intense_SS

because i hate when 2.2's and 2.4's brag about their intakes and exhaust like its gonna do something for their cars....this guy who did the turbo i give respect to but i was just stating that he still has more work to do to beat modded ss/sc's!!!! thats all.....but i hate you guys that mod ur 2.2's and still cant keep up with civics and other 160 hp cars!!!! y buy a 2.2 and put an intake and exhaust on your car and brag that is fast?? your no longer a tuner then ur a ricer and thats y cobalts get bad names for themselves!!!!! people like me get respect for the cobalt world!!!!

spartancobalt

^^^^ arn't we a lil cocky... ^^^^

celicacobalt

you need to calm down, ill be putting down about 270whp in a week and im sure i could take your ss/sc. all it takes is money to make somethong fast and the 2.2 once turboed is just as good when it builds the internals

RollermanDan

Look anything like this? ...

06_ion2

i agree he came in here and started jacking! the 2.2 world is slowly growing and he doesnt like it.. oh well lol

NJHK

Sway do you have a picture of yours?

D4u2s0t

i've NEVER seen anyone brag about their 2.2 or 2.4 being fast because they put an intake or exhaust on... people like you get respect for the cobalt world?? who cares what people can and can't keep up with?

i'm assuming you're just saying this to get a rise out of people, so let's stop hijacking the thread... yea, your 279whp is soooooooo respectable!!

IonNinja

guys you know better...please ignore the flamebait

fast cars don't reflect anything more than money...not car knowledge or maturity.

Sw4y1313

Well my car is still in the parking lot and i dont have a ride there right now. I will have it at my dads shop tomorrow, so i will have pictures. Its not completely seperated, its just cracked from the bottom up at the seams. It doesnt look nearly as bad as that picture. We will see tho. Ill show pics of it in the car, then removed. I dont think it will take me long to remove it. I just hope i have all the tools to do it.

LewiSS

It's certainly not my place to say. But I've seen the engine. Nothing about a turbo could have caused the engine to throw a rod so violently that the block is almost torn in two, and the top of the rod and piston are completey gone (not even any debris).

What about a massive oil leak to the turbo? Well, no oil in an engine can certainly cause a thrown rod. But one of the distinctive features of such a failure is the rod bottom will be welded to the crank (which causes it to snap since it stops turning), and all the other bearings will show severe wear and galling. The remaining rod piece turns freely on the crank, and there is no sign of such oil starvation.

What about massive over-boost? the turbo in that kit might make 30 PSi under uncontrolled conditions (not sure if the 2.2 can put out enough exhaust to reach that level, however). Generally a run-away turbo will self-destruct. Really massive boost will cause a lot of detonation, which causes piston failure. Generally if a piston grenades, the rod will stay intact. There is no sign on the other pistons of any stress at all.

I even considered the possibility of hydraulic lock. Could the 5th injector have failed open, sending enough fuel into the cylinder to lock it and cause this damage? At high revs, the time between the intake valve opening and closing (the time available to fill the cylinder with fuel) is too short to fill it even with that injector running wide open. Plus, if it stuck open, the engine would quit immediately when the mixture went below about 9:1 (it fails to burn when it's too rich).

The only thing that can cause a failure like that is severe overreving. Since the engine has a rev limiter, the only thing that can cause overreving like that (that I know of) is shifting into a lower gear by mistake.

I wasn't in the car. I'm not saying anything about the driver. I'm just pointing out that the forensics on the remains don't point to anything to do with the turbo.

Why am I so interested in this situation? Why did I take the time for such an inestigation (including running some calculations with my calculator on fuel flow, valve timing, revs and such)? My car goes into Alpine's shop in a week or two for a turbo kit. I wanted to make DAMN SURE the kit was safe before spending all that money just to blow up an engine.

I trust John Conchie's experience, and I trust Alpine's kits. You and I weren't in that car. I'm not going to bad mouth Alpine unless I have proof there is a problem (and since they have thousands of my dollars in their bank right now, if I even suspected a problem you can bet I'd be all over them and this board!).

We all have to make our own decisions and reach a level of trust with our suppliers. But, please, let's be careful about bad-mouthing any supplier from second-hand information. I know it's not always possible to obtain your own first-hand info, but I try to keep an open mind. You have no reason to trust my opinion any more than anyone elses, for that matter. But it's difficult for any supplier to defend themselves (rightly or wrongly) in a situation like this. And Alpine was working hard to get that car running this evening when I stoped by there, which says something, IMHO. I do feel genuinely sorry for the poor owner.

That actually does sound like too much pressure, not an explosion. I recant my theory (in this case). These intakes appear to be welded from 2 pieces. I wonder if the plastic welding quality varies a lot? After all, they certainly weren't designed and tested for pressure.

And Alpine has an aluminum replacement in the works for high-boost situations. I'd also try the Saab manifold. My system won't be a threat to the stocker, however.,

Speed Mafia

Man i love reading your post "LewisSS" as i dont know you that well but i can say your word means allot and you do your Research and you are correct...Alpine makes nice stuff and john would not be around some damn 30+ years if he didnt know what he was doing!

all it boils down to is Duane didnt tune for the new setup...on the old setup it was tuned for that specific design...no problems and i am sure there was not a day duane didnt do WOT pulls...but on the new setup with no tuning changes Duane had a little pop to the manifold...so lesson learned...

take out some fuel and add more at the top if needed...simple fix!

As for SS/SC Vs. Turbo 2.2 LS/ Turbo SS 2.4 ...wont even go there...speed costs money and the person with the most money wins!

trust me...for 24K i could make me a car that will slap around a SS/SC all day long...but that is not what this is about...some guys have money for a SS/SC some guys dont...some guys like to mod there own stuff some dont...Perfect example is i was looking at C6's vettes this weekend and C6 Z06's and i personally would rather got with a LS2 C6 rather then a Z06 as i can do twin turbo's on the LS2 and slap around a Z06 all day and save hella DOE! but to each there own!

NightriderCobaltSS

It is a shame the 1st documented 2.2 turbo blew up. but you gonna get it back together right ?

Speed Mafia

I dont know about blew up... sure the manifold "Popped" but again that was because he changed his setup but didnt change the tune...always will have problems if you change parts and dont change your tune...

Hell i dont know how many SS/SC i have seen blew up because someone went with a super small pulley, exhaust, intake...and didnt change there tune and then wonder why the motor knocks?...

slowbalt19

well since my car blew up around 4500 rpms i doubt i "over reved", 2nd there were some mishaps during the final few hours before i left the shop, one being that they did not hook up the vac hose to the wastegate and went for a "test " and my car came back in a major limp mode cuz of the boost spike, but they way i look at it is that parts are mass produced and sh*t happens,

KMKRacing

dude that is insane, wonder what could be done with the ss along those lines

Sw4y1313

My car pulled so well at the top end, but i need to pull some fuel at the lower end. It was bogged down a tad when the exhaust was opened up. the smt6 must have added fuel to the added air, but too much. Nothing a quick tune can fix. I just need to get the new manifold out here. Pictures coming in about 2 hours. Ill have the car at my dads shop at 5:30MST. So expect pictures just after that. We shall see what really caused it =P Before i left alpines shop, i asked him what would need to be done to push about 15psi. John told me pistons and intake manifold. He said the plastic manifold would blow at around 11psi. Also better fuel pump to supply the fuel for the 5th injector and 4 stock injectors.

Im contemplating just throwing new pistons/rods in there while its sitting. Might as well right? ill definitely have the money here on the 30th, unless my tax return comes in before that.

TCarter

If youve got the car torn apart, and you have the money. Upgrade the internals as much as you can.

Ive heard the connecting rods on the 2.2 are really strong and can handle 350hp(dont quote me), but pistons is a must, rods would be nice, a turbo specific camshaft would be awesome, new springs, valves, and ya.

The plastic intake is the weak link, and it really wouldnt be hard to make one out of metal or aluminum.....but i guess you cut costs where you can.

back when i had intake, headers, full exhaust, cams and tune before my accident, ive beat stock SS/SC's in my 2.4.


Granted he spun his tires in 1st, like all SS/SC's do, and mine hooked up. But i think i beat him by .2 in the 1/4.

Now im bone stock again with the muffler delete.


But in short, if your runnin a stock 2.4 or 2.2, and throw a SRI or CAI on it...it does liven the car up quite a bit, my car felt like it had soo much more power. was it enough to go try and beat a mustang or camaro? no. (but i can beat v6 stangs and camaro's(stock for stock).

Was it enough to go and have fun with my car and race other people who revved at me? yes.


So yes. It does make you think your car is "Fast" which in reality, it is. The cobalts (even the base models) are still alot faster/quicker than alot of other cars out there stock of the same class.

I think I need to make all the 2.0 guys that brag about them being the fastest car a sticker that says: "Ego Inside"....

im waiting for someone to buy a license plate that says: "Ego Bst"

But in short, yes. a 270whp Cobalt SS/SC is very respectable....in the terms of sport compacts. But, there are 400+whp civics as daily drivers too....

In UT, there were quite a few 300+whp civics/crx's that roamed around....and there was the standard stock civics with body kits/gauges/muffler that run 19Sec 1/4 miles, but sound like they ran it in 10.2

06_ion2

correction 2.2s rods are weak as hell pistons are kinda also i wouldn't push anymore than 225whp on a 5speed because thats about 264hp at the crank.. rods failed at 283bhp but that was under high nitrous shot and tons of trq.. i just wouldn't myself go over 225whp just to be safe.. plus theres no true tune out for the 2.2s as of yet other than a piggyback or standalone..

NJHK

Straight non-pressive nitrous shots and boost pressure can effect the force on a connecting rod differently. Boost pressure is typically more gardual instead of instant.

Also, the GM Supercharger kits they make for the J-bodies puts you (atleast my friend dyno'd) in the 230 area. That's over 250 crank. There have been many of turbocharged ECOTEC guys who have pushed farther and ran just fine.

Sw4y1313

Ok, here are some shots of the manifold. These are with my pocketpc so dont expect super fancy. Ill be goin to my dads shop all day this week to take it off.




In this pic, you can see the stress it caused on the upper part of the manifold, causing it to crack.

Here is the full situation:

I was racing a srt4 friday night. I got back to the parking lot, and let my car idle for about 10 mins. Dain and I then decided to go to our buddies party. So we headed off. As i pulled outta the parking lot and got across the intersection, i was at about 3k rpms, and POP. The engine was reving at about 3-4k with my foot off the pedal so i shut it off and pulled to the side of the road. I popped the hood thinkin maybe it was a piston or something but couldnt because the engine sounded fine even after the pop. I looked and saw that the manifold had split. It didnt smell funny or any different then before. I then proceeded to push it into another parking lot so i could then get it towed.

Cobalt_Supercharged

Ouch.

Since the SMT-6 is capable of adjust the fuel trim, why are they using an extra injector. Why not use a new injector harness and swap to the LSJ injectors? Having a 5th injector spraying fuel into the manifold is limited to it's possibilities and is not that efficient IMO.

NJHK

Sucks but very odd.

I don't know...my head hurts.

Sw4y1313

It can be done that way. Im actually working on that because i would rather have 4 60lb'ers in there instead of 1 large one. I could then get an easy replacement manifold and be set. Tuning would start from scratch though.

In about a week, ill have 3k. I plan on doing this all now cuz i just want to get it over with. Ill go 4 60lb injectors(if the stock computer wont freak) and an aluminum intake manifold. Pistons/Rods/ and clutch. That should cover me for about 15psi.

NJHK

I don't know if you would even need 60 # injectors bro...that's incredibley large.

Also, with having large injectors like that, you can only take away so much fuel with a piggyback. That will be your limitation and control flaw.

I still think your manifold issue was a freak incident. Never have I seen this happened with any other turbo 2.2 ECOTEC. Good luck with the saab intake manifold.

Cobalt_Supercharged

What Adam said. I think 42's would be about as far as you could push the altered metering. That is almost cutting the MAF signals in half.