intercooler upgrade
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From: Belleville, IL
intercooler upgrade
hey I was wondering if anyone has bought a cheap intercooler upgrade set off of Ebay. I know it has to be fabricated and it's DIY yourself but I wonder what the major difference between these and the high dollar ones are. Here is the site. Let me know what you think.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts...=p4506.c0.m245
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts...=p4506.c0.m245
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Joined: 05-18-05
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From: Boston & SoCal
Have you placed thermocouple probes in the inlet and outlet of the stock intercooler as well as a calibrated pressure gauge on each side of the stock intercooler to measure pressure drop? If not how do you know that the factory unit needs to be upgraded on a stock turbo car? At what point when increasing boost, modifying the car, or even slapping a different turbo on the car will it need (if ever) a bigger intercooler for your modifications?
The point I'm trying to make is that it's all too easy to throw parts at a car and waste money but if you don't test you won't know whether those parts were needed. And especially when buying cheap intercoolers off places like eBay how would you know that you weren't hurting performance by switching the stock one out if you're not testing? While there are some decent intercoolers being sold on eBay and on some cars they’ll respond well to them, there are also some that are pretty poor (both core and construction quality) units you'll run across and we don't know what they'll do on the Cobalt. I've personally been tracking charge temps on my scan tool compare to inlet and ambient but still want to do some testing like stated above. And until a few people do this and post their results I'd be careful about throwing stuff at the car.
The point I'm trying to make is that it's all too easy to throw parts at a car and waste money but if you don't test you won't know whether those parts were needed. And especially when buying cheap intercoolers off places like eBay how would you know that you weren't hurting performance by switching the stock one out if you're not testing? While there are some decent intercoolers being sold on eBay and on some cars they’ll respond well to them, there are also some that are pretty poor (both core and construction quality) units you'll run across and we don't know what they'll do on the Cobalt. I've personally been tracking charge temps on my scan tool compare to inlet and ambient but still want to do some testing like stated above. And until a few people do this and post their results I'd be careful about throwing stuff at the car.
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Joined: 06-11-08
Posts: 1,125
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From: The Mogadishu of the Midwest
Have you placed thermocouple probes in the inlet and outlet of the stock intercooler as well as a calibrated pressure gauge on each side of the stock intercooler to measure pressure drop? If not how do you know that the factory unit needs to be upgraded on a stock turbo car? At what point when increasing boost, modifying the car, or even slapping a different turbo on the car will it need (if ever) a bigger intercooler for your modifications?
The point I'm trying to make is that it's all too easy to throw parts at a car and waste money but if you don't test you won't know whether those parts were needed. And especially when buying cheap intercoolers off places like eBay how would you know that you weren't hurting performance by switching the stock one out if you're not testing? While there are some decent intercoolers being sold on eBay and on some cars theyll respond well to them, there are also some that are pretty poor (both core and construction quality) units you'll run across and we don't know what they'll do on the Cobalt. I've personally been tracking charge temps on my scan tool compare to inlet and ambient but still want to do some testing like stated above. And until a few people do this and post their results I'd be careful about throwing stuff at the car.
The point I'm trying to make is that it's all too easy to throw parts at a car and waste money but if you don't test you won't know whether those parts were needed. And especially when buying cheap intercoolers off places like eBay how would you know that you weren't hurting performance by switching the stock one out if you're not testing? While there are some decent intercoolers being sold on eBay and on some cars theyll respond well to them, there are also some that are pretty poor (both core and construction quality) units you'll run across and we don't know what they'll do on the Cobalt. I've personally been tracking charge temps on my scan tool compare to inlet and ambient but still want to do some testing like stated above. And until a few people do this and post their results I'd be careful about throwing stuff at the car.
What datalogging software are you using? I would like to pick something up before I go to the Dragon.
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Joined: 05-18-05
Posts: 1,070
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From: Boston & SoCal
Just because it's cheap and on eBay doesn't necessarily make it crap. Many of the same type and size intercoolers on the market use the exact same core sourced from somewhere in the far east. On some cars you might see a nice gain while other cars might not and that's what I'm not sure of on the stock or lightly modified Cobalts yet.
Generally a lot of the stock intercoolers end up being slightly compromised in performance due to packaging requirements, cost, and other factors, so they might benefit from one of those larger aftermarket units. I've seen eBay and rockbottom-priced units perform just as well as bigger brand name intercoolers coting two to three times the price. Then again I've seen ones that don't perform significantly better than stock on some cars.
Lets say you had a car with a very poor cooling and flowing stock intercooler (probably not the case on the Cobalt) and that car shows good gains from a cheap intercooler as well as from more expensive intercoolers. Does that mean you should save money and buy a cheap one? Maybe. Optimally you'd have some flow numbers, pressure drop and temperature tests for the different intercoolers and could form a cost-vs.-performance.
If they perform similarly there's a few other things to look for that often get overlooked. One of the most important is construction quality. The core could be the same as another intercooler but if they used thin end tanks and can't weld very good it's easy to burn through the aluminum while welding. I've also seen a lot of welding slag (the tiny pieces of aluminum "chip" looking things that you ight be able to scrape off) inside the end tanks of some cheap intercoolers. You need to take a look at the overall weld quality (i.e. a nice, clean, smooth and even weld bead) and also see what they pressure tested the complete intercooler to (not just the core). A good company might test them to 50 psi, another one maybe to 20 psi, while another place might just quote manufacturer pressure tests just for the core.
End tank design can affect flow and pressure drop measurements but again is something you'd have to test for, but another construction quality to look at is how the intercooler mounts to include mounting brackets and reinforcements. Some cheap ones might just tack on a couple "L" or "U"-shaped brackets formed from the same thin material as the endtanks while another manufacturer might add bracing and use thicker mounts.
You'd also want to ask if they flush the assembly out after it is finished. A good company will have a thorough cleaning process to ensure no foreign material will make its way from the itnercooler into your engine while other places might just shake the thing out or worse, not even clean it. Some other things to look for is how long the person/company has been around and what type of warranty the intercooler comes with. I've seen more than a few cheap and expensive intercoolers split a seem under high boost. Will they stand behind their product? What do other people think of their service?
One last thing that gets overlooked is the shipping and more specifically the packaging. When I was testing a few different intercoolers for the Neon SRT-4 I received one that was literally thrown in a flimsy box and shipped out. The end tanks weren't sealed, a bracket was poking through the side of the box and bent when I received it and some of the fins ont he core were crushed. Then when I took it out of the box and shook it I heard metal inside the tanks that upon inspection looked like welding slag that wasn't cleaned out. It probably wouldn't have damage anything but definitely wasn't something I'd want going into the engine given the option. On polar opposites the next one I received (from Advanced Intercooling Systems out in W. Virginia) had the core separately wrapped in thick cardboard, a custom box with custom Styrofoam and cardboard supports, and had caps installed to keep dirt and other stuff from getting into the end tanks during shipping. I was so impressed I still have that box and packaging to this day in case I ever need to ship one.
Those are some of the bigs things that get overlooked. Do your homework and it's possible a cheap eBay cooler could be a good choice for the money but you have to be careful to look at what you're getting for that money and not just going off core size, price alone or other marketing reasons.
Generally a lot of the stock intercoolers end up being slightly compromised in performance due to packaging requirements, cost, and other factors, so they might benefit from one of those larger aftermarket units. I've seen eBay and rockbottom-priced units perform just as well as bigger brand name intercoolers coting two to three times the price. Then again I've seen ones that don't perform significantly better than stock on some cars.
Lets say you had a car with a very poor cooling and flowing stock intercooler (probably not the case on the Cobalt) and that car shows good gains from a cheap intercooler as well as from more expensive intercoolers. Does that mean you should save money and buy a cheap one? Maybe. Optimally you'd have some flow numbers, pressure drop and temperature tests for the different intercoolers and could form a cost-vs.-performance.
If they perform similarly there's a few other things to look for that often get overlooked. One of the most important is construction quality. The core could be the same as another intercooler but if they used thin end tanks and can't weld very good it's easy to burn through the aluminum while welding. I've also seen a lot of welding slag (the tiny pieces of aluminum "chip" looking things that you ight be able to scrape off) inside the end tanks of some cheap intercoolers. You need to take a look at the overall weld quality (i.e. a nice, clean, smooth and even weld bead) and also see what they pressure tested the complete intercooler to (not just the core). A good company might test them to 50 psi, another one maybe to 20 psi, while another place might just quote manufacturer pressure tests just for the core.
End tank design can affect flow and pressure drop measurements but again is something you'd have to test for, but another construction quality to look at is how the intercooler mounts to include mounting brackets and reinforcements. Some cheap ones might just tack on a couple "L" or "U"-shaped brackets formed from the same thin material as the endtanks while another manufacturer might add bracing and use thicker mounts.
You'd also want to ask if they flush the assembly out after it is finished. A good company will have a thorough cleaning process to ensure no foreign material will make its way from the itnercooler into your engine while other places might just shake the thing out or worse, not even clean it. Some other things to look for is how long the person/company has been around and what type of warranty the intercooler comes with. I've seen more than a few cheap and expensive intercoolers split a seem under high boost. Will they stand behind their product? What do other people think of their service?
One last thing that gets overlooked is the shipping and more specifically the packaging. When I was testing a few different intercoolers for the Neon SRT-4 I received one that was literally thrown in a flimsy box and shipped out. The end tanks weren't sealed, a bracket was poking through the side of the box and bent when I received it and some of the fins ont he core were crushed. Then when I took it out of the box and shook it I heard metal inside the tanks that upon inspection looked like welding slag that wasn't cleaned out. It probably wouldn't have damage anything but definitely wasn't something I'd want going into the engine given the option. On polar opposites the next one I received (from Advanced Intercooling Systems out in W. Virginia) had the core separately wrapped in thick cardboard, a custom box with custom Styrofoam and cardboard supports, and had caps installed to keep dirt and other stuff from getting into the end tanks during shipping. I was so impressed I still have that box and packaging to this day in case I ever need to ship one.
Those are some of the bigs things that get overlooked. Do your homework and it's possible a cheap eBay cooler could be a good choice for the money but you have to be careful to look at what you're getting for that money and not just going off core size, price alone or other marketing reasons.
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