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11-12-2011, 06:46 PM
#7
I dont understand the switch to the G6 knuckles......slower steering, different roll center... Why change them? Also why would you cryo treat aluminum? it doesnt have the same makeup as steel (duh.) and the same transformations dont occur in aluminum that can make it beneficial in steel. Id much rather (and have) just shot peen my knuckles.
Last edited by Maven; 11-13-2011 at 12:05 PM. Reason: no need for all the question marks :lol:
11-12-2011, 08:02 PM
#8
G6 Spindles are identical to LNF except their a bit heavier duty in critical areas. As has been done for years in all kinds of racing Cyro treating on aluminum makes it stronger. Heres a link to read up on it
Contact Controlled Thermal
Racing
Cryogenic Processing and Racing
Over 50% of the cars starting a NASCAR Sprint CupŽ race are running parts treated by Controlled Thermal Processing, Inc.
Whether you race cars, boats, or airplanes cryogenic processing can reduce the cost of your racing and help make sure you are running at the end of the race. Racing engines, transmissions, drive lines, suspension springs and more respond to cryogenic processing by improving performance, reliability, and durability. If you want to race for less money, you need to use cryogenic processing. Over 50% of the Sprint Cup racing teams do, and now many racing parts manufacturers are using Controlled Thermal Processing, Inc. to not only cryogenically treat their products, but to help them optimize the metallurgy of their parts.
Cryogenic processing is unique in that it reduces the cost of racing and makes the car more competitive at the same time. Many parts of the car respond to cryogenic processing. Cryogenic processing has been proven and continues to be proven race after race. Cryogenic processing allows a race team to win consistently, which is the key to winning championships.
Cryogenic processing has proven applications in every form of automotive, aircraft, and boat racing. Virtually any part that is stressed or worn during a race can benefit from cryogenic processing.
One definite area where cryogenics excels is that it reduces residual stress. Why is this important? We've found that many parts harbor residual stresses that are relieved with the heat and vibration of extreme use. This means that they change size and shape in the engine. By cryogenic processing relieves these stresses, preventing the changes.
Contact Controlled Thermal
Racing
Cryogenic Processing and Racing
Over 50% of the cars starting a NASCAR Sprint CupŽ race are running parts treated by Controlled Thermal Processing, Inc.
Whether you race cars, boats, or airplanes cryogenic processing can reduce the cost of your racing and help make sure you are running at the end of the race. Racing engines, transmissions, drive lines, suspension springs and more respond to cryogenic processing by improving performance, reliability, and durability. If you want to race for less money, you need to use cryogenic processing. Over 50% of the Sprint Cup racing teams do, and now many racing parts manufacturers are using Controlled Thermal Processing, Inc. to not only cryogenically treat their products, but to help them optimize the metallurgy of their parts.
Cryogenic processing is unique in that it reduces the cost of racing and makes the car more competitive at the same time. Many parts of the car respond to cryogenic processing. Cryogenic processing has been proven and continues to be proven race after race. Cryogenic processing allows a race team to win consistently, which is the key to winning championships.
Cryogenic processing has proven applications in every form of automotive, aircraft, and boat racing. Virtually any part that is stressed or worn during a race can benefit from cryogenic processing.
One definite area where cryogenics excels is that it reduces residual stress. Why is this important? We've found that many parts harbor residual stresses that are relieved with the heat and vibration of extreme use. This means that they change size and shape in the engine. By cryogenic processing relieves these stresses, preventing the changes.
11-12-2011, 09:12 PM
#11
The reason cryo treatment works so well on steel, is because steels(particularly heat treated ones) have certain amounts of a particular type of iron(austenite) in them that the extreme cold of the cryo procedure transforms it into a different and stronger crystalline structure.(martensite) Aluminum, doesnt have much iron in it obviously, so this transformation to a different structure doesnt occur, while there are some changes in the structure in aluminum following extreme cold quenching or cold working, it primarily results in a finer grain which primarily just improves machinability. All your sanding of the knuckle probably provided a greater level of reliability through reduction of stress risers than the cryo did.
Every G6 knuckle Ive seen has a slightly different length steering arm then the LNF pieces and results in an increased steering ratio.
Every G6 knuckle Ive seen has a slightly different length steering arm then the LNF pieces and results in an increased steering ratio.
11-12-2011, 09:47 PM
#12
And even with all the different cryo treatment places out there and all the people who swear by it there is actually quite a bit written about how cryo has minimal positive affects beyond surface durability (as in wear items) and the ability to stay in its desired shape. Virtually everything you read about cryo is 99% marketing and 1% science hiding somewhere. I see so many of these inexpensive cryo treatment places and I always wonder how they perform such a time intensive procedure for so little money.....then it strikes me....they probably dont make it time intensive, a quick dip to -300 is probably all youre paying for. Even though the procedures in the treatment are just as important if not more so than the temperature
And as far as the link you gave providing information for me to read up on, Id point out that it doesnt show any testing, nor does it specifially talk about aluminum. But I know (and can probably find the link if needed) that no less an organization than NASA performed studies on cryo treating aluminum and found no scientifically significant increase in fatigue strength of aluminum from cryo treating.
And as far as the link you gave providing information for me to read up on, Id point out that it doesnt show any testing, nor does it specifially talk about aluminum. But I know (and can probably find the link if needed) that no less an organization than NASA performed studies on cryo treating aluminum and found no scientifically significant increase in fatigue strength of aluminum from cryo treating.
Last edited by Maven; 11-12-2011 at 10:01 PM.
11-13-2011, 05:53 AM
#13
The knuckles Im using have all the bolt holes in the same exact location as the LNF knuckles/ Many drag racers running automatic transmissions have found that treating their cases provides longer life to the trans itself. Been doing it for years.
11-13-2011, 06:03 AM
#14
Cryogenic Processing
Nonferrous Metals
Cryogenically treated nonferrous metals will exhibit longer wear and more durability. During the metal-making process (aluminum, brass, stainless, and titanium), when solidification takes place, some molecules get caught in a random pattern. But molecules do move about at subzero and deep cryogenic temperatures, albeit slowly. Liken it if you will to water freezing or crystallizing as it turns to ice. The molecules do move and form into a tighter, realigned pattern. When returned to room temperature, the molecules stay in the new relationship producing less random and even spacing, which in turn reduces the open areas between the grid matrixes to one another. The resulting product shows a better wear pattern and a bonding of molecules to one another. This process is a one-time process that treats the part all the way through; it is not just a surface treatment.The other effect is a smoothing action on the surface of the material being processed. During the realignment, the molecules at the surface also are closing ranks which results in a structural change in the surface. The peaks and valleys don't disappear, but they do flatten out considerably. This causes less friction and less wear.
Nonferrous Metals
Cryogenically treated nonferrous metals will exhibit longer wear and more durability. During the metal-making process (aluminum, brass, stainless, and titanium), when solidification takes place, some molecules get caught in a random pattern. But molecules do move about at subzero and deep cryogenic temperatures, albeit slowly. Liken it if you will to water freezing or crystallizing as it turns to ice. The molecules do move and form into a tighter, realigned pattern. When returned to room temperature, the molecules stay in the new relationship producing less random and even spacing, which in turn reduces the open areas between the grid matrixes to one another. The resulting product shows a better wear pattern and a bonding of molecules to one another. This process is a one-time process that treats the part all the way through; it is not just a surface treatment.The other effect is a smoothing action on the surface of the material being processed. During the realignment, the molecules at the surface also are closing ranks which results in a structural change in the surface. The peaks and valleys don't disappear, but they do flatten out considerably. This causes less friction and less wear.
11-13-2011, 01:08 PM
#15
See the issue I had with why you cyo'd your knuckles was that I feel its just wasted money. Knuckle dont require a more wear resistant surface and since youre not machining them and no one I have ever heard of has ever complained about a warped knuckle I dont see the point ( wear resistance and refined crystalline structure are about the only things scientifically proven or theorized to occur during cryo treatment to any material) You need a higher fatigue strength, cryo treating aluminum does not increase its fatigue strength, thats a plain and simple fact.
Your "description" of what occurs to non-ferrous metals is merely the marketing blurb from a cryo processor. Like i said before, no less an organization than NASA has performed tests on aluminum and found no significant increase in fatigue strength. Also of note is that there is no international materials or process standards for Cryo treatment. Meaning there is no accountability, no way to be confident that product from one source is treated even remotely close to that from another source.
Your "description" of what occurs to non-ferrous metals is merely the marketing blurb from a cryo processor. Like i said before, no less an organization than NASA has performed tests on aluminum and found no significant increase in fatigue strength. Also of note is that there is no international materials or process standards for Cryo treatment. Meaning there is no accountability, no way to be confident that product from one source is treated even remotely close to that from another source.