engine dropped a valve after dealer service, warranty wont cover repairs
06-22-2008, 05:26 AM
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engine dropped a valve after dealer service, warranty wont cover repairs
i had a few threads on here, instead of updating them, im consolidating them into 1. (cliff notes are in blue towards bottom of this post)
4/22/08 - ticking sound in engine, 4th gear grinding - brought it in to the dealer, found out it was 2 defective lifters. dealer replaced exhaust cam, head, the 2 lifters, and also 4th gear synchronizer, under warranty.
5/31/08 - finally got my car back, clutch sounds like its scraping against something, car dies every once in a while when coming to a stop like the clutch isnt releasing. clouds of white smoke are coming out of the exhaust, had to keep adding oil (2 qts. per day) to keep it at normal oil level.
6/2/08 - i call service manager, he advises me to keep driving it, white smoke is normal, just keep it topped off with oil, and i say okay.
6/4/08 - car wouldnt start, had to find a ride to work, came home, had to pump the gas pedal for some reason to get it to run, and it was making a really loud chatter and HEAPS of white smoke are pouring out the exhaust. called the service manager once again, told him i cant afford to be putting 2 qts of oil into this car wach day. he says "oh wow, it looks like it has a problem. bring the car in ASAP" took the car in to service, got a loaner car.
6/6/08 - service manager calls, tells me warranty wont cover the damage. a valve hit the piston at 6100 RPMs. GM says warranty wont cover it because of abuse. i say, 6100 RPMs? at a 6500 RPM redline, thats not abuse. and thats obviously when i was trying to pass somebody or something like that. thats not how i drive it daily. service manager doesn't seem like he's even listening to what i'm saying, later, he says the damage is $7000, he can give me a deal and only charge me $4900. I ask if he can get the head removed to see exactly what needs to be done, and he says it'll be $600 and anymore work done to the car comes out of my pocket. he tells me he should have charged me for the work already done on the car, but since he didn't write up a "ticket" he has to let it slide. the service manager also tells me to give the loaner car back TODAY. i tell him i am going to hire a lawyer, he laughs and says "That'll cost more than fixing the car". I tell him I can't give the car back as I need a car that is running to get to work and back, and he tells me that that's not his problem. so i tell him to have the car ready on monday, im coming to get it picked up. called GM customer service, filed a complaint, called a lawyer, they cant help me cause its under $8000 in damage, resulting a small claims case.
6/7/08 - Filed complaint with BBB
6/8/08 - GM customer service cannot take this any further, as they have discussed this problem with the district warranty claims rep and he has rejected these repairs as covered under warranty.
6/9/08 - got the car back, drove it to a mechanic, with the same white smoke and power loss issues as before. mechanic pulled off the valve cover and removed the spark plugs, with the following results:
#1 : 60-65 psi compression, coolant burned on spark plug, fresh oil present on spark plug
#2 : 60-65 psi compression, fresh oil present on spark plug, smoke plumed out of the cylinder on spark plug removal
#3 : 80-90 psi compression, fresh oil present on spark plug, smoke plumed out of the cylinder on spark plug removal
#4 : 60-65 psi compression, coolant burned on spark plug, fresh oil present on spark plug
checked oil level, the oil level is below the dipstick. (dipstick came out clean)
one of the intake valves on cylinder #3 firmly stuck in the head, not sure if the bottom is bent, but there is no spring/retainer/rocker arm at all for this valve.
mechanic thinks head gasket is blown, due to either the head bolts not being torqued down correctly, or the same head gasket was used, (the head gaskets on this car need to be replaced each and every time the head is taken off) also, he thinks that the head wasn't reassembled properly, causing one of the valves to fall into the cylinder. he also informed me that there is coolant leaking where the transmission meets the engine. (chevy tech used a silicone-based gasket maker material, not a real chevrolet gasket.)
later, i find out that the chevy tech that worked on my car, was just fired.
6/11/08 - received a call from XXX, she tells me on behalf of GM, she apologizes for this and she's going to research this further. She advises me that she is working closely with a BBB agent, XXX, to come to a result within 40 days (7/21/08). I tell her I want GM to buy the car back from me, because I don't want any future problems with the warranty or the car itself. But, thinking about it further, I really just want it fixed as I have alot of money into the car, and it is my first real daily driver car, ive become accustomed to the handling, the brakes, the characteristics of the car and so on.
6/16/08 - BBB agent calls me and gets my side of what happened.
cliff notes:
had service done to car under warranty, received the car back in bad bad shape, took it back in, and the dealer voided my warranty. seeking legal action against GM.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
FUN LITTLE FACTS!
If the BBB can't get me what i want, im suing General Motors for the price of the new engine, labor, excess gas used to get to work (my girlfriend has been taking me and as a result, is driving twice the miles i had to), and all the oil i have put in the car thus far, to keep it at a normal level.
i am not driving the car at all, except from the dealer, to the mechanic, and to a new insurance company, as they could NOT come to my house and take pictures they HAD to have me bring the car to them...
to avoid more problems with the car and the dealer, my preference is to take it to a reputable auto shop, and have the engine either rebuilt, or a new engine put in the car, whichever is 1. more reliable, and 2. cheaper, in order of importance.
i have not received word from the mechanic about the clutch problem, nor the bottom end of the engine.
there are aftermarket parts installed on this vehicle, but the engine has always been left alone. the aftermarket parts consist of rims and tires, and suspension upgrades, such as coil springs, rear anti-sway bar, and front strut bar.
to top it all off, my girlfriend is 9 3/4 months pregnant, due on 6/25/08 and she has to wake up every morning at 5:30 am to take me to work, im not on her car insurance, so i cant just drive her car to work. it's also costing us double the amount of gas it usually costs me to get to work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll be updating this as often as i can. I plan to get every penny i spent on rides to work, oil, and any and all other expenses paid due to the disablement of my vehicle.
4/22/08 - ticking sound in engine, 4th gear grinding - brought it in to the dealer, found out it was 2 defective lifters. dealer replaced exhaust cam, head, the 2 lifters, and also 4th gear synchronizer, under warranty.
5/31/08 - finally got my car back, clutch sounds like its scraping against something, car dies every once in a while when coming to a stop like the clutch isnt releasing. clouds of white smoke are coming out of the exhaust, had to keep adding oil (2 qts. per day) to keep it at normal oil level.
6/2/08 - i call service manager, he advises me to keep driving it, white smoke is normal, just keep it topped off with oil, and i say okay.
6/4/08 - car wouldnt start, had to find a ride to work, came home, had to pump the gas pedal for some reason to get it to run, and it was making a really loud chatter and HEAPS of white smoke are pouring out the exhaust. called the service manager once again, told him i cant afford to be putting 2 qts of oil into this car wach day. he says "oh wow, it looks like it has a problem. bring the car in ASAP" took the car in to service, got a loaner car.
6/6/08 - service manager calls, tells me warranty wont cover the damage. a valve hit the piston at 6100 RPMs. GM says warranty wont cover it because of abuse. i say, 6100 RPMs? at a 6500 RPM redline, thats not abuse. and thats obviously when i was trying to pass somebody or something like that. thats not how i drive it daily. service manager doesn't seem like he's even listening to what i'm saying, later, he says the damage is $7000, he can give me a deal and only charge me $4900. I ask if he can get the head removed to see exactly what needs to be done, and he says it'll be $600 and anymore work done to the car comes out of my pocket. he tells me he should have charged me for the work already done on the car, but since he didn't write up a "ticket" he has to let it slide. the service manager also tells me to give the loaner car back TODAY. i tell him i am going to hire a lawyer, he laughs and says "That'll cost more than fixing the car". I tell him I can't give the car back as I need a car that is running to get to work and back, and he tells me that that's not his problem. so i tell him to have the car ready on monday, im coming to get it picked up. called GM customer service, filed a complaint, called a lawyer, they cant help me cause its under $8000 in damage, resulting a small claims case.
6/7/08 - Filed complaint with BBB
6/8/08 - GM customer service cannot take this any further, as they have discussed this problem with the district warranty claims rep and he has rejected these repairs as covered under warranty.
6/9/08 - got the car back, drove it to a mechanic, with the same white smoke and power loss issues as before. mechanic pulled off the valve cover and removed the spark plugs, with the following results:
#1 : 60-65 psi compression, coolant burned on spark plug, fresh oil present on spark plug
#2 : 60-65 psi compression, fresh oil present on spark plug, smoke plumed out of the cylinder on spark plug removal
#3 : 80-90 psi compression, fresh oil present on spark plug, smoke plumed out of the cylinder on spark plug removal
#4 : 60-65 psi compression, coolant burned on spark plug, fresh oil present on spark plug
checked oil level, the oil level is below the dipstick. (dipstick came out clean)
one of the intake valves on cylinder #3 firmly stuck in the head, not sure if the bottom is bent, but there is no spring/retainer/rocker arm at all for this valve.
mechanic thinks head gasket is blown, due to either the head bolts not being torqued down correctly, or the same head gasket was used, (the head gaskets on this car need to be replaced each and every time the head is taken off) also, he thinks that the head wasn't reassembled properly, causing one of the valves to fall into the cylinder. he also informed me that there is coolant leaking where the transmission meets the engine. (chevy tech used a silicone-based gasket maker material, not a real chevrolet gasket.)
later, i find out that the chevy tech that worked on my car, was just fired.
6/11/08 - received a call from XXX, she tells me on behalf of GM, she apologizes for this and she's going to research this further. She advises me that she is working closely with a BBB agent, XXX, to come to a result within 40 days (7/21/08). I tell her I want GM to buy the car back from me, because I don't want any future problems with the warranty or the car itself. But, thinking about it further, I really just want it fixed as I have alot of money into the car, and it is my first real daily driver car, ive become accustomed to the handling, the brakes, the characteristics of the car and so on.
6/16/08 - BBB agent calls me and gets my side of what happened.
cliff notes:
had service done to car under warranty, received the car back in bad bad shape, took it back in, and the dealer voided my warranty. seeking legal action against GM.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
FUN LITTLE FACTS!
If the BBB can't get me what i want, im suing General Motors for the price of the new engine, labor, excess gas used to get to work (my girlfriend has been taking me and as a result, is driving twice the miles i had to), and all the oil i have put in the car thus far, to keep it at a normal level.
i am not driving the car at all, except from the dealer, to the mechanic, and to a new insurance company, as they could NOT come to my house and take pictures they HAD to have me bring the car to them...
to avoid more problems with the car and the dealer, my preference is to take it to a reputable auto shop, and have the engine either rebuilt, or a new engine put in the car, whichever is 1. more reliable, and 2. cheaper, in order of importance.
i have not received word from the mechanic about the clutch problem, nor the bottom end of the engine.
there are aftermarket parts installed on this vehicle, but the engine has always been left alone. the aftermarket parts consist of rims and tires, and suspension upgrades, such as coil springs, rear anti-sway bar, and front strut bar.
to top it all off, my girlfriend is 9 3/4 months pregnant, due on 6/25/08 and she has to wake up every morning at 5:30 am to take me to work, im not on her car insurance, so i cant just drive her car to work. it's also costing us double the amount of gas it usually costs me to get to work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll be updating this as often as i can. I plan to get every penny i spent on rides to work, oil, and any and all other expenses paid due to the disablement of my vehicle.
Last edited by bridfi; 06-22-2008 at 05:45 AM.
06-22-2008, 05:40 AM
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i totally understand what you are sayin, but you did drop a valve at 6100 rpm in a car that wasnt really made for it...i know it sucks but the way i think, if it was my fault then i should have to fix it, not expect someone to fix it ....i'm not busting your ***** in away .... thats like sayin you would want gm to fix your tranny cause you downshifted from 5th to 2nd and your tranny couldnt handle it....i think people expect alittle much in that regaurds...i've been to the dealer 9+ times for the same problem..and its a problem that i didnt cause...but you see it everyday on this site where some of these kids blow there motor cause they are running a 2.7 and 60's and return it back to stock and take it to the dealer..its not the dealers fault its yours ....
06-22-2008, 05:51 AM
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i totally understand what you are sayin, but you did drop a valve at 6100 rpm in a car that wasnt really made for it...i know it sucks but the way i think, if it was my fault then i should have to fix it, not expect someone to fix it ....i'm not busting your ***** in away .... thats like sayin you would want gm to fix your tranny cause you downshifted from 5th to 2nd and your tranny couldnt handle it....i think people expect alittle much in that regaurds...i've been to the dealer 9+ times for the same problem..and its a problem that i didnt cause...but you see it everyday on this site where some of these kids blow there motor cause they are running a 2.7 and 60's and return it back to stock and take it to the dealer..its not the dealers fault its yours ....
shifting from 5th to 2nd is NOT what the car was engineered to do.
shifting the car at or above 6100 rpms (all the way up to 6500 rpms) IS what the car was engineered to do, or the rev limiter would be set lower than the 6500 RPM mark.
the car has seen well over 6100 rpms before the service work was done. when i get the car back from service, the car drops a valve. this problem is related to the service work.
if i shifted from 5th to 2nd, i would NOT expect anyone to fix the transmission but ME.
i expect from the dealer what i am entitled, not more, not less. i am entitled to a vehicle with a 36000 mile warranty, and if this car's rev limiter is set to 6500 RPMS, and the second it sees 6100 RPMs, it has a problem, YES, your damn right i expect it to be fixed. especially right after it had work done to it.
i can understand if i had stayed on the rev limiter for an extended period of time, but thats not the case here.
EDIT: let me put it to you this way, i am 100% sure if i HADN'T taken it in for service work, i would not be looking at this issue. the lifters were being loud, maybe because i was using a lightweight oil, so i took it in, just to be safe, im not even sure they were defective. my car was performing top notch like a car with 20000 miles on it, with regular maintenance would perform. now, its sitting outside my house, can't even get it to start half the time.
06-22-2008, 05:56 AM
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see bout your sayin that "the car has seen well over 6100 rpms before the service work was done"
but then ..."this car's rev limiter is set to 6500 RPMS, and the second it sees 6100 RPMs, it has a problem, YES"
that was not engineered to be abused it was made for fuel eco.....i would understand more if it was a ss.sc or a tc...then yes but the ls and lt is fuel eco
but then ..."this car's rev limiter is set to 6500 RPMS, and the second it sees 6100 RPMs, it has a problem, YES"
that was not engineered to be abused it was made for fuel eco.....i would understand more if it was a ss.sc or a tc...then yes but the ls and lt is fuel eco
06-22-2008, 06:00 AM
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see bout your sayin that "the car has seen well over 6100 rpms before the service work was done"
but then ..."this car's rev limiter is set to 6500 RPMS, and the second it sees 6100 RPMs, it has a problem, YES"
that was not engineered to be abused it was made for fuel eco.....i would understand more if it was a ss.sc or a tc...then yes but the ls and lt is fuel eco
but then ..."this car's rev limiter is set to 6500 RPMS, and the second it sees 6100 RPMs, it has a problem, YES"
that was not engineered to be abused it was made for fuel eco.....i would understand more if it was a ss.sc or a tc...then yes but the ls and lt is fuel eco
seems like a tech at chevy didnt know what they were working on? or maybe it was a monday? all i know is he's gone now...
06-22-2008, 06:03 AM
#6
see bout your sayin that "the car has seen well over 6100 rpms before the service work was done"
but then ..."this car's rev limiter is set to 6500 RPMS, and the second it sees 6100 RPMs, it has a problem, YES"
that was not engineered to be abused it was made for fuel eco.....i would understand more if it was a ss.sc or a tc...then yes but the ls and lt is fuel eco
but then ..."this car's rev limiter is set to 6500 RPMS, and the second it sees 6100 RPMs, it has a problem, YES"
that was not engineered to be abused it was made for fuel eco.....i would understand more if it was a ss.sc or a tc...then yes but the ls and lt is fuel eco
No man, if you read the manual in all Cobalts, it says something along the lines of this for passing:
Under 40 press the accelerator half down, above 40 floor it.
This is in the owner's manual, and actually, the L61 has a more aggressive cam set up than an LSJ.
06-22-2008, 06:05 AM
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ohh i'm not doubting that...but really how many times has that car been raced..or just bored and drove like an ass..."not calling you an ass just a figure of speach
06-22-2008, 06:07 AM
#8
If it was ANYTHING other than the head I would say something...but this isn't his fault in my books.
Or cam guide tensioner or w/e there was a small recall on...
Last edited by steddy2112; 06-22-2008 at 06:07 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
06-22-2008, 06:10 AM
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Beating on these cars and blowing a cyl is understandable...but the heads on all cobalts are over engineered.
If it was ANYTHING other than the head I would say something...but this isn't his fault in my books.
Or cam guide tensioner or w/e there was a small recall on...
If it was ANYTHING other than the head I would say something...but this isn't his fault in my books.
Or cam guide tensioner or w/e there was a small recall on...
06-22-2008, 06:13 AM
#10
The only difference in the heads besides like VVT is the valves are sodium filled.
Unless this guy was hot lapping, you should be able to beat the **** out of any newer car and the engine be like the last thing to give up.
06-22-2008, 06:16 AM
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it is deff not his fault at all. and the techs at gm (no offense) are a bunch of jokes. atleast near me they are. i dont understand the point of having a warranty if they refuse to warranty everything due to "abuse".
good luck with everything dude.
good luck with everything dude.
06-22-2008, 06:17 AM
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so.. hittin 6100 rpms is really beating on the car, when it was designed for 6500.
i still dont see the point your trying to make.
theres certain places where you need to get to a certain speed, entering a freeway, passing, etc. to do this, downshifting is necessary, causing the engine to rev faster. cars are built for this. they are built to pass, enter freeways, and so on. this car was not raced. this is my work car. the road to work is a 2-way road, with lots of big 18 wheelers cruising at 55 when the speed limit is 65. to get around them, and avoid a head on collision, acceleration is necessary. i have a 1973 nova with a chevy 383 in it. why would i race my 2.2 when i have my nova.
i still dont see the point your trying to make.
theres certain places where you need to get to a certain speed, entering a freeway, passing, etc. to do this, downshifting is necessary, causing the engine to rev faster. cars are built for this. they are built to pass, enter freeways, and so on. this car was not raced. this is my work car. the road to work is a 2-way road, with lots of big 18 wheelers cruising at 55 when the speed limit is 65. to get around them, and avoid a head on collision, acceleration is necessary. i have a 1973 nova with a chevy 383 in it. why would i race my 2.2 when i have my nova.
06-22-2008, 06:22 AM
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yea but its still Arguing Semantics cause if i pop a piston and i'll i have is stage 2 with header and intake...can i go to the dealer and tell them i want them to fix my car cause the motor popped, and it had to be something wrong with the car not the way i drove it ..because there are people on the car forums that put out way more hp on stock motor..so you have to fit it...
oh man, please give up. that's not even a valid comparison.
Last edited by bridfi; 06-22-2008 at 06:22 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
06-22-2008, 06:22 AM
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so.. hittin 6100 rpms is really beating on the car, when it was designed for 6500.
i still dont see the point your trying to make.
theres certain places where you need to get to a certain speed, entering a freeway, passing, etc. to do this, downshifting is necessary, causing the engine to rev faster. cars are built for this. they are built to pass, enter freeways, and so on. this car was not raced. this is my work car. the road to work is a 2-way road, with lots of big 18 wheelers cruising at 55 when the speed limit is 65. to get around them, and avoid a head on collision, acceleration is necessary. i have a 1973 nova with a chevy 383 in it. why would i race my 2.2 when i have my nova.
i still dont see the point your trying to make.
theres certain places where you need to get to a certain speed, entering a freeway, passing, etc. to do this, downshifting is necessary, causing the engine to rev faster. cars are built for this. they are built to pass, enter freeways, and so on. this car was not raced. this is my work car. the road to work is a 2-way road, with lots of big 18 wheelers cruising at 55 when the speed limit is 65. to get around them, and avoid a head on collision, acceleration is necessary. i have a 1973 nova with a chevy 383 in it. why would i race my 2.2 when i have my nova.
also, awesome engine. my neighbor is building a 383 stroker for his trans-am. i been helping him, and i cannot wait until this thing is in.
06-22-2008, 06:25 AM
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he's not saying ur racing ur car. what steddy is trying to say that even if ur reving out to stock redline u shouldn't have any problems regarding ur head.
also, awesome engine. my neighbor is building a 383 stroker for his trans-am. i been helping him, and i cannot wait until this thing is in.
also, awesome engine. my neighbor is building a 383 stroker for his trans-am. i been helping him, and i cannot wait until this thing is in.
thanks, yea the 383 roars with the glass pacs. its awesome. converted from auto to 4 speed borg-warner out of a 80's corvette
all home-grown, garage assembled. (crate engine though)
06-22-2008, 06:25 AM
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thanks. ive heard tons of horror stories about the GM dealers in my area. not only chevy.. must be a gm thing to hire unexperienced mechanics?
thats what im thinking.
man i just think your hear to start arguments. you keep saying the same things, obviously you have no idea what your talking about.
your comparing a stock LS with suspension mods to a stage 2 SS/SC?
oh man, please give up. that's not even a valid comparison.
thats what im thinking.
man i just think your hear to start arguments. you keep saying the same things, obviously you have no idea what your talking about.
your comparing a stock LS with suspension mods to a stage 2 SS/SC?
oh man, please give up. that's not even a valid comparison.
I'M NOT HEAR TO **** ANYONE OFF CAUSE IF THATS WHAT I WANTED TO DO YOU'D BE PISSED OFF ALREADY...TRUST THAT
06-22-2008, 06:27 AM
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all paid by me, bud. even if it wasnt, i really don't know what your getting at, i mean, does it really matter who paid for the car? its having problems because of the bad quality service from the dealer. not relevant to "who paid for the car" once again,
06-22-2008, 06:30 AM
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insurance, down payment, car payments, all bills, baby on the way, girlfriend's car insurance
all paid by me, bud. even if it wasnt, i really don't know what your getting at, i mean, does it really matter who paid for the car? its having problems because of the bad quality service from the dealer. not relevant to "who paid for the car" once again,
all paid by me, bud. even if it wasnt, i really don't know what your getting at, i mean, does it really matter who paid for the car? its having problems because of the bad quality service from the dealer. not relevant to "who paid for the car" once again,
06-22-2008, 06:32 AM
#23
Slowbalt would have pissed you off if he wanted to by now brid, trust me.
Slowbalt, I have paid for my cars since I have been driving, and think that this is not his fault...and a '73 is the wrong year...
pollution laws FTL.Slow, if it was ANYTHING other than the head of the car...that has had work done by the dealer once, I would be saying the same thing as you.
Sounds to me that they didn't put it back together right to me.
There is no reason 3/4 pistons compression would be down and a stuck valve.
YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I'M GETTING AT...KIDS ON THIS SITE HAVE NO SENCE OF VALUE ..BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW MANY OF THE BALTS THEY GO THROUGH OR MOTORS...WHATEVER THEY BROKE WASNT THERE FAULT AND SOMEONE SHOULD BE THERE TO FIX IT...JUST LIKE MOMMY AND DADDY IS THERE LETTING THEM ACT LIKE THAT
Not I am a new driver beating the living **** out of a car...this is not that though Slow, so chill
Last edited by steddy2112; 06-22-2008 at 06:32 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
06-22-2008, 06:36 AM
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They are both as reliable as one another, I think you both need to calm down.
Slowbalt would have pissed you off if he wanted to by now brid, trust me.
Slowbalt, I have paid for my cars since I have been driving, and think that this is not his fault...and a '73 is the wrong year... pollution laws FTL.
Slow, if it was ANYTHING other than the head of the car...that has had work done by the dealer once, I would be saying the same thing as you.
Sounds to me that they didn't put it back together right to me.
There is no reason 3/4 pistons compression would be down and a stuck valve.
This site has a very young person's mentality where they feel the pay for said car and should anything wrong it is: "because the car is a piece and the dealer should fix it"
Not I am a new driver beating the living **** out of a car...this is not that though Slow, so chill
Slowbalt would have pissed you off if he wanted to by now brid, trust me.
Slowbalt, I have paid for my cars since I have been driving, and think that this is not his fault...and a '73 is the wrong year...
pollution laws FTL.Slow, if it was ANYTHING other than the head of the car...that has had work done by the dealer once, I would be saying the same thing as you.
Sounds to me that they didn't put it back together right to me.
There is no reason 3/4 pistons compression would be down and a stuck valve.
This site has a very young person's mentality where they feel the pay for said car and should anything wrong it is: "because the car is a piece and the dealer should fix it"
Not I am a new driver beating the living **** out of a car...this is not that though Slow, so chill
well i called another one, and i told them the story about what happened, and they said i need to take it to the same dealer that had worked on it previously, the guy strait out told me that he didnt want to work on someone else's **** up, because they'd be losing money somehow, so... i gave up on that idea... plus its already in the midst of investigation, so, i want to leave things be for now, i dont want to screw with anything just yet.
Last edited by bridfi; 06-22-2008 at 06:36 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost