What is wrong with this tune!
06-27-2013, 04:05 PM
#1
What is wrong with this tune!
Took my buddys car to SMG Motoring in Hopedale, MA. They have a good name for dyno's and they build ecotec motors for race cars, there were 4 other cobalts there getting work done at the time as well.
Car is my buddy Brandon's, its got Injen Hot pipe, K&N intake, GMS1 kit/sensors, 3" Catless DP, MPX intercooler and that's it. So we get there, and it takes us about 25 minutes to install the sensors. We get the car in and get it strapped down. Then I notice his dyno computer blue screening..... Then shuts down, fails to restart, fails to restart...........
Fast forward 2 1/2 annoying hours of him on the phone with other people and trying different computers, finally finds the software somewhere and uploads it to his laptop and starts the tuning.
First run, he lets of at 5k rpms because he said the car leaned out at about 14 afr..... So he changed some stuff and on the first pull made about 260whp.
Next run 280
next run 293.
Final run 294hp 354 ft lbs.
He recommended a 20 PSI tune with a small boost spike of 24-25 psi. We said ok. On the last few runs he said the boost spike was a little excessive but should be fine, and we asked several times, is it "safe" and its not going to blow anything up immediately. He said no (but cant guarantee obviously).
So after being there for 4 hours... We take off, power feels great, hop on the highway and see boost spikes of 30PSI on every WOT for a few seconds.
I posted this on FB and have about 10 comments everyone saying somethings wrong, so you guys know the situation a bit more now that I am home and can type this out, what could be going on here?
We were held up for so long and because he switched computers we didn't get a graph or anything but he will email one when he can.
Opinions? I should add that we left happy, and the car drives great, just the spike and a few opinions have me questioning it.
Car is my buddy Brandon's, its got Injen Hot pipe, K&N intake, GMS1 kit/sensors, 3" Catless DP, MPX intercooler and that's it. So we get there, and it takes us about 25 minutes to install the sensors. We get the car in and get it strapped down. Then I notice his dyno computer blue screening..... Then shuts down, fails to restart, fails to restart...........
Fast forward 2 1/2 annoying hours of him on the phone with other people and trying different computers, finally finds the software somewhere and uploads it to his laptop and starts the tuning.
First run, he lets of at 5k rpms because he said the car leaned out at about 14 afr..... So he changed some stuff and on the first pull made about 260whp.
Next run 280
next run 293.
Final run 294hp 354 ft lbs.
He recommended a 20 PSI tune with a small boost spike of 24-25 psi. We said ok. On the last few runs he said the boost spike was a little excessive but should be fine, and we asked several times, is it "safe" and its not going to blow anything up immediately. He said no (but cant guarantee obviously).
So after being there for 4 hours... We take off, power feels great, hop on the highway and see boost spikes of 30PSI on every WOT for a few seconds.
I posted this on FB and have about 10 comments everyone saying somethings wrong, so you guys know the situation a bit more now that I am home and can type this out, what could be going on here?
We were held up for so long and because he switched computers we didn't get a graph or anything but he will email one when he can.
Opinions? I should add that we left happy, and the car drives great, just the spike and a few opinions have me questioning it.
Last edited by breds2k; 06-27-2013 at 04:12 PM.
06-27-2013, 04:31 PM
#3
I should add that 30 is pretty high, but there is more that goes into it. What's the timing look like, for instance.
I doubt anyone here is really going to be able to tell you the full story without a copy of the tune file or a log to look at.
I doubt anyone here is really going to be able to tell you the full story without a copy of the tune file or a log to look at.
06-27-2013, 05:58 PM
#13
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
30psi spike is bad juju in my book but some may disagree. Like Sox said, ct isn't exactly crazy far from Mass so I'd be willing to meet up with him one of these days to take a look at the tune and fix it if need be if he'd like. 294/354 is pretty rough on that dyno as well. It tends to sway a bit toward the happy side of things so I would expect to see a little better numbers than that.
06-27-2013, 11:30 PM
#19
IMO---This guy Joe Lyon's had a meth pump fail to my understanding which blew his engine, on johns fresh tune (not sure who installed meth pump) Jeremy and john agreed to "help"? fix it (that's my understanding) they lost contact, the engine never got done, and Joe threatened to call the police so they dumped his stuff outside and "supposedly" damaged the hood.
Anyways, what I just said above is my opinion from what I gathered, and I SERIOUSLY don't want to start a bicker match about that at all. The point is my buddy Brandon, got his car and installed all his bolt ons right about this time and saw all the this and heard the negative end of things because Jeremy and John aren't always online, Joe's negative comments went a few days un answered and that did not look good.
Regardless of what happened to them, I will talk to Brandon and see what he feels comfortable with, I think he just made an account here so I will get him involved so I don't have to funnel everything. Hes a Toyota Frame Technician (does truck frame replacements 247) and is not a dummy, but has never tuned/modded a 4cyl before. Hes got a old school supra as well think its a 1983.
He just wants his car done right, and he wanted it done on a dyno as well from a reputable shop that's why we went to SMG. And from making an appointment, then being there for 30 minutes installing the sensors then waiting a few hours with their computer crashes....it was just a pain in the ass, now we left happy, the car pulls like crazy but the extended 30 PSI spikes got us nervous, so I asked a few questions. I will try and get the graph/tune shortly so we can see what the deal is.
EDIT: from fred at SMG
"By all means you can bring it back... however... I have never tuned a TC with a stock turbo that has made 325 hp and that much tq... only turbo swapped cars. Also... Keep it mind that boost gauge is not 100% accurate. My data logs show 26.5-27 psi spike and holding roughly 21 psi. Turning the boost up higher at the end of the pull will do nothing. Also... a car making 402 wtq is more than likely boost spiking more than 28-30 psi... By all means brandon can bring it back and I will take a look over it and even put it back on the dyno if need be...however I don't think it will change the results.
325 whp on those mods (like I said) is asking alot and I'm assuming a shop more than likely just gave him a high dyno sheet. (in my opinion) There are alot of desk top tuners out on the forums that are really not very knowledgeable
As I just look over the tune... I have I only have the boost commanded to 279.9 KPA which is only 25.89 psi (to be exact)...and Like I said the boost spikes I data log range between 26-27 psi for only 2 tenths of a second and the boost starts to drop (as the turbo's do not have enough steam to hold the 25 psi) So....Don't trust the factory gauge"
-------
Now, the boost shows hitting 30 psi for several seconds in the car. How trust worthy is the gauge?
Anyways, what I just said above is my opinion from what I gathered, and I SERIOUSLY don't want to start a bicker match about that at all. The point is my buddy Brandon, got his car and installed all his bolt ons right about this time and saw all the this and heard the negative end of things because Jeremy and John aren't always online, Joe's negative comments went a few days un answered and that did not look good.
Regardless of what happened to them, I will talk to Brandon and see what he feels comfortable with, I think he just made an account here so I will get him involved so I don't have to funnel everything. Hes a Toyota Frame Technician (does truck frame replacements 247) and is not a dummy, but has never tuned/modded a 4cyl before. Hes got a old school supra as well think its a 1983.
He just wants his car done right, and he wanted it done on a dyno as well from a reputable shop that's why we went to SMG. And from making an appointment, then being there for 30 minutes installing the sensors then waiting a few hours with their computer crashes....it was just a pain in the ass, now we left happy, the car pulls like crazy but the extended 30 PSI spikes got us nervous, so I asked a few questions. I will try and get the graph/tune shortly so we can see what the deal is.
EDIT: from fred at SMG
"By all means you can bring it back... however... I have never tuned a TC with a stock turbo that has made 325 hp and that much tq... only turbo swapped cars. Also... Keep it mind that boost gauge is not 100% accurate. My data logs show 26.5-27 psi spike and holding roughly 21 psi. Turning the boost up higher at the end of the pull will do nothing. Also... a car making 402 wtq is more than likely boost spiking more than 28-30 psi... By all means brandon can bring it back and I will take a look over it and even put it back on the dyno if need be...however I don't think it will change the results.
325 whp on those mods (like I said) is asking alot and I'm assuming a shop more than likely just gave him a high dyno sheet. (in my opinion) There are alot of desk top tuners out on the forums that are really not very knowledgeable
As I just look over the tune... I have I only have the boost commanded to 279.9 KPA which is only 25.89 psi (to be exact)...and Like I said the boost spikes I data log range between 26-27 psi for only 2 tenths of a second and the boost starts to drop (as the turbo's do not have enough steam to hold the 25 psi) So....Don't trust the factory gauge"
-------
Now, the boost shows hitting 30 psi for several seconds in the car. How trust worthy is the gauge?
Last edited by breds2k; 06-27-2013 at 11:42 PM.
06-28-2013, 02:09 AM
#20
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Definitely recommend 09CobaltSS1 (john). Good guy and gets the job done right
EDIT: Joe's cobalt is my old car. A professioanl installed the kit. It was just a bad pump from what I can tell.
EDIT: Joe's cobalt is my old car. A professioanl installed the kit. It was just a bad pump from what I can tell.
06-28-2013, 08:05 AM
#21
IMO---This guy Joe Lyon's had a meth pump fail to my understanding which blew his engine, on johns fresh tune (not sure who installed meth pump) Jeremy and john agreed to "help"? fix it (that's my understanding) they lost contact, the engine never got done, and Joe threatened to call the police so they dumped his stuff outside and "supposedly" damaged the hood.
Anyways, what I just said above is my opinion from what I gathered, and I SERIOUSLY don't want to start a bicker match about that at all. The point is my buddy Brandon, got his car and installed all his bolt ons right about this time and saw all the this and heard the negative end of things because Jeremy and John aren't always online, Joe's negative comments went a few days un answered and that did not look good.
Regardless of what happened to them, I will talk to Brandon and see what he feels comfortable with, I think he just made an account here so I will get him involved so I don't have to funnel everything. Hes a Toyota Frame Technician (does truck frame replacements 247) and is not a dummy, but has never tuned/modded a 4cyl before. Hes got a old school supra as well think its a 1983.
He just wants his car done right, and he wanted it done on a dyno as well from a reputable shop that's why we went to SMG. And from making an appointment, then being there for 30 minutes installing the sensors then waiting a few hours with their computer crashes....it was just a pain in the ass, now we left happy, the car pulls like crazy but the extended 30 PSI spikes got us nervous, so I asked a few questions. I will try and get the graph/tune shortly so we can see what the deal is.
If i lived closer Id go to SMG, but john is 1 hr closer to me. I used fred for about 2 years for my turbo 2.2 sedan and my first tune for the SS. Just the distance is not worth it. Plus johns tunes are proven as well.
EDIT: from fred at SMG
"By all means you can bring it back... however... I have never tuned a TC with a stock turbo that has made 325 hp and that much tq... only turbo swapped cars. Also... Keep it mind that boost gauge is not 100% accurate. My data logs show 26.5-27 psi spike and holding roughly 21 psi. Turning the boost up higher at the end of the pull will do nothing. Also... a car making 402 wtq is more than likely boost spiking more than 28-30 psi... By all means brandon can bring it back and I will take a look over it and even put it back on the dyno if need be...however I don't think it will change the results.
325 whp on those mods (like I said) is asking alot and I'm assuming a shop more than likely just gave him a high dyno sheet. (in my opinion) There are alot of desk top tuners out on the forums that are really not very knowledgeable
As I just look over the tune... I have I only have the boost commanded to 279.9 KPA which is only 25.89 psi (to be exact)...and Like I said the boost spikes I data log range between 26-27 psi for only 2 tenths of a second and the boost starts to drop (as the turbo's do not have enough steam to hold the 25 psi) So....Don't trust the factory gauge"
-------
Now, the boost shows hitting 30 psi for several seconds in the car. How trust worthy is the gauge?
Anyways, what I just said above is my opinion from what I gathered, and I SERIOUSLY don't want to start a bicker match about that at all. The point is my buddy Brandon, got his car and installed all his bolt ons right about this time and saw all the this and heard the negative end of things because Jeremy and John aren't always online, Joe's negative comments went a few days un answered and that did not look good.
Regardless of what happened to them, I will talk to Brandon and see what he feels comfortable with, I think he just made an account here so I will get him involved so I don't have to funnel everything. Hes a Toyota Frame Technician (does truck frame replacements 247) and is not a dummy, but has never tuned/modded a 4cyl before. Hes got a old school supra as well think its a 1983.
He just wants his car done right, and he wanted it done on a dyno as well from a reputable shop that's why we went to SMG. And from making an appointment, then being there for 30 minutes installing the sensors then waiting a few hours with their computer crashes....it was just a pain in the ass, now we left happy, the car pulls like crazy but the extended 30 PSI spikes got us nervous, so I asked a few questions. I will try and get the graph/tune shortly so we can see what the deal is.
If i lived closer Id go to SMG, but john is 1 hr closer to me. I used fred for about 2 years for my turbo 2.2 sedan and my first tune for the SS. Just the distance is not worth it. Plus johns tunes are proven as well.
EDIT: from fred at SMG
"By all means you can bring it back... however... I have never tuned a TC with a stock turbo that has made 325 hp and that much tq... only turbo swapped cars. Also... Keep it mind that boost gauge is not 100% accurate. My data logs show 26.5-27 psi spike and holding roughly 21 psi. Turning the boost up higher at the end of the pull will do nothing. Also... a car making 402 wtq is more than likely boost spiking more than 28-30 psi... By all means brandon can bring it back and I will take a look over it and even put it back on the dyno if need be...however I don't think it will change the results.
325 whp on those mods (like I said) is asking alot and I'm assuming a shop more than likely just gave him a high dyno sheet. (in my opinion) There are alot of desk top tuners out on the forums that are really not very knowledgeable
As I just look over the tune... I have I only have the boost commanded to 279.9 KPA which is only 25.89 psi (to be exact)...and Like I said the boost spikes I data log range between 26-27 psi for only 2 tenths of a second and the boost starts to drop (as the turbo's do not have enough steam to hold the 25 psi) So....Don't trust the factory gauge"
-------
Now, the boost shows hitting 30 psi for several seconds in the car. How trust worthy is the gauge?
I was there with Dana and a few other guys. We waited out side til Jeremy got there, pushed joes car onto flatbed trailer and Jeremy and Dana carried stuff outside from the shop. Nothing was "dumped". Id say it went pretty smoothly everyone got along lol. Hood damage who knows what happened with that. it was damaged before We got there that day.
06-28-2013, 09:17 AM
#23
This is confusing. Your post says 294hp 354 ft lbs yet the email form him that you quoted says 325/402.
So there are pieces missing.
I will only say this:
at 30 psi on a stock turbo you've passed peak efficiency, and moving a lot of hot air.
your probably not doing your rings any favors at all.
and as a comparison my car dynoed 312/386 on a car that never ever sees over 25.5 psi according to a few dozen HPTuners logs.
I've heard good things about Fred up there at SMG, so I am certainly not knocking him, but something isn't adding up there.
It never hurts to have someone else look it over, that's why I recommended that you hook up with John down in CT, arrange a meet and have him take another look and see what's what. It'll be a couple of hours (and whatever you pay John) to achieve piece of mind. Cheap if you ask me.
So there are pieces missing.
I will only say this:
at 30 psi on a stock turbo you've passed peak efficiency, and moving a lot of hot air.
your probably not doing your rings any favors at all.
and as a comparison my car dynoed 312/386 on a car that never ever sees over 25.5 psi according to a few dozen HPTuners logs.
I've heard good things about Fred up there at SMG, so I am certainly not knocking him, but something isn't adding up there.
It never hurts to have someone else look it over, that's why I recommended that you hook up with John down in CT, arrange a meet and have him take another look and see what's what. It'll be a couple of hours (and whatever you pay John) to achieve piece of mind. Cheap if you ask me.
