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Injector basics for LSJ

Old 12-21-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Speedytec View Post
That's the tricky one, as by scaling the MAF & VE table your ecm "sees" less airflow than there actually is! And this affects f.i. the ignition table that is based on measured airflow... There is a good write-up somewhere how to properly scale GM tunes. But then the problem arises that HPT does not give access to all LSJ tables and some of these should be altered for a proper scaled tune.

So that's why I changed my fuel regulator for a 3.0 bar Saab version and I don't have to scale anything for these Bosch injectors.
And my idle and transient behaviour is pretty good with these.
can you clarify some on this for me ? I am currently running Mototron "80's" (with poor results IMO) and a boost referenced system, so I'm tossing between trying to work some of the principles in this thread on my 80's to try to get them better, or ditch them and get the Bosch injectors this thread is about

For these Bosch injectors -- the OP states 60.5lb @ 43.5psi or 72lb @ 58psi. --

doesn't that require us to use 72lb IFR no matter whether we are running the stock fuel pressure system or not ? (no, it doesn't, see two posts down)

Which runs us right back into the "IFR Modifier doesn't work" and scaled tune thing ?

Last edited by wayfarer; 12-23-2014 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 12-22-2014, 09:42 AM
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Correct
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Old 12-22-2014, 11:09 AM
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am I also correct in the understanding that Speedytec is running near 43psi fuel pressure, and that's how HE'S getting away with it as he mentions ?

any thoughts on how / why so many guys with big(ger) injectors are not running scaled tunes, or are getting away with not ?

EDIT: My question from two posts up is WRONG; IFR value must correspond to whatever base pressure is run
went back and did a bunch of refresher reading, including how to set up a boost referenced system, which is what I have -- according to a question I asked back then, I would enter IFR values based on what my IFR would be at the base pressure my regulator is set at-- so, if my base pressure is 43.5 and I chose to run the EV14's from this thread,I would use 60.5 as my IFR across the board, which again, would negate the need for the IFR modifier or a scaled tune. If base pressure was 42, the IFR would be lower, and if the base pressure was higher, I.E. 58psi the IFR would be higher.
Sound right ?

Last edited by wayfarer; 12-23-2014 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 12-23-2014, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
am I also correct in the understanding that Speedytec is running near 43psi fuel pressure, and that's how HE'S getting away with it as he mentions ?

any thoughts on how / why so many guys with big(ger) injectors are not running scaled tunes, or are getting away with not ?

EDIT: went back and did a bunch of refresher reading, including how to set up a boost referenced system, which is what I have -- according to a question I asked back then, I would enter IFR values based on what my IFR would be at the base pressure my regulator is set at-- so, if my base pressure is 43.5 and I chose to run the EV14's from this thread,I would use 60.5 as my IFR across the board, which again, would negate the need for the IFR modifier or a scaled tune. If base pressure was 42, the IFR would be lower, and if the base pressure was higher, I.E. 58psi the IFR would be higher.
Sound right ?
Yes, my base pressure is a Saab B207 (same rail design as LSJ/L61) 3.0 bar unit, so 43,5psi. But return system, so about 60,5 everywhere in my IFR table.

That gives me just enough fuel for my Harrop @7800rpm. (~83% IDC max, forget E85 this way)
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Old 12-23-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Speedytec View Post
Yes, my base pressure is a Saab B207 (same rail design as LSJ/L61) 3.0 bar unit, so 43,5psi. But return system, so about 60,5 everywhere in my IFR table.

That gives me just enough fuel for my Harrop @7800rpm. (~83% IDC max, forget E85 this way)
I ordered the injectors this afternoon.
I'm on e85, but less blower than you, only revving to 7000, and my 6000 feet altitude is good for close to 25% loss !
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Old 12-24-2014, 08:26 AM
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When people use 80's with non scaled tunes, using the ifr vs volts table, they end up inadvertently making up for it in the maf and ve table, wether they realize it or not.
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Old 12-24-2014, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by armcclure View Post
When people use 80's with non scaled tunes, using the ifr vs volts table, they end up inadvertently making up for it in the maf and ve table, wether they realize it or not.
I wondered if that might be the case. You wanna see something awful related to 80's and unscaled, I'll show you my current VE table.
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Old 12-27-2014, 07:35 PM
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The VE on these cars is a strange animal. My car is currently on a ve only (sd) tune due to a maf backwash issue I need to fix.
I fought and fought with applying changes and smoothing the table out, it was never happy. Finally it got to te point where I said to hell with it, I'll just give it what it wants. And you know what? It worked.
If you were to look at it you'd say no way. But trims are spot on (for E) and wot AFR is rock solid.
Sometimes you have to stop trying to make the car take wht you THINK it wants, and just give it what it's asking for.
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Old 01-07-2015, 07:10 PM
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Hey Speedytec --- your PM box is full!
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Old 01-15-2015, 07:51 PM
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Whoa....looks like people are looking for some answers. I have not been on here in over 6 months...sorry.

I do have the correct data for these. And the voltage multiplier table was left in there as a leftover really. Alan is correct.....it does not work.
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Old 01-16-2015, 08:24 AM
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I tried digging through my email for it but I can't find it anywhere. I know I have it saved on my computer somewhere because I've found it before.... Just need to dig more.
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Old 01-16-2015, 12:47 PM
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awright you guys --- hook a brotha up !!

i have the injectors, just need good data
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Old 01-16-2015, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
awright you guys --- hook a brotha up !!

i have the injectors, just need good data
What data do you need?
People need to be more specific about what they have and need if they want help...
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Old 01-16-2015, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by blueLNFftw View Post
What data do you need?
People need to be more specific about what they have and need if they want help...
proper (for use in my 2007 2.0 LSJ with P12 pcm) HP Tuners data for the Bosch EV14 630cc as sold by Fuel Injector Connection, per the original post

offset vs volts vs vac table
min pw
short pulse limit
short pulse adder table

Last edited by wayfarer; 01-16-2015 at 07:34 PM. Reason: crow is yummy
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Old 01-16-2015, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
proper injector data.

offset vs volts vs vac table
min pw
short pulse limit
short pulse adder table

Is that specific enough ? I didn't think I needed to specify because it was all within the context of the thread
For the Bosch ones?
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Old 01-16-2015, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by lwrs10 View Post
For the Bosch ones?
yes. edited previous post.
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Old 01-21-2015, 01:39 PM
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Did anyone ever confirm that the offset data for these injectors is correct? Also, is Fuel Injector Connection the only place to get these? I dont see them listed on their site so im guessing they're are still ony available per special request as the op suggested?

For those with experience will these injectors be good for 300-350whp on a tvs w/meth, head, and cams? Thanks in advance for any help or info guys!
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Old 01-21-2015, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by RedLined View Post
Did anyone ever confirm that the offset data for these injectors is correct? Also, is Fuel Injector Connection the only place to get these? I dont see them listed on their site so im guessing they're are still ony available per special request as the op suggested?

For those with experience will these injectors be good for 300-350whp on a tvs w/meth, head, and cams? Thanks in advance for any help or info guys!
At 61lb per hour, they should be good for well over 400hp, probably closer to 500hp. Hell my GMs2 #42 injectors flowed almost 500cc @ our base fuel pressure of 60psi.
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Old 01-21-2015, 06:00 PM
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I figured they should be good enough, but I read somewhere that 80s were a must for tvs. Maybe that was for E85?
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Old 01-21-2015, 06:11 PM
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Nevermind, I should have read Speedytec's comment, "That gives me just enough fuel for my Harrop @7800rpm. (~83% IDC max, forget E85 this way)".
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RedLined View Post
Nevermind, I should have read Speedytec's comment, "That gives me just enough fuel for my Harrop @7800rpm. (~83% IDC max, forget E85 this way)".
Base pressure of 43.5psi is what all injectors are rated at, so flow can vary depending on what your base pressure is on the car. In the OP it says "They flow 60.5lb/hr @43.5psi, and [email protected] which is the stock LSJ fuel pressure. " E85 is a different story though. I always think in terms of pump gas since we have very little E85 availability here, i never deal with it. Also cheap insurance for some extra overhead is the ZZP fuel pump rewire. I noted an extra 10% increase in fueling across my entire MAF scale after the rewire. However the 2.4 pump I believe is slightly smaller then the LSJ pump, which I believe josh said is 225lph.
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Old 01-21-2015, 09:10 PM
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I should also note, the GM S2 #42's apparently are NOT split stream injectors, they are wide fan spray patterns, I would assume GM was concerned about fuel atomization with the bigger injector and being able to properly pass emissions which resulted in the redesign. I compared the tips of the stock LSJ injectors and the S2's and the stockers used a 2 hole spray nozzle like the traditional dual jet injectors normally use, while the S2's used a 4 hole end. When I sent them out for service they noted the difference in spray pattern verifying what I had suspected with that difference.



"We appreciate the positive feedback. Your injectors display a wide (approximately 30-35 degree) cone shaped spray pattern. It is a well atomized spray that will work well in most multi-valve engines. We hope this is helpful."

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- Fuel Injector Cleaning & Flow Testing Service -

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Old 01-21-2015, 09:47 PM
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I bought these Bosch EV14 630cc injectors from Jon at FIC, just before Christmas and received data in LSX format from him.
In the last couple days I received an injector spreadsheet with various injectors, including the Bosch EV14 630cc, all in LSJ format. This spreadsheet is reported to be LWRS10's work, but I have not been able to verify this with him.

I was a bit confused about the 630cc / 60.5lb number in the OP. Also, the package the injectors came in said "flow matched 630cc"
...but the spreadsheets say 72.02lb /hr @ 58psi, which does NOT come out to 60.5 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi, it comes out to 62.35 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi.... so I contacted Jon and asked him which is the correct #. He stated that 72.02 lb/hr @ 58psi and 62.35 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi is correct.

I have ZZP BRFPS, so I will set my regulator to 43.5 base pressure. For the tune, I used 62.35 as my IFR (actually 62.3 in the table). I used the data from LWRS10's spreadsheet for the rest. It's not up and running yet, but I'll report here when it is.

When I was on the phone with Jon before Christmas I asked him if he had a similar split stream injector in a higher flow rate, for higher HP and he said he did.
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Old 01-21-2015, 10:05 PM
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Any particular reason for dialing back to 43.5? From what I understand those new EV14 bosch injectors prefer higher base pressures and typically run up to 115psi.
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Old 01-21-2015, 11:22 PM
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the Fuelab regulator that came with my ZZP BRFPS was preset at 42psi, so dialing it up a little will be easy.

Also, it keeps the IFR below the 63.5 limit, so no scaling the tune is needed. Since I am a very hesitant amateur tuner, this is a big plus for me

With my mods, at my altitude, I shouldn't need any more than that.
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