JapEatr

iTrader: (9)

Amen... I truly have always felt connected to the car i drive and in control by knowing exaclty the distance required and the time required to stop, pass, evade, etc.\
the ability to process all of that and adapt to the road and traffic conditions is key to driving effectively

thehemi

Absolutely. I agree that knowing all this information is valuable.
Fortunately this is all info you can know in an automatic car, too.

Automatics work in a pre-determined pattern based on the speed
and throttle position (and probably other factors). They do not go
shifting gears randomly. Once you understand your automatic, it
is not hard at all to get the necessary gear shifts when needed.

I will admit, a manual does give you absolute control, but you DO
get control in an automatic. Assuming that there's no driver input
determining gear selection in an automatic is pretty ignorant.

PS- I'm not saying automatics are "better" than manuals. That's an
end user decision. I'm just making sure there are some facts being
spread rather than just blanket assumptions that manuals are king.

celicacobalt

im very surprised no one has mentioned that the auto twin turbo supra is stock for stock faster than the stick supra, just thought id throw that in

Maven

iTrader: (1)

I am not going to jump into this too deep but to say that automatics are not inherently weaker, or failure prone...99% of all auto trans failures are due to lack of maintenance...meaning filter and fluid changes or flushes...you have to remember the clutches that actually engage and disengae individual gears are immersed in the same fluid that the control valves and solenoids use...this means particualte matter (from clutch wear) is suspended in the fluid of the control circuits....also slipping a dry clutch in a manual trans does not offer the torque multiplication that a torque converter in an auto box does...this is because a torque ACTUALLY multiplies the torque input to it via a series of one way roller clutches and vanes of varying pitches...think of two fans facing each other...if both have the same exact blades when one turns on it will eventually force the other one to turn at the same speed...but if the blades are different it is possible to have the "driven" fan turn faster OR slower than the "drive" fan..this is the priciple of a torque converter...the converter is bolted to the engine and the outside portion of it is the "drive" fan...this part also runs the pump in the transmission...the internal portion of the converter...the turbine...is the "driven" fan and is spline to the transmission input shaft...it is this portion of the torque converter that actually moves the vehicle. torque converters can operate in positive or negative slip....positive slip is when the engine turns faster than input shaft...this occurs under heavy accel, and under torque multiplying situations...not all positive slip is torque multiplying.....negative slip occurs when the engine turns slower than the input shaft....this occurs on closed throttle deceleration, and under certain overdrive conditions...Also while many of you may think the torque converters only job is to slip it is actually more often than not trying to maintain zero slip...engine rpm and input shaft rpm are equal...this is possible because the torque converter has a clutch disc in it...otherwise called a locking torque converter...

The major downfall(if there is one) for the auto transmission is that it is very misunderstood...its just the "slush box" attached to the engine....even in dealerships technicians who dont spend a lot of time with their hands in red oil fall prey to misconceptions and the "black box" effect.....the best part is that very few of the people who claim autos are complicated or innefficient have little or no understanding of how they work, or for that matter even how the manual transmissions/clutches they praise operate....in the end there are very few fundemental differences between the two besides control strategy and engine coupling....even the once mystical planetary gear setup of the auto is now finding its way into into many manual boxes...why?? because its more efficient and easier to package.

That said I drive manuals because I prefer the ability to make my own decisions regarding operation(good or bad) and I enjoy the interaction with the vehicle.

clodhopper06

GM has a feature out now that may help solve this difference of opinion. i have seen it on some of the newer cars coming out and it is called manual shift mode. i know that the G6 has it. you can see on the shifter that there is the automatic "D" mode, but you can shift into manual mode for those impromptu races Here is a picture from the G6 website so you can see what i mean.
http://img225.echo.cx/my.php?image=bgimage302am.jpg

zinner

Amen

Lots of automatic transmission in production vehicles are tuned for a smooth ride and smooth shifts, not performance.

zinner

I have driven a 6 speed Acura TL with that auto stick feature. It really isn't even close to the same as a manual. Maybe I wasn't using it right but it still shifts for you (in manual mode) and doesn't let you downshift at certain times as well... Like instead of just whinning at the redline like a manual tranny does it shifts for you, so the whole time I was trying to drive and figure out how to shift the transmission is doing it for me still (in the manual mode). So your second guessing the cars computer who is second guesing you and I just ended up putting it in auto mode

Does the autostick transmission use the planetary gearset just like a regular auto. I can't imagine with a 6 speed orbital gear set looks like.

wesmanw02

Your experience with "auto-stick" its the same as many others. Its not anything like a real manual transmission, you're basically just telling the transmission what to do as opposed to actually doing it. Its the same as manually shifting through the gear pattern on a regular automatic, only difference is the ability to upshift and slighty quicker shift times.

I've also never seen a manu-matic that gave anywhere near full control. Most will shift as they please, so if you run up to redline and let off the throttle, they will upshift. Come to a stop in 2nd, and they will go back to 1st. Try to shift right at redline, and they will upshift prematurely.

I've driven and riden in plenty of powerful automatics, but none of them even came close to the feel of an true manual. As for "grabbing rubber in 3rd" in an automatic, it hardly involves any driver interaction at all, all you have to do is push the pedal to the floor. Now pulling off a perfect shift in a manual and getting rubber in 3rd is truly rewarding, its just not the same feeling in an auto

Interesting explanation, you seem to understand the internals of the TC pretty well.

However, your example of the fans points out one of the serious flaws of the Torque converter - there is no direct connection. Everything is driven solely by fluid, which doesn't transfer energy nearly as effectively as metal to metal contact.

Picture the fan example you gave -

Two fans facing each other, one fan is turned on while the other is idle. The air movement from the first fan causes the second fan to turn as well, most likely at a reduced speed. Now if you were to grab the second fan (originally idle) with your hand, you could stop it relatively easily. Its limited in energy by the air movement output of the first fan.

Now attatch the two fans together with a steel coupling. Whatever the first fan does, the 2nd fan does, and vice versa. Now try and stop the second fan with your hand. It has the same torque as the first, because of the direct connection. This setup is much more efficient and wastes little energy. See my point??

Maven

iTrader: (1)

Wes...it is not driven solely by fluid when the torque converter clutch is applied...as I stated, the pcm is constantly trying to keep slip to a minimum by locking the torque converter to allow a direct mechanical transfer of power, as opposed to the fluid shear method of a traditional or unlocked torque converter.

wesmanw02

Yes, but many vehicles don't engage the TC clutch until the car reaches a certain speed in overdrive. I see what you are saying about the PCM. I notice in my car that whenever I am cruising under light throttle, the PCM tries to keep the RPM's as low as possible. Doesn't always work (runs out of power) but at least it tries

As far as I know, my 4-speed Cavalier can lock the TC in both 3rd gear as well as 4th. You can feel when its locked, because the engine speed is consistantly proportional to the vehicle speed. Problem is that it will unlock with any slight change in throttle position, which kind of defeats the purpose. What they should do is program the TC clutch to lock at anything above a slight roll, much as a driver would do with a clutch in a manual. It would be much more efficient, but wouldn't be quite as smooth.

Maven

iTrader: (1)

Exactly Wes...the only real reason it doesnt lock in lower gears is because it would be difficult to keep running smooth....they want it to be locked up as much as possible, stay tuned GM is introducing auto transmissions that dont use a torque converter....its a sytem called Integrated Friction Launch....the engine is always linked directly to the trans and the internal clutches of the trans act EXACTLY like the clutch in a manual....

brianfcp

I think if you race the same two cars on a curvy racetrack, the man. will beat the auto. Thats just my guess.

man. = better mpg.
man. = less weight (fig).
man. = no need for trany filter change.
man. = better.

hehe

dnbguy86

[QUOTE=Maven]I am not going to jump into this too deep but to say that automatics are not inherently weaker, or failure prone...99% of all auto trans failures are due to lack of maintenance...meaning filter and fluid changes or flushes...you have to remember the clutches that actually engage and disengae individual gears are immersed in the same fluid that the control valves and solenoids use...this means particualte matter (from clutch wear) is suspended in the fluid of the control circuits....

Actually, your kinda wrong here. The clutch doesnt disengage or engage the individual gears here, the syncronizer's do that. The clutch itself only really engages or disenages the input shaft.

wesmanw02

Umm..he was talking about the internals of an automatic, not a manual


Sounds good to me, any type of direct-drive system has got to be better than a torque converter

Can't wait to start seeing these new transmissions in future vehicles, it will be a major improvement over current autos. Better performance and better efficiency at the same time, sounds good to me

Maven

iTrader: (1)

Actually Dnb, your wrong...first as Wes pointed out i was referring to the automatic, and in a manual the synchronisers dont engage or disengage individual gears, they do what there name implies, they synchronise the speeds of the two gears being shifted between so double clutching isnt need, the shift fork in conjuction with the movable gear hubs and dog rings(if equipped) actually engage gears....

Chevy4Life85

lol you should read someones sig before starting an arguement..... maven obviously knows his stuff.... i had a pretty good idea on how it works but thanks for clearing up a few thigns maven

olddude

Yeah, usually quite a while after 100K miles. My 1995 LT1 Caprice (big heavy car with a bunch of torque 330ft*lbs, about the worst abuse a tranny can take) is quietly rusting outside my window with 203K miles on the original transmission. It is getting along in years, shifts harder than it did 90K miles ago, so I figure the clutches are getting pretty worn, but it still gets me around just fine as a daily driver (70+ miles a day).

High torque cars usually perform better behind automatics and high reving, low torque cars generally do better behind manual transmissions. If you go back 40 years and look at the times of the big inch motor cars, you will see that statement holds true.

With the advent of roller cams (extending the powerband range from 2000 RPM to double that) the performing edge has moved more towards the manual transmision regardless of the low end torque of the vehicle. Having said that, an automatic will generally show its tail lights to a manual version of the same car up to the 1/8th mile. (again, in the higher torque motors)

A turbo car should be quicker with an automatic as it can spool against the torque converter and get into the power quicker. The SRT-4 and Cobalt SS (among others) uses a manual transmission because there is not a front wheel drive automatic that can take the torque of the engines.

Sorryociffer

I didn't read the whole thread but I will throw this in just in case it didn't make it.

If you are running a turbo, a well tuned auto will be a better match than a stick as the "dead time" between gears is much shorter and allows less lag. Not to mention no blown shifts. I will take a tiptronic or paddle shifted auto over a regular manual anyday. There will always be room for real manual lovers but the day of manuals being the "perfomance choice" are about numbered. The thing they still reign supreme in though is simplicity and overall durability (when not driven by some ham-fisted 2F2F punk wannabe.).

My .02
S.O.

I prefer autos in my cars and sticks in trucks.

alleycat58

Amen a MILLION times. Auto is also better in an autocross where speeds stay relatively low.

Wyoming_Bass

OK as far as the DRAG RACING high HP motors such as NHRA funny cars etc. They are neither a AUTO or a MANUAL. Has any of you watched a drag racer SHIFT? There are levers that they pull to switch the gears either 2 or 3 levers. That shifts the car.

I prefer a manual in a car but in a truck i would rather have an AUTO. (if anyone has shifted a truck with a manual you will understand) and i mean a pickup truck. And as far as ENGINE braking goes i have explained this before but ill do a refresher. I drive a 80000 pound cement truck now and have driven many big trucks as well. all the companys i have worked for there mechanics told us to down shift while braking to slow the truck down. it saves the clutch and helps with wear and tear. Hrrmmm if it was harder on the trans why would they have you do it? If done proper or 80% of proper it wont hurt a dayum thing. I am teaching my wife to drive a stick, she is learning how to use the clutch to up shift downshift and brake.

snowbred

i have an 2.4 ss auto, i only got it because of where i live and i do alot of driving.. its not easy sitting in traffic in the morning with a manual.. that said i think autos are begining to get better and over time probably replacing alot of manual trannies. TAke for example the VW DSG auto tranny which if im not mistaken is slightly faster than the manual tranny used in the new gti.

Zoomyjs

I had drivin auto for the last 6 years since i got my license, and in 3 different cars. 3 weeks ago i got my SS/SC and im not gonna lie, i miss my auto it was so easy to drive and i could do so many things at once without having to worry about going into nuetral to stop, or how EVERY time you need to get the car going theres still a possibility you could stall(even with experienced drivers they say sometimes still happens to them). its a lot more to worry about. plus i love my subs and loud music hench - i cant hear the engine. so the only time i know when to shift is by looking at my speedometer and RPM gauge which is also another hassle, where on my auto's **** i had no use for the RPM gauge i only ever had to check speed but not to slow down. Now that i have a manual car, i still stall once in a while. maybe 2-5 times a day. still learning how to drive it properly, i can at least get from point a-b. i had the cobalt SS auto which i then traded for the SS/SC. One very nice thing about manual is the mileage. i can drive a LOT more on one tank of gas then that auto ever could. its strange how the dealer said i would be getting less mileage but **** im getting almost twice the mileage i was, mostly because in an auto when you drive, it goes through every gear to the top RPM of it. in my manual, i can stay at 2kRPM my entire trip if i want using the gears. less RPM = less engine speed = less gas usage. so that is one plus. another good thing of my manual if just being in the SS/SC and putting your hand on that stick makes me feel like a racer lol. just is cool. i remember the few months i was driving my auto i always had my hand on the stick just to feel like it was a manual because i wanted the SS/SC so badly. in most respects i love the manual, i will miss my auto, but the only thing i still dont like about manual is all the work. im in a parking lot.. have to brake, hit clutch, toss in nuetral, brake again, wait, put in clutch, put gear in first, release clutch only to press it in again to get into second! On the auto... brake, wait, press accelerator. so yeah, lots of work on manual compared to auto. however the SS/SC only comes in manual, and i love the car so much im doing everything i can to make sure i become a manual driving pro. so myself, in the past, being PRO-100% auto! "manual sucks" guy, have turned over to the dark side and its not so bad. by the end of this summer im sure i'll be able to drive it just fine so im ready for winter. its just all a matter of pretty much, what transmission you were raised to drive with, and how stubborn you are to change ;p

HackAbuse

My auto is good to 325hp according to GM, thats all I care about

joeworkstoohard

I've never found autos to be an more or less reliable than a good manual. the trick is to not beat on your cars. GM autos are generally made to be smooth shifting quiet everyday transmissions and they work well at it. show me any other full size front drive automatic with 300hp.

watch some moron driving his 5 speed 88 CRX and not having any idea about matching the gears when he shifts... a clutch is to make up for imperfect shifting and for dead stop accleration. an auto matic is constantly doing something during it's movement. the trick with ANY car is to maintain it properly, what car makers don't tell you is that the 100,000 mile service schedule is stretching it. they do that so that the car has a lower TCO up to 100k. i'd say that any transmission needs a good fluid flush and fill every 40-50k or so, more if you drive it hard. the same is true of diff oil, if your car has a seperate supply for that.

Badmunky

Im not going to say one is beter then the other but they each have there place.
Auts are good for a few things. Geting mom to and from work is one of them.
As for raceing if your going to turn the wheel there is no question about it, an auto is not what you want. But if drag racing is your thing then the auto is more cosistent but at a price.
It dosnt last as long, its alot more money, and it will slow you down unless you have alot of power and are runing some good times. Now this is on a track.
On the street you can expect ot get less fuel mileg. spend moer to buy the thing, and have to spend alot more to have it serviced the right way.
Manuals also have there place in every day driveing. They get beter fuel mileg, they tend to last longer, the cost less to buy, there cheaper to mainatne, and if you know what your doing there more fun to drive.
As for the track they are just as fast or faster then an auto if your not making big power down the drag strip and there always going to be faster in the twistys.

But this is just my 2 cents. Think what you want.

One last thing to think about is that most auto transmisions need to be flushed, have there filter changed and refilled at about 50K. Now less then 30% of the people that own an auto actualy do this. And it is one if the resons that the auto trans has a reputation for not lasting long.
My mom and my dad got a new tauho in 95. My mom did the trans services and the truck strill drives just fine with 134K on the clock. My dad on the other hand did not. At 76K his trans went. He got it fixed and at 154K it Went agen. He traided it for a new one.
Both trucks where drive about the same and they both pulled a bout all the time.
Total my mom spent so far on her trans : about 450. (It needed a senser a year ago)
Total my dad spent befor traid in: About 3700 with tax.
Total I spent on my cavailer in 108K with a 5 speed. 0!!!!!! And not geting the auto saved me 850 when i got the car.

Later