I'm looking for someone who has used HPTuners to modify the production ECM to burn CNG. We are trying to modify the 2.0 engine to power a standby generator using low-pressure, pipeline, natural gas.

Comments welcome!

 

supercharged generator? Whats the advantage over just a regular NA engine?

 

CNG? isint that natural gas

 

Very interesting, why did you choose this engine for that app? Where in FL are you?

 

uh huh...I know there are a few people who have tuned for E85. Not sure, other than stoich being different what you would be able to/have to change for CNG.

 

Far superior torque at lower rpms is one, which helps with wear and tear and noise, also lets you run a much smaller engine displacement wise to generate the same amount of power.

 

compressed natural gas. I thought that was different than when comes as a house utlitity?

 

no clue, I know very little about the subject

 

there is a guy with a morgan who autocrosses and it runs off of propane/cng..?? ....very clean motor (internal)

 

ANSWERS:

I'm in Clearwater, Florida

Standby electric generators powered by natural gas engines use pipeline NG. Cars use CNG - compressed natural gas that is stored in tanks.

Why natural gas?
1) They never turn off the gas! It is the only fuel available on demand. So you never run out of fuel: nice to have in an emergency
2) NG is the cleanest fossil fuel
3) The diesel-gallon-equivalent price for NG today is about $1.92
4) NG is delivered under pressure so it never contaiminated. No odor. No spills.
5) NG is lighter than air. Outdoors it will never explode because it will dissipate before you can get a spark to it. On the other hand, LPG is heavier than air and will run along the ground til it finds a spark.
6) NG burns clean. You can run a generator for days and days and the oil will remain clean. Because the engine is so clean, it is more reliable and is always performing at top efficiency
7) Unlike diesel fuel and gasoline, NG does not degrade over time
8) For diesel or gasoline engines, you have to buy fuel before you need it, and store it in expensive tanks where it will immediately start to degrade. Plus, there is tank maintenance to consider.
9) But the best thing is that 85% of the NG consummed in the U.S. is produced here and 14% more comes from Canada.

I will be happy to explain why we're using the LSJ engine, if you're interested.

 

Interesting

 

Please do.

 

how big of a generator are you running with it??? our race car trailer has a 7000watt generator thats powered by a small 3 cyl deisel.

 

How do you intend to modulate the fuel?

 

wouldnt propane be a much better alternative? allot of las vegas cabs and busses run on it and even though it is a little more money, takes half the energy to use and produces twice the energy of natural gas. (i could be a little off as i dont kno toooooo much about compressed natural gas, im assuming there very similar)

 

INFO ABOUT THE GENERATOR:

Conventional, “whole-house”, standby generators are rated at about 20kW (20,000-watts). Because these field-wound generators must run constantly at 1800 rpm in order to maintain 60 Hertz, they require an engine that has a displacement of four-to-five liters. That’s because a typical diesel engine able to produce 225 hp at 3600 rpm is lucky to come up with 100 hp at 1800 rpm. This is the big problem with fixed-speed generators.
We have developed a variable-speed, constant-frequency generator that will be capable of producing 50 kW (50,000-watts) using the LSJ engine. This is an unheard of amount of power to be generated by a 2.0 L engine.
The secret is variable speed. Instead of running constantly, our generator responses to actual demand. Starting large induction motors, like those used for pool pumps, A/C or refrigeration, requires three-to-four times the running load. Although this transient load lasts only a few seconds, a fixed-speed generator, nonetheless, must be sized for the maximum load. For our generator, the solution is simply to accelerate for a few moments. And because the engine is spark-ignited, the response is instantaneous so there is no voltage droop.
Imagine the inefficiency and wear on an engine that has to run constantly regardless of the load.
Imagine the additional cost, size, and fuel consumption of an engine that is three-to-four times what it needs to be.
The modifications we plan to make to the LSJ are to increase the compression ratio from 9.1:1 to 13.5:1. Compared to pipeline natural gas, gasoline is a Molotoff cocktail whereas NG is a balloon filled with doggie breath.
Because of the emission-reduction benefits alone, it’s understandable why GM quickly chose to switch to a turbo-charger instead of a super-charger for this gasoline-fueled, engine. However, it is perfect for us and there will be many applications for it in the future as the number of alternative-fuel projects increase.
We likely will use an electronic carburetor instead of fuel injection as it is it easier to insure a uniform fuel charge to all the cylinders.
As for engine controls, we are going to start with the production ECM, and modify it as needed. This is where I started this thread, looking for someone who perhaps has had experience using compressed natural gas with the LSJ engine.

REGARDING CNG (compressed natural gas) and LPG / PROPANE:
For those who missed it, our application is to use the LSJ engine to power stationary, standby emergency generators using pipeline natural gas. Our project is to modify the LSJ to lean-burn pipeline NG regardless of the speed or load. The four major advantages of pipeline gas are:

1) They NEVER turn off the natural gas. It is the only fuel that is available on-demand, 24/7.
2) It is delivered safely underground directly to the site. There are no tanks to BUY, INSTALL, or MAINTAIN.
3) It is half the price of diesel fuel.
4) America has plenty of it.

 

interesting. thats a cool project. im not sure if many people can help as i thing your the first person to convert the lsj to CNG. gm did make CNG powered cavaliers with ecotecs in them. adapting the pcm from one would be next to impossible though as they are the 2.2l and use a 7x crank unlike the 58x in the lsj.

another thought for fuel injection would be to check out a megasquirt. its a cheap DIY stand alone, it costs as little as $250 for the ecm. i had my old cavalier (2.8l v6) running off one, and also have a turbocharged 2.2l swapped into a sunbird running one. they work quite well, and support is user based, and there are a lot of people that do weird things with them. im sure someone there has experiance with cng fi. may be worth checking out. www.msefi.com

keep us updated with this, its got my interest.

 

Cool, so you've got a way to maintain the freq to allow a variable rpm?

CNG works quite well save the reduced BTU and relatively low psi at the residential pipe.. will you be able to suck that much HP out of that low of psi?

 

How do you intend to distribute the gas?

Here we have lot's of cars with LPG. (Liquified Petroleum Gas. Stored in special tanks as a liquid under 6-8 bar pressure if I remember correctly.) The newest cars run an injection system where the gas is directly injected as liquid in the manifold, but the older systems use a vapourizer/distributor. With this, the liquified gas is first heated up & vapourized. The gas supply is regulated with the vacuum and fed into the motor. I think you need to use such kind of LPG distributor for your natural gas conversion. Just look for one which is suitable for overpressure (turbo/SC systems).

Fool the ECU with some resistors for the non-existent injectors and you can make this work... (But in my opinion it will be much easier with a more simple, non ecu controlled engine. => Ditch the ECU or use HP tuners to switch everything off. )

 

ANSWERS:

The way we maintain constant frequency is by using power conversion electronics to regenerate pure sine-power, regardless of engine speed.

It is true that gasoline has 22% more energy than a comparable amount of natural gas mainly because it has lower density. That is why we need a super-charger.

However, natural gas has a 130-octane rating whereas gasoline is between 87-to-96. High octane fuels allow for a higher compression ratio (ours will be 13.5:1 ). This means less space in the cylinders on the combustion stroke and hotter cylinder temperatures which produce higher power levels coupled with less pollution overall because of the greater efficiency.

 

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUGGESTIONS. I contacted Matt Cramer at DIYAutotune.com. They are dealers for the MegaSquirt line. He asked me some questions about the LSJ engine that I don't know.

CAN YOU HELP?

1) What type of ignition system does your car run- where is the crank angle sensor (CAS) or distributor trigger wheel and what type is it (Optical/LED Sensor? Hall Sensor? VR Sensor?)

2) How many teeth/windows/slots and what orientation does the CAS, crank trigger, and/or distributor wheel have? (any missing? all evenly spaced?)

3) Does this engine have a fast idle valve (IAC)? If so, how many wires are connected to it? Do you know if it is an on/off, pulse width modulated, thermal, or stepper type?

4) Is there a distributor?

IF YOU COULD HELP ME WITH ANY OF THESE FOUR QUESTIONS, I WOULD BE VERY GRATEFUL.

 

CNG loves boost and high compression. Unlike gasoline, it's very resistant to detonation.

Yes. Compressed natural gas.
And to answer Zinner's other question.... it's the same as a house utility, only that it's stored at high pressures in a compressed cylinder.


As far as the OP's question.... the problem is that we lack a bit of the tuning ability to deal with CNG. Although, you can change the stoich values, and totally re-map the entire ECU.
I personally have not converted an LSJ to CNG... but have converted many other motors over to CNG.
I highly suggest getting in contact with a few of the major suppliers of CNG equipment, such as ECO Fuel Systems in Langley, British Columbia. http://www.ecofuel.com/
They can put you on the right track as far as additional parts.
If you have any other questions about the conversion process, feel free to PM me.