Comparing ttr stop mounts to ottp rotated mounts
02-18-2010, 08:02 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Comparing ttr stop mounts to ottp rotated mounts
THE 0TTP ROTATED MOUNT COMPARED TO THE TTR STOP MOUNT.
The first thing to do when we received the TTR mounts, was to review the literature: here we go:
Turbo Tech Racing STOP Transmission Mounts.
Which stands for: "Strategically Torque Optimized Positioner Mounts”
These mounts are Strategically designed to have a Torque Optimized Position. They will reduce engine movement, due to the firmer bushings (Optimized), and also align the axles (Positioner); increase the torque transfer to the wheels.
More Information:
1. Firmer bushings/less wheel hop/more torque transfer
2. Works with the Turbo Tech Racing Upper Engine Mount
3. No "inserts" to press in, come full assembled, direct bolt in
4. No "stage" kits to buy, these fully position your Cobalt
5. Made in the USA @ Turbo Tech Racing, LLC
6. Strong light-weight aircraft grade 6061-T6 aluminum
7. Engraved with the “TTR” logo (Shown in Photo's)
8. Comes with a full color install sheet
9. Quality of Turbo Tech Racing is known to be the best
10. Closer bolt to sleeve hole diameter, for a closer precision mount. We do not use a generic bushing; it is custom/specific to this mount, unlike other companies who use off the shelf bushing/sleeves.
11. Choice of Red or Black Bushings
12. Alignment was done in house using a state of the art CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) (Faro Brand)
These have been track tested on many Cobalts already, ranging up to over 400+ HP! For references please let us know.
Fits:
2005-07 Chevrolet Cobalt SS/SC 2.0L, F35 Trans
2008-10 Chevrolet Cobalt SS/TC 2.0L, F35 Trans
List Price: $399.99
Price: $279.99
0TTP say:
These new mounts rotate the engine and trans to align the axles. This does two things, it eliminates wheel hop and it helps your axles/trans case survive. Unlike poly mounts these are far less harsh and will have less vibrations. These are made from Billet 6061 aluminum and cnc machined You will have 2 options when ordering.
Stage 1 Use's a Billet rotated front mount with a spacer under the stock rear mount. This is for sub 300whp cars. There will be very little vibration from the mounts.
Stage 2 Use's Billet front and back rotated mounts and the spacer is built into the rear mount. This is for the avid drag racer, these will have slightly more vibration then stock but nothing close to poly. Stage 2 will also help get more power to the ground, due to the mounts limiting engine movement.
Billet mounts are only for 05 and up cars. If you have an 04 please contact us as you will have a core charge on your front mount, a little longer wait period and the pricing is different.
Made by Powell RaceShop for 0ver The Top Performance.
List Price: $265.00
Price: $205.
Stage 2 add 125.00= $330.00
Now lets open the box and review the mounts:
TTR, attractively powder coated black with Red Poly insert and powder coated center alloy bushing.
0TTP attractively machined natural aluminum with a jacketed rubber voided insert, and two alloy spacers
The picture here does not have the insert pressed in
The next thing we did was compare the center line of the bushings of the two brands of mounts compared to each other. It is well documented that the 0TTP ones came out first. The TTR ones are not identical probably a couple of millimetres off. Dont think it makes much of a difference.
Next step was to determine what they are made of. Both subjected to a material analysis by our friendly scrap yard guy with hand held tool. (next month we will send out all the comparative parts we have to the lab., for non destructive materials analysis. Both brands of mounts are 98+% alloy and 1+% iron.
Best guess: 6061 grade alloy.
Next step was to look closely at the machining, at the drilled and tapped holes of the rear mount and for the TTR mount remove the powder coat a bit more. The two mounts are different, the threaded holes are dull in the TTR mount, not shiny like the competition. Wgat does it mean? Well we put the little tab at the bottom of the rear mount in the vice , clamped and pushed.
TTR mount snapped the tab!
The 0TTP mount spread the jaws in the vice, the tab did not break!
The 0TTP mount is damaged but not broken:
We gotta figure this out. Drilled the material:
We got a similar sized piece of 6061 3.16 material about a ¼ inch wide and put that in the vice . Note the broken tab on the vice beside:
Stuck an adjustable wrench on the tab for leverage and pushed:
Bends but does not break.
Conclusion: The TTR mounts are (sand?) cast aluminum to a shape, and then machined. We know the 0TTP mounts are machined from a solid block of T6061 alloy. Casting makes the material more brittle than machined blocks of alloy. Does it make a difference for strength? Considering the overall mass of the TTR mount, maybe nnot. For weight: Well for sure the TTR mount is very heavy by comparison, even to the OEM mount which is of similar size.
TTR Rear
TTR front
0TTP front
The bottom line to all this? 2.4/ 2.9 lbs for the TTR mount and 1.2/1.4 lbs for the 0TTP mount. The machined billet from Josh and Sean is half the weight of the machined cast TTR mount.
The discussion of a voided bushing as a center compared to Poly is easy. A Poly mount transmits vibration more than a voided bushing which itself is designed to support but isolate vibration. The poly in the TTR mount a very nice deep red color, but is not uniform in finish however, and may have been made locally. Poly is sensitive to humidity when being poured, this may have happened to these mounts.
The center bushing in the TTR mount is a band saw cut sleeve, not very well finished or consistent in width mount to mount. The 0TTP bushings are machine cut on a lathe and well finished to a precise size, every spacer is identical in width..
Look closely at this picture you can see the rough cut center sleeve.
In conclusion you make your own choices.
A good question is “ where are the TTR mounts cast? It looks like a sand casting. Was it done off shore? In which case the statement “made in the USA” is perhaps not accurate.
The 0TTP mounts are 100% not made in the USA. They aare made in Canada. The alloy comes from the same smelter that produces alloy for the GM LS engines. In fact all LS engine castings are made in Canada.
At the end of the day, review the prices of the mounts and decide for yourself the quality, weight, function, NVH and durability you wish.
The first thing to do when we received the TTR mounts, was to review the literature: here we go:
Turbo Tech Racing STOP Transmission Mounts.
Which stands for: "Strategically Torque Optimized Positioner Mounts”
These mounts are Strategically designed to have a Torque Optimized Position. They will reduce engine movement, due to the firmer bushings (Optimized), and also align the axles (Positioner); increase the torque transfer to the wheels.
More Information:
1. Firmer bushings/less wheel hop/more torque transfer
2. Works with the Turbo Tech Racing Upper Engine Mount
3. No "inserts" to press in, come full assembled, direct bolt in
4. No "stage" kits to buy, these fully position your Cobalt
5. Made in the USA @ Turbo Tech Racing, LLC
6. Strong light-weight aircraft grade 6061-T6 aluminum
7. Engraved with the “TTR” logo (Shown in Photo's)
8. Comes with a full color install sheet
9. Quality of Turbo Tech Racing is known to be the best
10. Closer bolt to sleeve hole diameter, for a closer precision mount. We do not use a generic bushing; it is custom/specific to this mount, unlike other companies who use off the shelf bushing/sleeves.
11. Choice of Red or Black Bushings
12. Alignment was done in house using a state of the art CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) (Faro Brand)
These have been track tested on many Cobalts already, ranging up to over 400+ HP! For references please let us know.
Fits:
2005-07 Chevrolet Cobalt SS/SC 2.0L, F35 Trans
2008-10 Chevrolet Cobalt SS/TC 2.0L, F35 Trans
List Price: $399.99
Price: $279.99
0TTP say:
These new mounts rotate the engine and trans to align the axles. This does two things, it eliminates wheel hop and it helps your axles/trans case survive. Unlike poly mounts these are far less harsh and will have less vibrations. These are made from Billet 6061 aluminum and cnc machined You will have 2 options when ordering.
Stage 1 Use's a Billet rotated front mount with a spacer under the stock rear mount. This is for sub 300whp cars. There will be very little vibration from the mounts.
Stage 2 Use's Billet front and back rotated mounts and the spacer is built into the rear mount. This is for the avid drag racer, these will have slightly more vibration then stock but nothing close to poly. Stage 2 will also help get more power to the ground, due to the mounts limiting engine movement.
Billet mounts are only for 05 and up cars. If you have an 04 please contact us as you will have a core charge on your front mount, a little longer wait period and the pricing is different.
Made by Powell RaceShop for 0ver The Top Performance.
List Price: $265.00
Price: $205.
Stage 2 add 125.00= $330.00
Now lets open the box and review the mounts:
TTR, attractively powder coated black with Red Poly insert and powder coated center alloy bushing.
0TTP attractively machined natural aluminum with a jacketed rubber voided insert, and two alloy spacers
The picture here does not have the insert pressed in
The next thing we did was compare the center line of the bushings of the two brands of mounts compared to each other. It is well documented that the 0TTP ones came out first. The TTR ones are not identical probably a couple of millimetres off. Dont think it makes much of a difference.
Next step was to determine what they are made of. Both subjected to a material analysis by our friendly scrap yard guy with hand held tool. (next month we will send out all the comparative parts we have to the lab., for non destructive materials analysis. Both brands of mounts are 98+% alloy and 1+% iron.
Best guess: 6061 grade alloy.
Next step was to look closely at the machining, at the drilled and tapped holes of the rear mount and for the TTR mount remove the powder coat a bit more. The two mounts are different, the threaded holes are dull in the TTR mount, not shiny like the competition. Wgat does it mean? Well we put the little tab at the bottom of the rear mount in the vice , clamped and pushed.
TTR mount snapped the tab!
The 0TTP mount spread the jaws in the vice, the tab did not break!
The 0TTP mount is damaged but not broken:
We gotta figure this out. Drilled the material:
We got a similar sized piece of 6061 3.16 material about a ¼ inch wide and put that in the vice . Note the broken tab on the vice beside:
Stuck an adjustable wrench on the tab for leverage and pushed:
Bends but does not break.
Conclusion: The TTR mounts are (sand?) cast aluminum to a shape, and then machined. We know the 0TTP mounts are machined from a solid block of T6061 alloy. Casting makes the material more brittle than machined blocks of alloy. Does it make a difference for strength? Considering the overall mass of the TTR mount, maybe nnot. For weight: Well for sure the TTR mount is very heavy by comparison, even to the OEM mount which is of similar size.
TTR Rear
TTR front
0TTP front
The bottom line to all this? 2.4/ 2.9 lbs for the TTR mount and 1.2/1.4 lbs for the 0TTP mount. The machined billet from Josh and Sean is half the weight of the machined cast TTR mount.
The discussion of a voided bushing as a center compared to Poly is easy. A Poly mount transmits vibration more than a voided bushing which itself is designed to support but isolate vibration. The poly in the TTR mount a very nice deep red color, but is not uniform in finish however, and may have been made locally. Poly is sensitive to humidity when being poured, this may have happened to these mounts.
The center bushing in the TTR mount is a band saw cut sleeve, not very well finished or consistent in width mount to mount. The 0TTP bushings are machine cut on a lathe and well finished to a precise size, every spacer is identical in width..
Look closely at this picture you can see the rough cut center sleeve.
In conclusion you make your own choices. A good question is “ where are the TTR mounts cast? It looks like a sand casting. Was it done off shore? In which case the statement “made in the USA” is perhaps not accurate.
The 0TTP mounts are 100% not made in the USA. They aare made in Canada. The alloy comes from the same smelter that produces alloy for the GM LS engines. In fact all LS engine castings are made in Canada.
At the end of the day, review the prices of the mounts and decide for yourself the quality, weight, function, NVH and durability you wish.
02-18-2010, 08:13 PM
#3
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I know the practicality and function of the rotated mounts, but I'd like to hear the response that will come from this.
Anyways, thanks for the analysis John. I still have to send you that email. Haven't forgotten about that.
Anyways, thanks for the analysis John. I still have to send you that email. Haven't forgotten about that.
good read John
02-18-2010, 08:34 PM
#10
Senior Member
I'm almost afraid to post in this thread 
. Looks like the testing went well though. This also proves that TTR did not copy the design. They used the idea yes, but the test proves the differences. *puts on flamesuit*
. Looks like the testing went well though. This also proves that TTR did not copy the design. They used the idea yes, but the test proves the differences. *puts on flamesuit*
02-18-2010, 08:37 PM
#11
Haz l33t wheelz.
This is real time testing of two products. Both were subjected to equal tests.
One product is clearly superior.
No arguing, no bickering.
02-18-2010, 11:42 PM
#16
Over all good comparision! just to re cap:
1. They are FULL CNC machined for 6061 - T6 which the billet is made in the USA. They are NOT cast/then machined as stated.
2. That tab that broke has no structural need guys... It is a locater tab, and once bolted in place has NO force applied to it.
3. Yes it is heavier by 1.X lbs... Do you realize that is a large cheeseburger. (why is it larger/more weight see below)
4. Yes the price is better on the TTR ones, as you dont have 1 guy make, and then sold through a dealer, and then to a customer. We sell direct, and saves you $.
5. A saw cut bushing causes what harm? It just has to be a spacer width to torque the frame bracket over.
In reference to the "tab":
A small part will tear out, where as a larger piece will bend. It is how aluminum works. Even .050" will make a large difference. But in this case there is NO NEED for any strengh in this part, it is a simple locator. It also apears that the other brand one is larger is width, which has a huge impact on this.
Do a break test on the main bushing holder, ours vis theirs.... Theirs will break first, ours has more cross sectional area... Who cares though if theirs is not as strong in that point... It is still stronger than it needs to be... No one has ever broke one their mount, nor ours at this area.
(why is it larger/more weight see below) con't...
To use "poly" we needed a larger diameter, to keep vibs down. (Small bushing diameter would have massive vibs) Becuase of this, we have a "out side diamter limitation" to fit in the physical frame/car. We went "wider" as you can see, for the purpose of the bushing. But still having a fairly thick side fall for the bushing, so one point would not suffer a strength issue. So in recap, there is more material there becuase the bushing is wider.
1. They are FULL CNC machined for 6061 - T6 which the billet is made in the USA. They are NOT cast/then machined as stated.
2. That tab that broke has no structural need guys... It is a locater tab, and once bolted in place has NO force applied to it.
3. Yes it is heavier by 1.X lbs... Do you realize that is a large cheeseburger. (why is it larger/more weight see below)
4. Yes the price is better on the TTR ones, as you dont have 1 guy make, and then sold through a dealer, and then to a customer. We sell direct, and saves you $.
5. A saw cut bushing causes what harm? It just has to be a spacer width to torque the frame bracket over.
In reference to the "tab":
A small part will tear out, where as a larger piece will bend. It is how aluminum works. Even .050" will make a large difference. But in this case there is NO NEED for any strengh in this part, it is a simple locator. It also apears that the other brand one is larger is width, which has a huge impact on this.
Do a break test on the main bushing holder, ours vis theirs.... Theirs will break first, ours has more cross sectional area... Who cares though if theirs is not as strong in that point... It is still stronger than it needs to be... No one has ever broke one their mount, nor ours at this area.
(why is it larger/more weight see below) con't...
To use "poly" we needed a larger diameter, to keep vibs down. (Small bushing diameter would have massive vibs) Becuase of this, we have a "out side diamter limitation" to fit in the physical frame/car. We went "wider" as you can see, for the purpose of the bushing. But still having a fairly thick side fall for the bushing, so one point would not suffer a strength issue. So in recap, there is more material there becuase the bushing is wider.
02-18-2010, 11:55 PM
#18
We felt more firm/rigid was needed, it is actually what our customers asked for. We believe that firming up the drivetrain helps allow smoother shifts, prevents downpipes from breaking (flexs), prevents some wheel hop, etc.... we had a reason, we didnt want a factory rubber control arm bushing in our mount, we wanted to have a more firm. We clearly state we have vibs, we dont hide it. They are there, but they are there for a reason.
I am sure there is a reason for rubber, first guess would be less vibs. But I will let that side speak about their product.
I am sure there is a reason for rubber, first guess would be less vibs. But I will let that side speak about their product.
02-18-2010, 11:59 PM
#19
We felt more firm/rigid was needed, it is actually what our customers asked for. We believe that firming up the drivetrain helps allow smoother shifts, prevents downpipes from breaking (flexs), prevents some wheel hop, etc.... we had a reason, we didnt want a factory rubber control arm bushing in our mount, we wanted to have a more firm. We clearly state we have vibs, we dont hide it. They are there, but they are there for a reason.
I am sure there is a reason for rubber, first guess would be less vibs. But I will let that side speak about their product.
I am sure there is a reason for rubber, first guess would be less vibs. But I will let that side speak about their product.
so Aaron, why do poly bushings inside of the control arm get destroyed so easily yet the factory ones work for so much longer?
02-19-2010, 12:10 AM
#21
02-19-2010, 12:25 AM
#22
also .. if it was just a locator tab or not.. nothing should break..
02-19-2010, 12:28 AM
#23
because poly mounts are subject to moister and humidity they dry out and crack.. where as the factory ones are rubber which have much more give.. rubber also has better dampening properties then poly as well
also .. if it was just a locator tab or not.. nothing should break..
also .. if it was just a locator tab or not.. nothing should break..
Who stated our locater tab is not smaller, even .050" smaller will make a huge difference on strength... You dont need strength in this tab, nor did we design it to need it.