Wanted to give everyone an update.....

Have spent the last couple of weeks tearing everything off the car. Zzp is saying that since I am hitting the EFR surge line below the stated point on the EFR compressor map, there has to be a restriction somewhere in the car.....basically a 5PSI restriction.

So far I have removed/checked the charge piping, Hahn intercooler, throttle body, and intake mainfold and found no issues. Everything appears to be practically new. I have even gone so far as to order a new lower charge pipe to remove the meth nozzle from the equation.

Not sure where to go from here.....I guess I now need to find someone running the Hahn intercooler with EFR just to rule out one more thing.....

Any help is appreciated

 

That's sort of odd. The surge line for the 6758 at 22psi (which I believe was your boost level) is far before the 4,000rpm full boost range you're currently seeing, going by your log at least. The surge line at boost levels as high as 26psi is even roughly 3800rpm for a 2liter engine according to compressor map with this turbo so I'm sort of confused how he determined this.

 

Yeah...I know..... :/

Basically where the surge is at is 21lbs/min at 2.3 ratio. According to the compressor map from Borg Warner the ratio at the surge line is 2.6.....somehow I am encountering the surge at a lower ratio. Zzp wants me to do a pressure drop across the Hahn intercooler but unfortunately I don't have the means to do so.....I am really not sure that the problem is there though....a 5psi restriction would be something visible at least and my intercooler appears almost new and has been inspected for defects.

Thing is I was running the KO4+ with meth and no issues....yeah, this no KO4+ but I am starting to wonder if this is an actual mechanical issue with the car. Would love to know if anyone has seen the 4000 rpm issue or if anyone has successfully run the efr with hahn intercooler....

 

Buddy of mine has a ZFR on a fully built ZZP engine. Experienced the same issues, but to a lesser extent. When looking at this issue from the outside and reading up on everyone's comments it seems simple enough to me, but I'm not a tuner or a shop so I may be talking out of my ass....

That 4000 RPM range is the meatiest part of our power band is it not? Wouldn't it stand to argue that the ZFR may just be outflowing the stock head just a tad in that range causing the restriction that everyone keeps searching for and thus then causing surge? The reason the owners of STG1 CAM's see it a little less with the ZFR is cause they are able to cram just a little more air in the cylinders, lessening the effect. Then add a ported head to that and it lessens it even more.

I know that there was lots of testing done and lots of owners have made crazy power, but that doesn't take away from the fact that surge could still happen, especially if the turbo is outflowing something on the engine. Also, I know that the stock LNF head has been able to reach high/peak HP numbers before becoming a restriction, but again, were talking about a certain RPM range here where the ZFR spools too fast, and can cram air into the head faster than other turbo's on the market.

I'm not an engineer. I don't know anything about flow characteristics....but it makes sense in my head LOL So, just something to think about.

 

It has been a while since I have provided an update, but basically that is because I am playing a waiting game right now....

So I think that you are right, I am simply out-flowing what the engine can handle. I have gone so far as to tear down the front of the car with no luck. Ran into an issue with removing one of the manifold studs and ended up having to wait for new studs to come in. ZZP is going to go ahead and replace the core with a 62mm compressor but I have to wait for them to put in the order for the next batch. Pretty sure that this will solve the problems so I am currently trying to be patient. I will certainly lose a little power in downgrading, but I will gain faster spool and it isn't like I could run the turbo full-out with the surge. I think at this point I will take what I can get.

 

Glad to hear that you are at least making progress. Being able to max out this revised turbo once you get it will probably yield you better results on your setup anyways. It's not always 'bigger is better'. As long as you can maximize power on your particular setup, that's all that matters

 

True....got an update today from ZZP. My new core should be arriving at ZZP this week. Needless to say, I will have to go back and remove the turbo so I can ship it back and get the internals swapped. This will be at least 1 weekend (perhaps 2?). I probably won't have an update for approximately 3 weeks but I will let everyone know how it turns out.....

 

UPDATE: So the new core was shipped to ZZP last week. I am just waiting on confirmation that it arrived. In the meantime I will start tearing out the EFR so I can ship it back to ZZP. I will be stepping down to a 62mm compressor to compensate for the surge. ZZP is standing behind their product and are willing to make things right so I can't complain.

Now, one thing I am noticing on the forum (when I periodically check in) are the doubters out there regarding this.... I appears that when someone tries to bring this to others attention that they are pretty much confronted for doing so. So in an effort to help others out there (I hope), here is a HP Tuners scan of the situation:

http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/t...R/29SEPT13.jpg


If you have HP Tuners and you think that this problem may exist, check your MAF reading around 4000 rpm. If you have the repeating oscilllations, there is a good chance that what you are hearing is NOT turbo flutter, but rather compressor surge. Just make sure to confirm by plugging in a manual boost guage to your intake manifold (video posted earlier).

If you guys can think of anything else that you would like me to post, please let me know. Keep in mind that my EFR came from the October/November 2012 batch (maybe the first batch) and doesn't have many miles on it. I have documented compressor surge on the car since April (car sat in garage all winter) via Trifecta AND HP Tuners. As a result of the surge the car has pretty much been down all summer as well (with the only exception being the periodic data logging).

Keep in mind that ZZP has been with me working on this so I am good with the fact they are there to support me.

Will continue to post as things progress....

 

Update: Received the new turbo. Upon arrival, I inspected it and discovered a small knick/notch in one of the exhaust fins. Turbo is being shipped back again. Should have another update in a couple of weeks.

 

Couple weeks huh.

 

We ordered a new turbo for her before she sent hers back. Her turbo left UT on October 22 to head to ZZP. We received it a few days later and sent pics to our Borg Warner supplier who forwarded them to BW. BW said it was normal to have those marks in the end of the wheel. We sent her the new turbo anyway. She received it on November 11. It would have been sooner, but we did not receive it until November 5 and UT is 4 days plus the weekend to ship.

 

So no surge for her now? Was looking to see how it ended up, but didn't come back for that last update after the couple weeks.

I have surge, maybe related to my trans issues? not sure. Trans is in the shop now. Guess I'll see when it's all done.

 

I had same issue, tune adjustment fixed it

 

K, good to know. That was my other thought.
Thanks,

 

Ya it had something to do with the turbo producing more airflow then engine could ingest. Small boost ramp adjustment made it go away.

 

Typically it happens when you bring in too much boost too quickly. In her case, the boost was real low and still surged at 4500 rpm.

 

Ah, yes my issue was to much boost to fast. Hope she gets hers sorted.

 

any update on this?

getting my turbo installed and finished tomorrow curious about any hiccups i might encounter

 

idk but I switched from trifecta to hp terminator tune and omg. care runs so much better and so much more power. that dude knows what he is doing.

 

Lol.

 

Amazing the difference is when a tuner actually cares about how a car is running

 

Ya no kidding eh. I'm almost convinced either whoever was tuning me at trifecta wasn't actually changing anything on my tune, or he really had no idea what he was doing. It wasn't Vince . They not tuning my car again. No I got a cable to get rid of lol

 

Is your K&N filter okay? It looks a lot different than mine. You have a lot more space between the rubber trim and sensor, aswell as the Filter look crooked as heck. Also is that a real pre filter shield or some sort of wax paper?

 

Wow, I never noticed that pic before. The pre-filter wrap could be what caused the surge. Since surge is based on pressure ratio between the inlet and outlet of the turbo, a restriction before the turbo would be a contributing factor.

 

ya why do u have a hydro shield on ur filter? its not a cai where ur filter is exposed to the wet. u don't need that