HHRSSouth

Well I contacted APR - High Performance Development for Audi, VW and Porsche Vehicles in Alabama about maybe doing something with our factory K04 turbocharger. They have been modifying the K04 successfully for some time. I offered my HHR SS to them or the turbocharger off my HHR SS to see what they could come up with.

Here's the response I got:

Paul,
In short, we simply don't work or modify any vehicles outside of the VAG product lineup. I am sorry we could not help you any further.

GO APR,Chris Gigon Sales Representative

Way to put the K04 on our vehicles GM, not even the aftermarket K04 tuners want to mess with it because it on a GM.

Sorry, just frustrated that no one has stepped up to make a true bolt on upgrade K04 for our cars. A upgraded compressor wheel for $825.00, isn't much of a upgrade for what you get.

bri2203

iTrader: (10)

great

tom.g

iTrader: (4)

Now that the SS/TC is done there probably won't be much new support for it at all

HHRSSouth

Well our only saving grace might be that the new Regal GS that uses the 2.0 LNF is similar enough to the 2.0 LNF engine in the HHR SS, Cobalt SS/TC, that more parts will still be developed since there will be 3 platforms that can use them. Lets hope.

Stamina

What's interesting to me is how much support the LSJ seems to have, and it was only really used on one car. The Ariel Atom had it, but that is pretty limited production. The Saab 9-3 had the LK9, which was the turbo version that the LSJ came from... still different though.

Having this engine in 4 car types and maybe a variant on newer ones will help I think. The low-ish production numbers for the cars having the engine doesn't help our cause. I think Direct Injection also scared some off because they didn't know what to make of it from an easy performance increase and tuning standpoint.

Boosted_Cobalt09

the lnf is an option in the areil atom now though.

Stamina

Wow really?! I didn't know that. I bet that thing scoots when tuned.

Boosted_Cobalt09

yeah i was watching a special on tv on the car itself(not top gear) and it showed the lnf as an option.

Stamina

Maybe it's an aftermarket thing...

It only shows different versions of a Honda K20 as engine options. http://www.arielatom.com/specs/optio...61c7ct4a8453f8

"All North American built Ariel Atom 3’s utilize a Japanese specification 2.0L Honda engine. "... but it goes on to say... "The main difference in North America is the exclusive use of Honda engines within the Ariel Atom 3 platform; The previous Ariel Atom 2’s, for the most part, utilized a GM Ecotec engine. The chassis of the Ariel Atom 3 is also slightly modified to allow for more interior space and lighter weight." So maybe it was an option on the Atom2.

Edit: Wow, there's an article about an Atom2 with a twincharged S256+Harrop1320 setup. http://www.carthrottle.com/ddmworks-...-supercharger/

We sure got off topic here.

HHRSSouth

No biggie man the post was more of a rant out of anger anyways.

But to be honest about the Ariel Atom, the way Honda supports tuners, one might be better off getting the Honda engine in one of those instead of the GM one

People can talk about how much they hate Honda, but they have one of the best support from a manufacturer (Honda themselves) in developing and tuning factory engines. Myself I don't hate Honda perse as much as I do some of the owners that drive them.

mkriebs

LOL What!? I am not sure how you expected APR to mod the K04 with anything other than a compressor wheel. Thats the ONLY upgrade available for the stock turbo. And honestly, the compressor wheel upgrade will support up to 400 crank hp efficiently. Now, before you say people have hit 400 crank hp on the stock turbo, with no wheel upgrade, yeah, they sure have, but it sure as heck wasn't efficient doing so.

Just bolting the turbo with the compressor wheel on we see 25-30 whp gains. Usually with mild tuning we see upwards of 40whp gain. I am not sure what gains you are looking for out of a stock turbo with a tiny A/R and an exducer the size of a golf ball.

northvibe

iTrader: (1)

ya..i was just going to say this, BTF (?) already has a lnf k04 upgrade...and even if it was a ford, kia, hyundia, chrysler k04 they wouldnt touch the turbo anyway. they are only going to work on those vw based cars.

mkriebs

Werks has the same thing too, we use it on our time attack Solstice, and have sold quite a few to Solstice guys. Honestly, 40+ whp for $1k isn't all that bad, considering you would pay $3500 for a big turbo kit for 100 whp over the bolt ons.

HHRSSouth

When you can develop a Dynograph with a Cobalt SS/TC or HHR SS making 400 crank hp on a K04+ without major problems, I'll believe you. I have ready every K04+ thread over the last week including the ones for the Kappa and that you have posted on. Not one post has shown a Cobalt SS/TC or HHR SS with a K04+ upgrade making 350-375 whp. Now if someone with the K04+ on a Cobalt SS/TC or HHR SS wants to post up some dyno #'s to prove me wrong, I'd be more then interested as would the rest of the community. I see alot of raving about the K04+ but yet no one can produce solid results for it on a Cobalt SS/TC or HHR SS. Solid results on our platform not the Kappa is what I'm after.

I wasn't looking so much as a pure K04 upgrade on the factory turbo from APR as I was maybe a variation or true bolt on hybrid turbo. Our turbo isn't the biggest Ko4 variation available (you know that).

Is it possible to have the flange hacked off our factory manifold and a new one welded on that would stand up to the stress?

If you want to work with me on a K04+ upgrade (at a discount) and show what it can do on our platform let me know. People want solid results, not speculation on what it should do on our platform because it works good on the Kappa platform.

northvibe

iTrader: (1)

very true, I think I've seen 1 cobalt with a k04+ dyno and it wasnt even pushed. Im surprised more of the big talkers dont get it done... I'll be tuning myself this summer with hpt. Once I get the tuning stuff figured out I'd be more comfortable getting a k04+ so I can tune for it.

mkriebs

Now, why would it be so different on a Kappa vs a Delta? And LNF is an LNF, and the Delta's seem to have a hair better flowing exhaust manifold, which would just increase power. Now the sole reason you see alot more of the K04+ on the Kappas is because its catering to a completely different demographic. You have a bunch of young kids over here that want 500whp, well thats considered silly by the majority of the Kappa community. Now, the Kappa's are making about 325-340 at the wheels on the KO4+, on conservative tunes (again, older demographic doesn't want to blow up, so they like it much more conservative). Figure in they have a min of 5% greater drivetrain loss than we do, so there's about 15whp that we will have on them, so it would put us easily in the 350whp range. EFFICIENTLY! Figure we have about 10-15% drivetrain loss, we would be looking at 385-400 crank hp.

Now, as I am sure you know, there are people making around 360whp on the stock turbo, no wheel upgrade. They are doing this outside the range of efficiency for the turbo. All things considered, if we took the KO4+ out of efficiency and overboosted it, it would be well over 400 at the crank.

Now, there are alot of people that think the KO4+ is junk, simply because a few people have had bad luck with it. We at Werks have had one complaint in all that we have sold. I know the one Cobalt I can think of off the top of my head to have this done had major problems with it, but he also had more problems than just the turbo, which were compounding the issues he was seeing. Hand ported head, clipped turbo, huge turbo port job, those can all create issues.

As for our K04 not being the biggest, I know this. BUT, you have to consider costs here when you think about upgrading. We could not just hack a flange off of our cast manifold and weld a different one on, and have it hold up to the stresses. So, we would be stuck making a turbo manifold for it, then the prices rise, and it would be more cost effective to use a turbo like the GT2871, or similar.

Stamina

Well the problem with the K04+ was initially surge. They worked around this by keeping the boost lowered a bit past a certain RPM and then unleashing it and didn't have a problem after that.

mkriebs

Honestly we have never had a complaint about surge. I am not sure what we do differently than BTF, but I have heard several complaints on his. I am led to believe it may be the porting of the turbo. The only complaint we have had, that I can recall, has been a cold starting issue, and it seems completely unrelated to the turbo... might be cold starting surge, but I think it is more related to and intake tube, BPV on the car rather than the turbo itself.

Stamina

Sounds promising.

mkriebs

I hope it is, if I wasn't paying so frickin much for college, I would plop the cash down to prove it. I mean, with the results we have had on the Kappas, there is not reason it would be any different. We have a better flowing intake and better flowing exhaust manifold, I see no reason we can't hit 400bhp. I think with the right mods, I could push 375whp off it. Might be asking alot from the turbo, but I am fairly certain I could do it or get damned close.

Stamina

Links to the intake/exhaust manifolds? You just piked my interest. lol

mkriebs

I meant that the stock cobalt exhaust mani is a little more freer flowing (seriously, not a BIG difference), but we haven't had it flow tested, just the way it has to sit in the car SEEMS (I know, I know...) better. Plus, our stock intakes have been proven to flow 40 lb/min with just a K&N drop in, not even considering the ZZP style modded airbox or silicone elbow. I wish I could find a pic of each side by side. Maybe next time i am at the shop I will look and see if we have any stock solstice parts laying around.

Honestly, the KO4+ is the best option for anyone looking to AutoX or road race. Most of the Kappa guys are looking for stock like driveability, or for AutoX use, and it works great.

HHRSSouth

Again, I'm happy the K04+ has all worked out great on the Kappa.
With that being said I want results from someone with a Cobalt SS/TC or HHR SS, the 2 people I knew that had the K04+ had problems, Hiltu who fixed his surge issue (I believe) but no new dyno results, and cobaltssoverbooster, who couldn't boost past a certian psi no matter what he did (is this fixed and does he have a dynograph).
Now have you or the place you work for actually built a k04+ for a Cobalt SS/TC or HHR SS owner? If so, tell them to post up about it, maybe some dyno graphs, otherwise known as proof of the claims on a Cobalt SS/TC or HHR SS.
I want real world results, not speculation of the Ko4+'s legitimacy off of another platform that uses the same engine that it will work as good our better on ours.
You do realize that if you could provide accurate, detailed information that this turbo does what everyone says it does you would have more Cobalt SS/TC and HHR SS owners asking for the K04+.

Well I look at it this way if a manifold was made to bolt on other popular turbo applications, then I could pick and chose of my own free will what turbocharger I want to run, not dictated by a vendors choice or pricing. Right now the vendors dictate what kits are out there for us because they have all the adapters needed.

mkriebs, I do appreciate what you and your shop is trying to do for the community, but you have to see my point about laying claims to saying something works on a application without factual proof.

mkriebs

How is that not factual proof? So, in the LS series world, you have LS3's in the G8's, and you have LS3's in the C6 Vettes. Ok, so I throw headers on one of them, I can expectvery similar gains by putting the same product on the same engine, in a different chassis.

I am not sure why you need solid proof on this platform because its been proven on the engine already. There is not one thing different on the engine, except the manifold and intake. Crank horsepower is crank hp regardless.

Now, on hiltu's turbo, that was a BTF upgrade, not sure what the issue was there. Cobaltoverbooster, same thing, BUT, his had a clipped wheel, extremely ported turbo housing, hand ported head, and a self done valve job. Thats not reliable at all, to be honest. If you saw pics of the port job, you would understand. Plus, the efficiency of the turbo is just ruined by clipping the wheel. Even BTF said that was a long shot, trying to save a wheel that ingested an intake ring.

I really am not sure where to take this. I don't understand the skepticism here. Maybe I am not understanding you fully? Or, I do not know how to explain it better?

And, I do not understand what you are talking about with the manifold? All I was saying is it would be less cost effective when you add it all up to have a mani made for a bigger KO4. And the vendors control this aspect for a reason. If we made custom mani's for everyone that wanted one, we would have 99 different manifold designs, going for 99 different turbos. Its so much more cost effective on our end to pick something and stick with it. This cost effectiveness lowers the prices for the customer so they can afford to buy the kit. Plus, the 'big' KO4 is not that much bigger than ours, so the gains would be so minimal people would never buy a kit because it makes very little gains compared to say a GT28 or otherwise.

Sure, I would love to prove this, but I have college to pay for, so don't go barking up my tree. Fork over the cash and lets prove it. We already know that it works on this motor, so I see no need to porve it any further.

HHRSSouth

Thats the problem no one in our community wants to fork over the money ($1k) for the k04+ wheel upgrade because the 2 people that had the uprgrade had nothing but problems. Either someone with the upgrade needs to post up good results or people need to stop giving out numbers for our platform for the ko4+ without proof, you said yourself we use a few different parts. I find it amazing you are willing to sit here and say positively that our platform would have similar results without testing it on said vehicles.

FYI I was all set on the K04+ wheel upgrade going off what everyone was saying, until I started researching more and found out the people that have had the K04+ on our platform had nothing but problems and got lackluster performance. As a matter of fact I read a few posts where you were going to run this K04+ upgrade, hows that turning out?

If your company wants to guarantee that I will get the whp and results your claiming, I got my money sitting right here for the upgrade. Can't get much more simple then that.

By the way I'm a full time college student also, so if I spend my money on parts I want quality and proven parts, I don't like throwing away 1 grand on nothing.