Enthusiasts and vendors alike... header testing inside!
09-10-2009, 08:37 PM
#626
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Sooooo,
Why would I care about 260hp first of all? Only the medusa header made numbers like that on MY car. Every thing else produced over 300hp. Don't know why you're stuck on that number. Maybe it's magical or something to you. And there was no other pm. The two I posted are all there is. If he had sent them to me, then I would have posted information other than what I know. All the numbers I've made are for a heavily modified balt. I even said how I felt it would perform for other lower modded cars.
And please don't try to lecture me about what I need to do. Maybe try working on yours, and try to unwrap you head from the pole which is 260hp. I left my car in the wrong person's hands, I'm not crying about it. So my engine blew..., she'll be back on the road soon, probably before thanksgiving. The Phantom will rise again...
I'm assuming you have some sort of engineering background. One thing I've learned about engineering personnel: they have great knowledge, but lack common sense. I wonder why you would want to put your foot in your mouth, but looking at your avatar, you have eight, so I guess it makes no difference. Maybe their different flavors??? Self contained entertainment for your stupidity?
Ask questions before you decide to fire shots at me.
Rippin 07 seems like a nice guy, but I never received a return pm from him. And I have yet to lie on here to anyone about anything.
Lastly, I'm not a troll, nor am I a bitch. I'm not going to follow you to another forum to start a fight. You have a problem with me on here, let's deal here. You already sound stupid for trying to cut me down at the knees and failing. Guess you're used to failing. It's an engineering thing isn't it?
Why would I care about 260hp first of all? Only the medusa header made numbers like that on MY car. Every thing else produced over 300hp. Don't know why you're stuck on that number. Maybe it's magical or something to you. And there was no other pm. The two I posted are all there is. If he had sent them to me, then I would have posted information other than what I know. All the numbers I've made are for a heavily modified balt. I even said how I felt it would perform for other lower modded cars.
And please don't try to lecture me about what I need to do. Maybe try working on yours, and try to unwrap you head from the pole which is 260hp. I left my car in the wrong person's hands, I'm not crying about it. So my engine blew..., she'll be back on the road soon, probably before thanksgiving. The Phantom will rise again...
I'm assuming you have some sort of engineering background. One thing I've learned about engineering personnel: they have great knowledge, but lack common sense. I wonder why you would want to put your foot in your mouth, but looking at your avatar, you have eight, so I guess it makes no difference. Maybe their different flavors??? Self contained entertainment for your stupidity?
Ask questions before you decide to fire shots at me.
Rippin 07 seems like a nice guy, but I never received a return pm from him. And I have yet to lie on here to anyone about anything.
Lastly, I'm not a troll, nor am I a bitch. I'm not going to follow you to another forum to start a fight. You have a problem with me on here, let's deal here. You already sound stupid for trying to cut me down at the knees and failing. Guess you're used to failing. It's an engineering thing isn't it?
Now on the rest... I was working around the 260HP number purely to show that you had an issue with that test. If we can make more power than you did, with less of a build, but with the same header... obviously something went wrong.
I don't understand why it's so hard for you to simply say 'the header test potentially had a **** up'.... or 'the data may not be accurate'. Just admit something went wrong, and try the test again when your car is fixed... simple.
About my background, and how I do things. Yet, I have an engineering background. However, I also have a vast amount of hands on experience, of which dates both before and after I started my career in this particular field. If you want a run down of my stats, go search for them... god knows I've only posted them a million times.
Since you've brought up the subject... what are your qualifications?
And finally, about the reply to the PM... that's between you and Rippin. As he posted on RLF, he'll be clearing this all up after the weekend.
Tyler,
Do you think it would be feasible to have all the headers tested in a days time? I see where you are coming from with the consistency stand point but if the runs were all performed with the same cf (which i believe they were with the exception of vibrant) on the same dyno thats the best you can hope for in the real world.
Results were posted with the same tune for each one i thought? As well as a modified tune to each one so it performed the best. Would you honestly tell me if your car was knocking under load well on the dyno you wouldn't pull the timing?
I also believe it was stated and acknowledged that he had a sub par built header from jbp (not hard to believe becuase 3 different companies made them for them), and even offered to test someone else's. As for the 260 hp limit if thats all he could muster out of it then one could conclude that for his setup thats the limit.
Do you think it would be feasible to have all the headers tested in a days time? I see where you are coming from with the consistency stand point but if the runs were all performed with the same cf (which i believe they were with the exception of vibrant) on the same dyno thats the best you can hope for in the real world.
Results were posted with the same tune for each one i thought? As well as a modified tune to each one so it performed the best. Would you honestly tell me if your car was knocking under load well on the dyno you wouldn't pull the timing?
I also believe it was stated and acknowledged that he had a sub par built header from jbp (not hard to believe becuase 3 different companies made them for them), and even offered to test someone else's. As for the 260 hp limit if thats all he could muster out of it then one could conclude that for his setup thats the limit.
The suggestion to dyno all on the same day (feasible or not) is merely a means of controlling external abuse that can offset the results.
But while your on the topic of testing and feasibility... I did mention that if such a task can't be accomplished by an amateur enthusiast, it should be left to the people who have such resources. We both know there are ways to accomplish all of these header tests with in a day... or even an afternoon. It just depends on if you have the right tools for the job.
I know you read up on my opinions on the subject over yonder... and that the whole quality issue did arise. It was verified by Rippin07 and myself (and possibly Raptors67) that the header used in said test had a manufacturing issue.
Now as stated above, whether it was a prior engine issue, a manufacturing issue, or a test control issue... the fact still remains; something went wrong.
If it was an engine issue; get the engine fixed, try again.
If it was a manufacturing issue; contact JBP, get a header that is built the way it was designed to be made.
If it was a control issue; review, rethink, revise and retry the test.
From my perspective, that's all i've been saying. I received a poorly designed header, and it hurt MY car in many ways. They pushed the hype about the header when it was on the way to the market, and then every now and then, they come out to see if anyone else is interested. I don't know of one company that believes in their product and just doesn't bother to have hard proof of the gains from using that said product. Look up the thread from the first sale proposition of the vortex, and count how many times people asked for the same thing. They either couldn't or just didn't want to satisfy the consumer.
I'll state again... three of us have seen superior results... therefore the header has more potential that what was seen in your test.
09-10-2009, 09:15 PM
#627
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Check it out man. Just remember what you said as a response to what I posted giving everyone a background of what's happened since last August (2008). I don't know what bunk means, except maybe for a bed or a place to hide. And you said that I should admit the test was fucked. Tell me how that sounds to you. To me that sounds like a direct shot at me. As I said before, I would have been open to suggestion. And going through different headers in one day would have been very much impossible. I don't know how hard it was for you to get that header on, but it was about three hours for me.
The steering rack had to be loosened just to get the header back behind the block. The installation and removal time would have made things next to impossible as far as getting it all done in one day. Maybe you're right in saying that things should be left up to those who have more resources. But tell me what has gotten done on here waiting for "those people" to get things done. How many things can you remember were done on a massive scale like you're talking. I honestly don't know of any.
And if you want to say that something was wrong with my car, then it still leads back to the header being made in a poor manner. I don't know if you bothered to read what I posted before you decided to post on here, but I flat out said that the car was tuned every time a change to the powerplant was made. I didn't think the header could have wreaked that much havoc on my engine, but having to pull 12 degrees of timing total just to get it to work is ******* unacceptable..., I don't care what you say.
As far as my background, I am in the military. I deal with combat systems, namely dealing with the Aegis Weapon system: High scale air defense. I am a Fire Controlman, in control of the air defense picture, as well as the connections with undersea, surface, electronic, and strike warfare. I could wipe out all of my ship's defensive capabilities in a matter of 3 minutes, maybe less if I want to use a sledgehammer. My main strengths have to deal with networking warfare systems throughout my ship. My car is my hobby, and I have maintained that since I got on here. I am still learning about my car, and I'm glad that this happened to me. I get another chance to learn about the car that I love so much.
my main beef (i guess) resides in the point that I still have yet to see anything that shows gains from the header. I still have yet to see anything from you or rippin, or the other person you speak of. If you have something to show, then please do!
There was no misunderstanding, I just typed the wrong thing. I'll say again, if you have something to show, then by all means.
I have special plans for the car, and October 1 will be when things start. She will be fixed.
P.S.- what does 'snippy' mean?
The steering rack had to be loosened just to get the header back behind the block. The installation and removal time would have made things next to impossible as far as getting it all done in one day. Maybe you're right in saying that things should be left up to those who have more resources. But tell me what has gotten done on here waiting for "those people" to get things done. How many things can you remember were done on a massive scale like you're talking. I honestly don't know of any.
And if you want to say that something was wrong with my car, then it still leads back to the header being made in a poor manner. I don't know if you bothered to read what I posted before you decided to post on here, but I flat out said that the car was tuned every time a change to the powerplant was made. I didn't think the header could have wreaked that much havoc on my engine, but having to pull 12 degrees of timing total just to get it to work is ******* unacceptable..., I don't care what you say.
As far as my background, I am in the military. I deal with combat systems, namely dealing with the Aegis Weapon system: High scale air defense. I am a Fire Controlman, in control of the air defense picture, as well as the connections with undersea, surface, electronic, and strike warfare. I could wipe out all of my ship's defensive capabilities in a matter of 3 minutes, maybe less if I want to use a sledgehammer. My main strengths have to deal with networking warfare systems throughout my ship. My car is my hobby, and I have maintained that since I got on here. I am still learning about my car, and I'm glad that this happened to me. I get another chance to learn about the car that I love so much.
my main beef (i guess) resides in the point that I still have yet to see anything that shows gains from the header. I still have yet to see anything from you or rippin, or the other person you speak of. If you have something to show, then please do!
There was no misunderstanding, I just typed the wrong thing. I'll say again, if you have something to show, then by all means.
I have special plans for the car, and October 1 will be when things start. She will be fixed.
P.S.- what does 'snippy' mean?
09-10-2009, 10:01 PM
#628
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Omega_5, why are destroying a thread many find informative? Isn't this grounds for Admin to slap you with the ban stick? As far as I see it, this is harrassment in its entirety. Why don't you move on to something else. Your expectations of how the test should be run are unrealistic. Ever installed a header while the engine was in the car? How long did it take you? Maybe you should be the one to do it if you are so good at it. Until then, STFU.
edited for grammar
edited for grammar
Last edited by domin8_gt; 09-10-2009 at 10:24 PM.
09-10-2009, 10:15 PM
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Omega, do me (us) a favor and post your results if you have them, especially if you can bounce that off what you had from a previous setup. Put your mods up as well.
09-10-2009, 10:47 PM
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Tyler,
I was under the impression the jbp header was tested in between the stock and vibrant setups? So If that were the case i would expect the vibrant to perform very poor as well. I think it (the results) were becuase of the poor build and design.
On the note about the testing a nice engine dyno would be ideal for accuracy and ease of use when changing headers, but again this is the real world and i think a chasis dyno speaks more to the public abroad becuase that's what everyone else uses (minus a very select few).
I was under the impression the jbp header was tested in between the stock and vibrant setups? So If that were the case i would expect the vibrant to perform very poor as well. I think it (the results) were becuase of the poor build and design.
On the note about the testing a nice engine dyno would be ideal for accuracy and ease of use when changing headers, but again this is the real world and i think a chasis dyno speaks more to the public abroad becuase that's what everyone else uses (minus a very select few).
09-11-2009, 12:07 AM
#633
Omega_5, why are destroying a thread many find informative? Isn't this grounds for Admin to slap you with the ban stick? As far as I see it, this is harrassment in its entirety. Why don't you move on to something else. Your expectations of how the test should be run are unrealistic. Ever installed a header while the engine was in the car? How long did it take you? Maybe you should be the one to do it if you are so good at it. Until then, STFU.
edited for grammar
edited for grammar
As for the jbp header, I remain undecided until I see convincing evidence for myself. I am convinced that they have sold more than a few "defective" headers that should have never been shipped out. Deathscythe, have you contacted them about the issues with your header? If so, what was their response?
09-11-2009, 02:49 PM
#634
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Check it out man. Just remember what you said as a response to what I posted giving everyone a background of what's happened since last August (2008). I don't know what bunk means, except maybe for a bed or a place to hide. And you said that I should admit the test was fucked. Tell me how that sounds to you. To me that sounds like a direct shot at me. As I said before, I would have been open to suggestion. And going through different headers in one day would have been very much impossible. I don't know how hard it was for you to get that header on, but it was about three hours for me.
The steering rack had to be loosened just to get the header back behind the block. The installation and removal time would have made things next to impossible as far as getting it all done in one day. Maybe you're right in saying that things should be left up to those who have more resources. But tell me what has gotten done on here waiting for "those people" to get things done. How many things can you remember were done on a massive scale like you're talking. I honestly don't know of any.
And if you want to say that something was wrong with my car, then it still leads back to the header being made in a poor manner. I don't know if you bothered to read what I posted before you decided to post on here, but I flat out said that the car was tuned every time a change to the powerplant was made. I didn't think the header could have wreaked that much havoc on my engine, but having to pull 12 degrees of timing total just to get it to work is ******* unacceptable..., I don't care what you say.
As far as my background, I am in the military. I deal with combat systems, namely dealing with the Aegis Weapon system: High scale air defense. I am a Fire Controlman, in control of the air defense picture, as well as the connections with undersea, surface, electronic, and strike warfare. I could wipe out all of my ship's defensive capabilities in a matter of 3 minutes, maybe less if I want to use a sledgehammer. My main strengths have to deal with networking warfare systems throughout my ship. My car is my hobby, and I have maintained that since I got on here. I am still learning about my car, and I'm glad that this happened to me. I get another chance to learn about the car that I love so much.
my main beef (i guess) resides in the point that I still have yet to see anything that shows gains from the header. I still have yet to see anything from you or rippin, or the other person you speak of. If you have something to show, then please do!
There was no misunderstanding, I just typed the wrong thing. I'll say again, if you have something to show, then by all means.
I have special plans for the car, and October 1 will be when things start. She will be fixed.
P.S.- what does 'snippy' mean?
The steering rack had to be loosened just to get the header back behind the block. The installation and removal time would have made things next to impossible as far as getting it all done in one day. Maybe you're right in saying that things should be left up to those who have more resources. But tell me what has gotten done on here waiting for "those people" to get things done. How many things can you remember were done on a massive scale like you're talking. I honestly don't know of any.
And if you want to say that something was wrong with my car, then it still leads back to the header being made in a poor manner. I don't know if you bothered to read what I posted before you decided to post on here, but I flat out said that the car was tuned every time a change to the powerplant was made. I didn't think the header could have wreaked that much havoc on my engine, but having to pull 12 degrees of timing total just to get it to work is ******* unacceptable..., I don't care what you say.
As far as my background, I am in the military. I deal with combat systems, namely dealing with the Aegis Weapon system: High scale air defense. I am a Fire Controlman, in control of the air defense picture, as well as the connections with undersea, surface, electronic, and strike warfare. I could wipe out all of my ship's defensive capabilities in a matter of 3 minutes, maybe less if I want to use a sledgehammer. My main strengths have to deal with networking warfare systems throughout my ship. My car is my hobby, and I have maintained that since I got on here. I am still learning about my car, and I'm glad that this happened to me. I get another chance to learn about the car that I love so much.
my main beef (i guess) resides in the point that I still have yet to see anything that shows gains from the header. I still have yet to see anything from you or rippin, or the other person you speak of. If you have something to show, then please do!
There was no misunderstanding, I just typed the wrong thing. I'll say again, if you have something to show, then by all means.
I have special plans for the car, and October 1 will be when things start. She will be fixed.
P.S.- what does 'snippy' mean?
About the header install... it was about 2 hours here... but I have a bit of an advantage of having access to a full automotive fab shop. Sure, it's difficult to do... but there are other ways of controlling the testing... it doesn't have to be one day... do it over a weekend or something. The big part is that all the tests are done back to back (as much as possible) to avoid any affecting variables.
Furthermore, many of us JBP owners did mention in the RLF thread that it looks like there was a fab flaw in the header. I can fully understand that that is probably the reason why your test resulted the way it did. The only two pieces of advice I can give is; 1) call JBP and tell them what happened. In a high profile test like this, they are sure to correct the issue. And, 2) stop 'bashing' the entire line up of JBP headers based on one with a fab flaw. As we have said before, many of us have this header and are not experiencing the issues you are. Saying that the design is junk because of one that was built shitty is not the way to do it.
With respect to our results... I personally don't keep data. I could post some logs... but I doubt that would help much. I guess I could repeat a dyno sometime this fall, when I get into S'toon on a weekday.
But as mentioned on RLF, Rippin said he would post up his results next week (this weekend is too busy for him... give him congrats when he gets back
).As far as your listing of your qualifications... props for doing so. Many people here don't have the ***** to admit they are still learning about mechanics.... god knows I still learn stuff everyday.
As well, see what Watts said about my lingo... he get's Canadeh speak...
Omega_5, why are destroying a thread many find informative? Isn't this grounds for Admin to slap you with the ban stick? As far as I see it, this is harrassment in its entirety. Why don't you move on to something else. Your expectations of how the test should be run are unrealistic. Ever installed a header while the engine was in the car? How long did it take you? Maybe you should be the one to do it if you are so good at it. Until then, STFU.
Take this test to anyone in the professional community, and they would shake their head. Now I can't hold it again DS himself, as he is an amateur enthusiast working with what he has. But with that said, an amateur enthusiast should be able to admit when a test has downfalls.
As far as your ranting with respect to the header install... I have installed many headers on an LSJ in a delta chassis.... sure it's a pain in the ass. In case you missed it, there are other ways of performing this test (as Sean pick up on).
Tyler,
I was under the impression the jbp header was tested in between the stock and vibrant setups? So If that were the case i would expect the vibrant to perform very poor as well. I think it (the results) were becuase of the poor build and design.
On the note about the testing a nice engine dyno would be ideal for accuracy and ease of use when changing headers, but again this is the real world and i think a chasis dyno speaks more to the public abroad becuase that's what everyone else uses (minus a very select few).
I was under the impression the jbp header was tested in between the stock and vibrant setups? So If that were the case i would expect the vibrant to perform very poor as well. I think it (the results) were becuase of the poor build and design.
On the note about the testing a nice engine dyno would be ideal for accuracy and ease of use when changing headers, but again this is the real world and i think a chasis dyno speaks more to the public abroad becuase that's what everyone else uses (minus a very select few).
If you needed to add timing to match the power output on the stock manifold... something is up.
But as you mentioned, the build was poor on this particular piece, which probably caused the 'extra' low results.
As previously stated, all tests should be redone, with the properly built header, in the most controlled test possible (over a day, weekend, whatever... but it's back to back).
I think he means, bunk= other variables had affects on results, and snippy= snappy or snooty? IDK, kooky canucks! LOL
I really don't think he's trying to destroy anything, just has a different view than yourself, but that's not reason for ban. One great scientist said "never stop questioning" and that is what Deathscythe is doing here as well, and I give him credit for his hard work! It is not easy to do truly accurate and fair testing, as is being learned here the hard way. Don't give up, correct and revise any flaws.
As for the jbp header, I remain undecided until I see convincing evidence for myself. I am convinced that they have sold more than a few "defective" headers that should have never been shipped out. Deathscythe, have you contacted them about the issues with your header? If so, what was their response?
I really don't think he's trying to destroy anything, just has a different view than yourself, but that's not reason for ban. One great scientist said "never stop questioning" and that is what Deathscythe is doing here as well, and I give him credit for his hard work! It is not easy to do truly accurate and fair testing, as is being learned here the hard way. Don't give up, correct and revise any flaws.
As for the jbp header, I remain undecided until I see convincing evidence for myself. I am convinced that they have sold more than a few "defective" headers that should have never been shipped out. Deathscythe, have you contacted them about the issues with your header? If so, what was their response?
Watts... you awesome, man!
09-11-2009, 06:48 PM
#635
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Agreeing to disagree..., how two gentlemen have a conversation. I think you would agree that the way things are read over the interwebz can change the context of which something was meant. I would have liked to do things in the way that you have leaned toward, but there are some obstacles I had to find a way to get around two problems.
1. The headers- It's true that I had 5 of them, but there were others that I felt should be included. But since I didn't have them, I had to think of a way to get them from other members on here. I put it out that I'd do a swap, because many of us have the cobalt as a dd. Asking people to loan me their header is both selfish and unreasonable.
2. Temperature- Because of not having the opportunity to stock almost 10 headers, having the testing done during the summer actually made sense. In July and August here, the temperature rarely dips below 90*, and the humidity is almost always high. These would prove to be unfavorable conditions for the engine, but the weather would be consistent. Also, I would post the numbers in sae, which would accomodate for changes in weather, baro, humidity, and so on.
3. Performance Shop- It's kind of hard to ask someone to let me use their shop for one whole day when you've met them for the first time. I've since gained his trust from going to his shop so many times, but in the beginning, I just didn't have that luxury.
Actually, all three headers were dynoed off of the same tune. the stock one did 311, and the vibrant 302. I even ran the jbp header on the same generic tune, with the knock it was producing. The second time I went, that's when the timing was added. And only two degrees if I recall correctly. But it's in here. The stock header was run with a catless 3" dp, as to the vibrant which is 2.5 all the way through. That's why I was pretty satisfied with the results.
i've tried the political path, with no real result. That's why I get the feeling that they don't care. Fair is fair though, so I'll try again. Thanks to your inputs though, next year, I will do things differently. I do listen to opinions that have merit to them. And I don't need to check your cred, remember I've been waiting on that setup of yours
I hope you understand better that I took those same variables into account.
1. The headers- It's true that I had 5 of them, but there were others that I felt should be included. But since I didn't have them, I had to think of a way to get them from other members on here. I put it out that I'd do a swap, because many of us have the cobalt as a dd. Asking people to loan me their header is both selfish and unreasonable.
2. Temperature- Because of not having the opportunity to stock almost 10 headers, having the testing done during the summer actually made sense. In July and August here, the temperature rarely dips below 90*, and the humidity is almost always high. These would prove to be unfavorable conditions for the engine, but the weather would be consistent. Also, I would post the numbers in sae, which would accomodate for changes in weather, baro, humidity, and so on.
3. Performance Shop- It's kind of hard to ask someone to let me use their shop for one whole day when you've met them for the first time. I've since gained his trust from going to his shop so many times, but in the beginning, I just didn't have that luxury.
Actually, all three headers were dynoed off of the same tune. the stock one did 311, and the vibrant 302. I even ran the jbp header on the same generic tune, with the knock it was producing. The second time I went, that's when the timing was added. And only two degrees if I recall correctly. But it's in here. The stock header was run with a catless 3" dp, as to the vibrant which is 2.5 all the way through. That's why I was pretty satisfied with the results.
i've tried the political path, with no real result. That's why I get the feeling that they don't care. Fair is fair though, so I'll try again. Thanks to your inputs though, next year, I will do things differently. I do listen to opinions that have merit to them. And I don't need to check your cred, remember I've been waiting on that setup of yours
I hope you understand better that I took those same variables into account.
09-12-2009, 09:17 AM
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Tyler,
I was under the impression the jbp header was tested in between the stock and vibrant setups? So If that were the case i would expect the vibrant to perform very poor as well. I think it (the results) were becuase of the poor build and design.
On the note about the testing a nice engine dyno would be ideal for accuracy and ease of use when changing headers, but again this is the real world and i think a chasis dyno speaks more to the public abroad becuase that's what everyone else uses (minus a very select few).
I was under the impression the jbp header was tested in between the stock and vibrant setups? So If that were the case i would expect the vibrant to perform very poor as well. I think it (the results) were becuase of the poor build and design.
On the note about the testing a nice engine dyno would be ideal for accuracy and ease of use when changing headers, but again this is the real world and i think a chasis dyno speaks more to the public abroad becuase that's what everyone else uses (minus a very select few).
09-12-2009, 09:52 AM
#639
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I believe they are just making parts that are needed for our platform. They made the intake since there are only one or two on the market. One of them (R.A.W)l, I'm not even sure if they make intakes anymore. They're trying to get cams to the market since we really don't have many options.
