Traction comment/question.
Thread Starter
New Member
Joined: 04-16-06
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
Traction comment/question.
The wife and I have been looking to get another car and are considering a Supercharged SS. People mention getting new bushings for the engine and transmission to help with traction and to stop wheel hop; but I haven't seen anything about making the rear suspension stiffer. The question I have after reading some of the posts is... wouldn't adding stiffer springs and/or shocks (in the rear) stop weight transfer and help with traction? I apologize if this has been discussed already. Thanks,
Logan
Logan
Senior Member
Joined: 11-14-05
Posts: 4,425
Likes: 0
From: www.mp5t.com
Originally Posted by logan2003cobra
The wife and I have been looking to get another car and are considering a Supercharged SS. People mention getting new bushings for the engine and transmission to help with traction and to stop wheel hop; but I haven't seen anything about making the rear suspension stiffer. The question I have after reading some of the posts is... wouldn't adding stiffer springs and/or shocks (in the rear) stop weight transfer and help with traction? I apologize if this has been discussed already. Thanks,
Logan
Logan
Thread Starter
New Member
Joined: 04-16-06
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
Originally Posted by Brian MP5T
The motor mounts are really 95% of problem. Trans Verse Mounted In Line Four and FWD with Gooey Soft Mounts makes for a Wheel Hop BONANZA!
Anyone else?
Member
Joined: 04-08-06
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
From: Calgary
Originally Posted by logan2003cobra
The wife and I have been looking to get another car and are considering a Supercharged SS. People mention getting new bushings for the engine and transmission to help with traction and to stop wheel hop; but I haven't seen anything about making the rear suspension stiffer. The question I have after reading some of the posts is... wouldn't adding stiffer springs and/or shocks (in the rear) stop weight transfer and help with traction? I apologize if this has been discussed already. Thanks,
Logan
Logan
Absolutely it will help to stiifen it up in the rear. That's why the heavy hitters in the fwd world use wheely bars.
Get coilovers(adjustable) and get new control arm bushings and motor mounts.
Adjust the rears to max height and max stiffness.
Senior Member
Joined: 10-08-05
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 0
From: AZ
I was wondering when someone was going to address this issue. I would love to see how much that improves 60' times.
From what I have read on here, the controll arm bushings virtually eliminate the wheel hop issue all together. The stockers have air gaps in them to "make the ride more tolerable on the street".
From what I have read on here, the controll arm bushings virtually eliminate the wheel hop issue all together. The stockers have air gaps in them to "make the ride more tolerable on the street".
Senior Member
Joined: 12-07-05
Posts: 964
Likes: 0
From: Indianapolis
I have addressed this issue with great success and will post result's soon. My set-up maintains stock componets but allows for adjustability to help traction by preventing rear-end squat. AKA weight transfer.
Stay tuned,
Stay tuned,
Member
Joined: 04-08-06
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
From: Calgary
[QUOTE=I would love to see how much that improves 60' times.
[/QUOTE]
It helps alot. I had lowering springs last year on stock struts, and even though it didn't help wheelhop, it helped weight transfer quite a bit.
This year I'm on adjustables, will see next week how it helps plant the car at the strip.
It will be a learning curve to get the front right, but the back is easy, high and stiff.
[/QUOTE]
It helps alot. I had lowering springs last year on stock struts, and even though it didn't help wheelhop, it helped weight transfer quite a bit.
This year I'm on adjustables, will see next week how it helps plant the car at the strip.
It will be a learning curve to get the front right, but the back is easy, high and stiff.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-03-05
Posts: 4,272
Likes: 0
From: South Bend , Indiana
I have no clue if it will do anything at all on FWD , BUT .....Im going to pop a airbag in each rear spring and see how she goes . I used to use a airbag in my pass. side rear spring on my Trans Am and it helped out in getting the car to launch straighter . I should know how it worked out by saturday . Im gonna try to thrash and get my clutch/flywheel in and broke in so I can race saturday .
Senior Member
Joined: 11-14-05
Posts: 4,425
Likes: 0
From: www.mp5t.com
Originally Posted by SilverSS/SC
I have no clue if it will do anything at all on FWD , BUT .....Im going to pop a airbag in each rear spring and see how she goes . I used to use a airbag in my pass. side rear spring on my Trans Am and it helped out in getting the car to launch straighter . I should know how it worked out by saturday . Im gonna try to thrash and get my clutch/flywheel in and broke in so I can race saturday .
I see something wierd here.
It will loadshift then bounce back?
I think it will help but in the long run adjustable shocks in the rear set on "Silly Stiff" might be the ticket.
Senior Member
Joined: 12-07-05
Posts: 964
Likes: 0
From: Indianapolis
Originally Posted by SilverSS/SC
I have no clue if it will do anything at all on FWD , BUT .....Im going to pop a airbag in each rear spring and see how she goes . I used to use a airbag in my pass. side rear spring on my Trans Am and it helped out in getting the car to launch straighter . I should know how it worked out by saturday . Im gonna try to thrash and get my clutch/flywheel in and broke in so I can race saturday .
I see something wierd here.
It will loadshift then bounce back?
I think it will help but in the long run adjustable shocks in the rear set on "Silly Stiff" might be the ticket.
It will loadshift then bounce back?
I think it will help but in the long run adjustable shocks in the rear set on "Silly Stiff" might be the ticket.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-03-05
Posts: 4,272
Likes: 0
From: South Bend , Indiana
Originally Posted by FAST06SS
Already have done it!
The bags work like very stiff springs! The ****-end does not move, trust me
The bags work like very stiff springs! The ****-end does not move, trust me
Senior Member
Joined: 07-03-05
Posts: 4,272
Likes: 0
From: South Bend , Indiana
Your not a idiot , if youve never seen one the concept probabaly sounds wierd 
ITs a very basic concept . Its basically a rubber air bag , that goes inside the spring . They have a nipple to fill them with air . The more air you put in , the harder it becomes for the spring to compress .
Heres a pic of what they look like .
ITs a very basic concept . Its basically a rubber air bag , that goes inside the spring . They have a nipple to fill them with air . The more air you put in , the harder it becomes for the spring to compress . Heres a pic of what they look like .
Member
Joined: 04-08-06
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
From: Calgary
They will simply stop the rear end from squatting on launch, or greatly reduce it anyways.
On a fwd car, you don't want any weight transfer to the rear, it's precious weight needed for traction. Putting "bags" in the back would help stop the springs from compressing.
The bag would be full of air, sealed, which means very little compression.
The bag would have to burst or leak to allow weight transfer.
Think of it as putting an exercise ball behind your butt, and I shove you back.
The ball would stop your descent to the floor with air pressure.
On a fwd car, you don't want any weight transfer to the rear, it's precious weight needed for traction. Putting "bags" in the back would help stop the springs from compressing.
The bag would be full of air, sealed, which means very little compression.
The bag would have to burst or leak to allow weight transfer.
Think of it as putting an exercise ball behind your butt, and I shove you back.
The ball would stop your descent to the floor with air pressure.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-11-05
Posts: 2,533
Likes: 0
From: Houston
Ah, I understand now. That's pretty slick, are these "rubber bags" specifically designed for the application? Are they expensive? I'd LOVE to try a pair out when i can get back on my feet financially.
Senior Member
Joined: 12-26-05
Posts: 1,602
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
Has any one used these air bads yet? and can they be inflated enuff to actualy rase the rear of the car?
I have almost no wheel hop on the street but alot at the track. My 60' times sucked do to to no tracktion in 1st and the first 1/2 of second was killing my 1/4 times. My best 60' time was a 2.232. I want sub 2 second 60' times!
I was only able to get a 13.966 out of the car and I know its faster then that. I have more traction on the street then at the track. I thought I would be able to get more traction at the track but that was not the case at all.
Later
I have almost no wheel hop on the street but alot at the track. My 60' times sucked do to to no tracktion in 1st and the first 1/2 of second was killing my 1/4 times. My best 60' time was a 2.232. I want sub 2 second 60' times!
I was only able to get a 13.966 out of the car and I know its faster then that. I have more traction on the street then at the track. I thought I would be able to get more traction at the track but that was not the case at all.
Later
Junior Member
Joined: 04-26-05
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
From: Glendale, Arizona
Here's a post I made awhile back on SRT Forums. Yea, I know that SRT's and SS's are different, however the concepts are still the same.
So there are a number of cars out there putting down the HP for a high 10 second (or even lower) 1/4 mile pass, the problem is traction. Even with 26x8" slicks 1.8 60's seem to be the lowest we can manage.
Here's an article that does a good job of explaining WHAT we need to do, the question is HOW do we go about doing it:
http://www.overboost.com/story.asp?id=1319
So here's the main items from the article:
Get Your Car Stiff
The article talks about increasing the rear spring rate to help keep weight transfer to a minimum. The problem is, most of us (I'm assuming) want to keep their cars streetable... swapping out coil-over springs at the track isn't a viable option, so what can we do to stiffen up the rear at the track only?
Here's a couple of pictures of something I came up with, but didn't work. Yes, it make the car stiff, but without the dampening control needed to keep the car from hopping around. Which, once the front tires lost traction, is exactly what the car did:
http://www.azchatfield.net/miscpics/.../RearSusp1.jpg
http://www.azchatfield.net/miscpics/.../RearSusp2.jpg
The polyurethane was just too stiff. The concept may work, if instead of polyurethane, I can figure out some way of adding a bolt on helper spring that could be installed easily at the track and then removed to go back out on the street.
Another idea may be to use straps to preload the rear suspension, effectively making it a bit stiffer. Or perhaps some of those rubber spring inserts designed to give "new life" to old worn out coil springs.
Shocks Have Valves Too
Here the article talks about needing have the correct Compression and Rebound dampening. Most aftermarket coil-overs control both compression and rebound dampening together. What we need is a list of coil-overs that will allow us to control compression and rebound separately. Anyone know of coil-overs available for the SRT-4 that allow sepaparate control over the compression and rebound?
Also, some of us may already have coil-overs, which adjust both compression and rebound together. If this is the case, which way should they be adjusted front and rear? Stiff as possible in the rear and soft as possible in the front? The other way around? Something in the middle?
Baby's Got Back Doesn't Help in FWD Drag Racing
Next the article speaks to weight distribution. For street cars there isn't alot we can do. Make sure the trunk is empty, maybe pull out the rear seats. Every pound you can take out from behind the driver's seat increases the weight distribution on the front wheels.
The more adventurous of us may do things like remove the rear exhaust section (either permanently w/ a side exit, or only at the track). Maybe cut the steel floor out under the rear seat & where the spare tire depression is and replace it with .035" sheet aluminum. This mod would only be visible in the trunk and when the rear seat was pulled out.
Flex Your Way to Traction
The idea here is to remove as much flex in the rear suspension as possible. About the only thing we can do without too much modification is to add Polyurethane bushings.
For anyone that's done this, it's a PITA because all of the manufacturers require you to re-use the metal "cups" that house the stock bushings, unfortunately the stock bushings are molded into place. So cleaning these cups out so that the polyurethane ones fit is a chore. The best way seems to be to pry out most of the rubber bushing then use a torch to "burn out" all of the remaining rubber... a very smoky process. If anyone has a better way, please speak up!
Point Your Toes Out
Lastly, the article speakes to Tire Alignment. While a slight tow-out for the front tires is recommended in the article, I would not recommend this for a street car, unless you are comfortable driving it like that. With a slight tow-out, the car will be more apt to wander and it will affect the cornering characteristics of the car. Even if you are comfortable with it, think of anyone that you *might* loan your car to.
Other things can be done with the front end though, particularly if you don't autocross the car. The camber can be set to near 0 which will keep the tires flat to the ground, rather than slightly tilted.
So what are your thoughts and ideas. What have you tried and how did it work out? What are some other things we may think about? Anyone else have any "traction tips"?
Here's an article that does a good job of explaining WHAT we need to do, the question is HOW do we go about doing it:
http://www.overboost.com/story.asp?id=1319
So here's the main items from the article:
Get Your Car Stiff
The article talks about increasing the rear spring rate to help keep weight transfer to a minimum. The problem is, most of us (I'm assuming) want to keep their cars streetable... swapping out coil-over springs at the track isn't a viable option, so what can we do to stiffen up the rear at the track only?
Here's a couple of pictures of something I came up with, but didn't work. Yes, it make the car stiff, but without the dampening control needed to keep the car from hopping around. Which, once the front tires lost traction, is exactly what the car did:
http://www.azchatfield.net/miscpics/.../RearSusp1.jpg
http://www.azchatfield.net/miscpics/.../RearSusp2.jpg
The polyurethane was just too stiff. The concept may work, if instead of polyurethane, I can figure out some way of adding a bolt on helper spring that could be installed easily at the track and then removed to go back out on the street.
Another idea may be to use straps to preload the rear suspension, effectively making it a bit stiffer. Or perhaps some of those rubber spring inserts designed to give "new life" to old worn out coil springs.
Shocks Have Valves Too
Here the article talks about needing have the correct Compression and Rebound dampening. Most aftermarket coil-overs control both compression and rebound dampening together. What we need is a list of coil-overs that will allow us to control compression and rebound separately. Anyone know of coil-overs available for the SRT-4 that allow sepaparate control over the compression and rebound?
Also, some of us may already have coil-overs, which adjust both compression and rebound together. If this is the case, which way should they be adjusted front and rear? Stiff as possible in the rear and soft as possible in the front? The other way around? Something in the middle?
Baby's Got Back Doesn't Help in FWD Drag Racing
Next the article speaks to weight distribution. For street cars there isn't alot we can do. Make sure the trunk is empty, maybe pull out the rear seats. Every pound you can take out from behind the driver's seat increases the weight distribution on the front wheels.
The more adventurous of us may do things like remove the rear exhaust section (either permanently w/ a side exit, or only at the track). Maybe cut the steel floor out under the rear seat & where the spare tire depression is and replace it with .035" sheet aluminum. This mod would only be visible in the trunk and when the rear seat was pulled out.
Flex Your Way to Traction
The idea here is to remove as much flex in the rear suspension as possible. About the only thing we can do without too much modification is to add Polyurethane bushings.
For anyone that's done this, it's a PITA because all of the manufacturers require you to re-use the metal "cups" that house the stock bushings, unfortunately the stock bushings are molded into place. So cleaning these cups out so that the polyurethane ones fit is a chore. The best way seems to be to pry out most of the rubber bushing then use a torch to "burn out" all of the remaining rubber... a very smoky process. If anyone has a better way, please speak up!
Point Your Toes Out
Lastly, the article speakes to Tire Alignment. While a slight tow-out for the front tires is recommended in the article, I would not recommend this for a street car, unless you are comfortable driving it like that. With a slight tow-out, the car will be more apt to wander and it will affect the cornering characteristics of the car. Even if you are comfortable with it, think of anyone that you *might* loan your car to.
Other things can be done with the front end though, particularly if you don't autocross the car. The camber can be set to near 0 which will keep the tires flat to the ground, rather than slightly tilted.
So what are your thoughts and ideas. What have you tried and how did it work out? What are some other things we may think about? Anyone else have any "traction tips"?