Stage 2 problem - low hp
10-30-2008, 12:10 AM
#26
Banned
Thread Starter
exactly...how dumb are people. Obviously if i say custom tune im not running gm tune or w/e. Its a custom tune. You people do know you can buy the parts and make your own stage 2 and have a tune that is not supplied from gm right? but anyways the issue is not the tune, heat soak is not the issue because we brought the timing down to 11* and no knock and same results. A/F Ratio is 11.5 - 11.8. The boost gauge holds steady at 120kpa which is 17.5psi and does not fall during dyno testing. The mechanic thats working on my car has tuned/dynoed another car (not a cobalt) had the same problem...got to a certain rpm and the power nose dived, he ended up changing his exhaust and then re-dynoed....car was perfect so thats why we think it might be the exhaust. But i dont think it is. People are saying clogged cat...i resently had my full exhaust, including the cat replaced by the dealership 2 weeks ago. So i highly doubt its clogged already.
So to ask my question once again....can the belt slipping at 5700rpm cause this nose dive in power. Because its not the tune...tune is perfect and we tried everything possible, total of 8 hours of tuning and possibly another 3 hours tomorrow. So are 100% its not the tune.
Also to the 2 children arguing in my thread take it to pm's. If you dont have good advice or have anything to say about my post...get the hell out now.
Either way the car runs amazing...a hell of alot of more power then before. Would just like to see its full potental. And to the people that are asking for info...incase you didnt bother reading my first post. I am running 2.8 ZZP Pulley, 60lb Injectors on a CUSTOM TUNE.....NOT GM OR ANY OTHER COMPANY. As for the belt thats on the car its suppose to be "GM Stage 2 Belt" Which is suppose to be shorter...well i think Cobalt Addiction fucked up cuz its pretty much the same size as stock and my friend said it was alot easier then his to get on the pulley. Other mods are in my signature.
10-30-2008, 12:13 AM
#27
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exactly...how dumb are people. Obviously if i say custom tune im not running gm tune or w/e. Its a custom tune. You people do know you can buy the parts and make your own stage 2 and have a tune that is not supplied from gm right? but anyways the issue is not the tune, heat soak is not the issue because we brought the timing down to 11* and no knock and same results. A/F Ratio is 11.5 - 11.8. The mechanic thats working on my car has tuned/dynoed another car (not a cobalt) had the same problem...got to a certain rpm and the power nose dived, he ended up changing his exhaust and then re-dynoed....car was perfect so thats why we think it might be the exhaust. But i dont think it is.
So to ask my question once again....can the belt slipping at 5700rpm cause this nose dive in power. Because its not the tune...tune is perfect and we tried everything possible, total of 8 hours of tuning and possibly another 3 hours tomorrow. So are 100% its not the tune.
So to ask my question once again....can the belt slipping at 5700rpm cause this nose dive in power. Because its not the tune...tune is perfect and we tried everything possible, total of 8 hours of tuning and possibly another 3 hours tomorrow. So are 100% its not the tune.
those dynos are borderline stock. When i tried to use the 2.8 with a stock belt i could slide the belt around the 2.8 no problem. Hence why i went to the s2 belt. Can i see the tune file/log?
10-30-2008, 12:29 AM
#28
Banned
Thread Starter
we dropped the timing down to see if that was the problem, we did start at stock which is 18* and once again, no knock. But like i said, we tried everything with the tune, even dropping it, no knock but same problem. We tried making the A/F dead on 14.7...even tried a little lean and a little rich...same problem so we know its not the tune. I dont have the tune/file on me...ill see if i can get the shop to load it on a cd or something for me. The belt isnt sliding around by just me pushing it with my finger or anything but like i said multiple times...me and my friend noticed it looked pretty much the same size...anyone know the specs on the sizes of the 2 belts? whats the size difference?
10-30-2008, 12:51 AM
#29
1. that dyno is NOT representative of belt slip.
2. if your tuner ran your car on the dyno with a 14.7 afr, he's either retarded, or drunk at the wheel.
3. a 2.8" pulley with no exhaust mods or cooling mods WILL heatsoak quickly, especially on a dyno
my theory is that the ecu is pulling back boost and timing because of the high IAT2 temps.
put the timing back to stock unless you are getting knock. if you are getting what you said for AFR, that is decent. 11.5 is where you wanna be.
2. if your tuner ran your car on the dyno with a 14.7 afr, he's either retarded, or drunk at the wheel.
3. a 2.8" pulley with no exhaust mods or cooling mods WILL heatsoak quickly, especially on a dyno
my theory is that the ecu is pulling back boost and timing because of the high IAT2 temps.
put the timing back to stock unless you are getting knock. if you are getting what you said for AFR, that is decent. 11.5 is where you wanna be.
10-30-2008, 09:24 AM
#30
Banned
Thread Starter
Well this is from the guy thats been working on my car at his shop.....
"Now lets talk about the car. When we first started fuel was a little rich (not too bad as I bumped up the upper half of the MAF table to be safe on the first pull). When we were done fuel was good staying between 11.4 and 11.8 for the whole pull, even after it nose dived in the graph fuel was good Also the car is not running 18 degrees of timing up top, that is what it was set to from the factory. That much timing did show a little bit of knock up top so I pulled some out. The car now is running about 14.5 degrees uo top and no knock anywhere in the pull with the exception of some burst knock when he first floors it which is completely normal and recovers to 0 immediately. I tried pulling a lot of timing up top (running 11 degrees) but no matter what I did that drop on the graph repeated itself time after time. One of the reasons I think the exhaust is causing the problem. Personally I think that the exhaust just can't flow enough at that RPM with the smaller pulley hence the drastic drop in the graph.
I tuned a 98 Prelude last week that I put a fully built hi compression H22 in and we were getting sort of the same results. The car would make great power up to 7000rpm and then nose dive. The great thing with this setup is that it was in another car last year and we have all the Dyno graphs from last year and the other car it was in. When we overlayed the graph from last year with the new graphs from the new car it was a mirror image right up to 7000rpm (actually we got on average 5-7whp more than last year right up to 7000rpm). Now the only differences in the two setups are the exhaust, the first setup had 2 3/4" exhaust, not cat or res. The new setup has 2 1/4" exhaust, a cat and a res.
The only reason I said it could be the plugs is because they are ZEX, no offense to anyone who runs them but I have not seen many people have very good luck with them. Some swear by them and others say they are junk, who knows. I would like to run an NGK plug in it just to make sure. Also the plugs did look to be in poor condition. Now you would think that you would see a jumpy graph and air/fuel should of went rich if they were not firing but that didn't happen. But who knows, for the sake of a few bucks it would be a good idea to put new plugs in it anyway.
Again IMO it's the exhaust that is causing the issues here. I tried quite a few things in the tune to fix it and no matter what I did it was a mirror image everytime. If it was a timing or fuel issue then the graph should of changed some what with different changes, but there was no change no matter what I did. For the graph to take a dive like that so drastically at the same point every time means that there is something going very wrong. Mostly likely something physical with the setup that is being run. I know that back when I ran the M90 supercharger that the exhaust needed to be first on the list of things to be done to allow the blower to push that much air. Running a 3.4" pulley (stock is 3.8") on an M90 with stock exhaust is not recommended at all because the exhaust can't take it, people have actually blown them up this way. I am thinking we are running into the same situation here"
"Now lets talk about the car. When we first started fuel was a little rich (not too bad as I bumped up the upper half of the MAF table to be safe on the first pull). When we were done fuel was good staying between 11.4 and 11.8 for the whole pull, even after it nose dived in the graph fuel was good Also the car is not running 18 degrees of timing up top, that is what it was set to from the factory. That much timing did show a little bit of knock up top so I pulled some out. The car now is running about 14.5 degrees uo top and no knock anywhere in the pull with the exception of some burst knock when he first floors it which is completely normal and recovers to 0 immediately. I tried pulling a lot of timing up top (running 11 degrees) but no matter what I did that drop on the graph repeated itself time after time. One of the reasons I think the exhaust is causing the problem. Personally I think that the exhaust just can't flow enough at that RPM with the smaller pulley hence the drastic drop in the graph.
I tuned a 98 Prelude last week that I put a fully built hi compression H22 in and we were getting sort of the same results. The car would make great power up to 7000rpm and then nose dive. The great thing with this setup is that it was in another car last year and we have all the Dyno graphs from last year and the other car it was in. When we overlayed the graph from last year with the new graphs from the new car it was a mirror image right up to 7000rpm (actually we got on average 5-7whp more than last year right up to 7000rpm). Now the only differences in the two setups are the exhaust, the first setup had 2 3/4" exhaust, not cat or res. The new setup has 2 1/4" exhaust, a cat and a res.
The only reason I said it could be the plugs is because they are ZEX, no offense to anyone who runs them but I have not seen many people have very good luck with them. Some swear by them and others say they are junk, who knows. I would like to run an NGK plug in it just to make sure. Also the plugs did look to be in poor condition. Now you would think that you would see a jumpy graph and air/fuel should of went rich if they were not firing but that didn't happen. But who knows, for the sake of a few bucks it would be a good idea to put new plugs in it anyway.
Again IMO it's the exhaust that is causing the issues here. I tried quite a few things in the tune to fix it and no matter what I did it was a mirror image everytime. If it was a timing or fuel issue then the graph should of changed some what with different changes, but there was no change no matter what I did. For the graph to take a dive like that so drastically at the same point every time means that there is something going very wrong. Mostly likely something physical with the setup that is being run. I know that back when I ran the M90 supercharger that the exhaust needed to be first on the list of things to be done to allow the blower to push that much air. Running a 3.4" pulley (stock is 3.8") on an M90 with stock exhaust is not recommended at all because the exhaust can't take it, people have actually blown them up this way. I am thinking we are running into the same situation here"
10-30-2008, 10:13 AM
#31
Senior Member
you sound about as dumb as this tuner of yours.
there are TONS of cars running a set up thats as aggressive as your, or more so on a stock, or close to, exhasut.
i'll use a personal example.
local guy, and friend of mine.
2.7, 60's, CAI, ect, ect. on my tune. STOCK EXHAUST
the car pulls just peachy all the way to redline, 27X whp pull, after pull, after pull.
another note, the stock car DOES NOT command 18deg of spark off the tables, after a few of the adders are mixed in it can ALMOST reach that, but not quite.
now if this tuner of yours knows his way around a GM car the least bit, he'd the know the 2nd thing you do on a GM pcm is pull out the AIT and ECT spark adders and multipliers as they are know to be a totall pain in the dick once you start tuning.
dropping the timeing down to an OEM 14deg will NOT cool the motor down the least bit.
less timeing = higher EGT's = higher port and vlave temps = higher cylinder head temps.
its truly that simple.
i can assure you here i know my way around this car, and the tuning side of this car far better then your self.
so i ask once again,
what belt are you using.
what injectors are you using.
what pulley are you using.
what tune are you using.
answer these and i can give you an answer.
another factoid, depent on what year and what OS your PCM has, that 5700 rpm range is where a dynamic air flow filter is set, watch that mess with your fueling calculations.
also, did you or the tuner bother to disable the torque management or boost control?
i'd bet not!
answers the questions, and I'll have you an answer.
there are TONS of cars running a set up thats as aggressive as your, or more so on a stock, or close to, exhasut.
i'll use a personal example.
local guy, and friend of mine.
2.7, 60's, CAI, ect, ect. on my tune. STOCK EXHAUST
the car pulls just peachy all the way to redline, 27X whp pull, after pull, after pull.
another note, the stock car DOES NOT command 18deg of spark off the tables, after a few of the adders are mixed in it can ALMOST reach that, but not quite.
now if this tuner of yours knows his way around a GM car the least bit, he'd the know the 2nd thing you do on a GM pcm is pull out the AIT and ECT spark adders and multipliers as they are know to be a totall pain in the dick once you start tuning.
dropping the timeing down to an OEM 14deg will NOT cool the motor down the least bit.
less timeing = higher EGT's = higher port and vlave temps = higher cylinder head temps.
its truly that simple.
i can assure you here i know my way around this car, and the tuning side of this car far better then your self.
so i ask once again,
what belt are you using.
what injectors are you using.
what pulley are you using.
what tune are you using.
answer these and i can give you an answer.
another factoid, depent on what year and what OS your PCM has, that 5700 rpm range is where a dynamic air flow filter is set, watch that mess with your fueling calculations.
also, did you or the tuner bother to disable the torque management or boost control?
i'd bet not!
answers the questions, and I'll have you an answer.
10-30-2008, 11:42 AM
#32
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you sound about as dumb as this tuner of yours.
there are TONS of cars running a set up thats as aggressive as your, or more so on a stock, or close to, exhasut.
i'll use a personal example.
local guy, and friend of mine.
2.7, 60's, CAI, ect, ect. on my tune. STOCK EXHAUST
the car pulls just peachy all the way to redline, 27X whp pull, after pull, after pull.
another note, the stock car DOES NOT command 18deg of spark off the tables, after a few of the adders are mixed in it can ALMOST reach that, but not quite.
now if this tuner of yours knows his way around a GM car the least bit, he'd the know the 2nd thing you do on a GM pcm is pull out the AIT and ECT spark adders and multipliers as they are know to be a totall pain in the dick once you start tuning.
dropping the timeing down to an OEM 14deg will NOT cool the motor down the least bit.
less timeing = higher EGT's = higher port and vlave temps = higher cylinder head temps.
its truly that simple.
i can assure you here i know my way around this car, and the tuning side of this car far better then your self.
so i ask once again,
what belt are you using.
what injectors are you using.
what pulley are you using.
what tune are you using.
answer these and i can give you an answer.
another factoid, depent on what year and what OS your PCM has, that 5700 rpm range is where a dynamic air flow filter is set, watch that mess with your fueling calculations.
also, did you or the tuner bother to disable the torque management or boost control?
i'd bet not!
answers the questions, and I'll have you an answer.
there are TONS of cars running a set up thats as aggressive as your, or more so on a stock, or close to, exhasut.
i'll use a personal example.
local guy, and friend of mine.
2.7, 60's, CAI, ect, ect. on my tune. STOCK EXHAUST
the car pulls just peachy all the way to redline, 27X whp pull, after pull, after pull.
another note, the stock car DOES NOT command 18deg of spark off the tables, after a few of the adders are mixed in it can ALMOST reach that, but not quite.
now if this tuner of yours knows his way around a GM car the least bit, he'd the know the 2nd thing you do on a GM pcm is pull out the AIT and ECT spark adders and multipliers as they are know to be a totall pain in the dick once you start tuning.
dropping the timeing down to an OEM 14deg will NOT cool the motor down the least bit.
less timeing = higher EGT's = higher port and vlave temps = higher cylinder head temps.
its truly that simple.
i can assure you here i know my way around this car, and the tuning side of this car far better then your self.
so i ask once again,
what belt are you using.
what injectors are you using.
what pulley are you using.
what tune are you using.
answer these and i can give you an answer.
another factoid, depent on what year and what OS your PCM has, that 5700 rpm range is where a dynamic air flow filter is set, watch that mess with your fueling calculations.
also, did you or the tuner bother to disable the torque management or boost control?
i'd bet not!
answers the questions, and I'll have you an answer.
I have been at this for over 5 years now...long before HPTuners or the Cobalt was even out. Now with that said after reviewing some things I do think it might be a boost control or Torque Management setting that is kicking in. I will get it straightened out tonight we we get back at it. I am not going to answer all of your questions because I do know what I am doing and I would rather not entertain an ignorant ******* like yourself. I have tuned 3800's, 2.2 eco's, 2.4 eco, 2.0 ss eco, LS1 2 and 3's along with all the OBD1 honda bullshit so as far as I am concerned I have a good grasp of what is going on. Responses like yours really **** me off, your the type of person who knows it all right? Instead of adding good info to the post you preach why you are right and everyone else is wrong.
AGAIN, GO **** YOURSELF!
10-30-2008, 12:02 PM
#33
YOU CAN GO **** YOURSELF...HOW MANY CARS HAVE YOU TUNED *******!
I have been at this for over 5 years now...long before HPTuners or the Cobalt was even out. Now with that said after reviewing some things I do think it might be a boost control or Torque Management setting that is kicking in. I will get it straightened out tonight we we get back at it. I am not going to answer all of your questions because I do know what I am doing and I would rather not entertain an ignorant ******* like yourself. I have tuned 3800's, 2.2 eco's, 2.4 eco, 2.0 ss eco, LS1 2 and 3's along with all the OBD1 honda bullshit so as far as I am concerned I have a good grasp of what is going on. Responses like yours really **** me off, your the type of person who knows it all right? Instead of adding good info to the post you preach why you are right and everyone else is wrong.
AGAIN, GO **** YOURSELF!
I have been at this for over 5 years now...long before HPTuners or the Cobalt was even out. Now with that said after reviewing some things I do think it might be a boost control or Torque Management setting that is kicking in. I will get it straightened out tonight we we get back at it. I am not going to answer all of your questions because I do know what I am doing and I would rather not entertain an ignorant ******* like yourself. I have tuned 3800's, 2.2 eco's, 2.4 eco, 2.0 ss eco, LS1 2 and 3's along with all the OBD1 honda bullshit so as far as I am concerned I have a good grasp of what is going on. Responses like yours really **** me off, your the type of person who knows it all right? Instead of adding good info to the post you preach why you are right and everyone else is wrong.
AGAIN, GO **** YOURSELF!
his is far from ignorant and you just made yourself look VERY ignorant... i dont care what you've tuned... you look VERY stupid right now... why not answer the questions unless you dont know what you're doing/ cant answer the,
not to mention if it's TM kicking ing or boost control .. IT"S THE TUNE.. and that is something thats super easily fixable and should've been noticeable right away to a good tuner..
not to mention i've seen tuners with 15 years experience **** **** up ... admitting your mistake and being able to fix it is part of being a good tuner
10-30-2008, 12:46 PM
#35
Senior Member
YOU CAN GO **** YOURSELF...HOW MANY CARS HAVE YOU TUNED *******!
I have been at this for over 5 years now...long before HPTuners or the Cobalt was even out. Now with that said after reviewing some things I do think it might be a boost control or Torque Management setting that is kicking in. I will get it straightened out tonight we we get back at it. I am not going to answer all of your questions because I do know what I am doing and I would rather not entertain an ignorant ******* like yourself. I have tuned 3800's, 2.2 eco's, 2.4 eco, 2.0 ss eco, LS1 2 and 3's along with all the OBD1 honda bullshit so as far as I am concerned I have a good grasp of what is going on. Responses like yours really **** me off, your the type of person who knows it all right? Instead of adding good info to the post you preach why you are right and everyone else is wrong.
AGAIN, GO **** YOURSELF!
I have been at this for over 5 years now...long before HPTuners or the Cobalt was even out. Now with that said after reviewing some things I do think it might be a boost control or Torque Management setting that is kicking in. I will get it straightened out tonight we we get back at it. I am not going to answer all of your questions because I do know what I am doing and I would rather not entertain an ignorant ******* like yourself. I have tuned 3800's, 2.2 eco's, 2.4 eco, 2.0 ss eco, LS1 2 and 3's along with all the OBD1 honda bullshit so as far as I am concerned I have a good grasp of what is going on. Responses like yours really **** me off, your the type of person who knows it all right? Instead of adding good info to the post you preach why you are right and everyone else is wrong.
AGAIN, GO **** YOURSELF!
congrats! you just proved my point. you have VARY little grasp of what your doing.
I've tuned just about every thing with a GM badge on it, along with multiple fords, and Chrysler's as well as just about every after market management system.
more then what can be said for yourself here.
i think you just got a little pissy when I POINTED OUT the simple fact that you dident remove the boost cut thats set at 16psi.
its not that big of a deal, i see it done all the time.
i sure as **** would not have come back at you with at "AHAHHAHA OMG OMG U JACKASS" i would have simply been happy to point out the issue. then you fix it, and move on.
if the questions i asked would have been answered in a logical manor, i could have pointed out that the fault lies in the tune quicker and we could have been done with this.
enjoy looking like an ignorant ****, i'll take the simple pleasure in the fact that i was correct and your just to hung up on your false pride to admit it.
to the OP, i'd get as far away from this tuner as i can.
a man with a laptop, false pride, and incorrect knowledge can destroy a car in a hurry.
10-30-2008, 12:57 PM
#36
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yeah you guys are right I probably should not have reacted that way but to be honest I didn't like the replies from some who question my ability. I have done lots of tuning on all types of vehicles over the years. Most fourms have lots of users who read something and then think they know everything under the sun. I am not beyond making mistakes, everyone does, it's part of the learning process but when you read some of the replies made by some it gets under your skin thats for sure. Again I apologize for my comments but at the same time I would not of reacted that way if I didn't read the ignorant comments in the first place. End of debate!
This is some way to start off a post tying to help someone out. You talk of ignorance but you spew it in your first sentence! This is what really pissed me off and to be honest I didn't even read your reply after that, why would I?
and he doesn't know me either...it's a two way street man. I would never of reacted that way if I had not read the first ignorant sentance in his post.
This is some way to start off a post tying to help someone out. You talk of ignorance but you spew it in your first sentence! This is what really pissed me off and to be honest I didn't even read your reply after that, why would I?
and he doesn't know me either...it's a two way street man. I would never of reacted that way if I had not read the first ignorant sentance in his post.
Last edited by raven_t3800; 10-30-2008 at 12:57 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
10-30-2008, 12:58 PM
#37
Senior Member
considering that not removing TM and boost cut are 1st grade mistakes, i stand by my comments.
i also said that because after i had asked him to provide the needed information, he reacted just like you did.
he exploded and dident further his case in any way, shape, or form.
if you'd like, e-mail me the tune and i'll take 2sec to stare it over and re-set the needed values, as well as any other changes i would normally recommend.
you can then look at it and use what you want.
i am just trying to help here.
i also said that because after i had asked him to provide the needed information, he reacted just like you did.
he exploded and dident further his case in any way, shape, or form.
if you'd like, e-mail me the tune and i'll take 2sec to stare it over and re-set the needed values, as well as any other changes i would normally recommend.
you can then look at it and use what you want.
i am just trying to help here.
10-30-2008, 12:58 PM
#38
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I would like to thank jonyyb again for having the last post box on the main page. If it wasn't for that, the comedy that ensued in this thread wouldn't have made my day.
06black has forgotten more tuning knowledge than you know. stfu.
06black has forgotten more tuning knowledge than you know. stfu.
10-30-2008, 01:05 PM
#39
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considering that not removing TM and boost cut are 1st grade mistakes, i stand by my comments.
i also said that because after i had asked him to provide the needed information, he reacted just like you did.
he exploded and dident further his case in any way, shape, or form.
if you'd like, e-mail me the tune and i'll take 2sec to stare it over and re-set the needed values, as well as any other changes i would normally recommend.
you can then look at it and use what you want.
i am just trying to help here.
i also said that because after i had asked him to provide the needed information, he reacted just like you did.
he exploded and dident further his case in any way, shape, or form.
if you'd like, e-mail me the tune and i'll take 2sec to stare it over and re-set the needed values, as well as any other changes i would normally recommend.
you can then look at it and use what you want.
i am just trying to help here.
Last edited by raven_t3800; 10-30-2008 at 01:05 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
10-30-2008, 01:06 PM
#41
Senior Member
Yeah your right man but I did disable TM to the best of my knowledge before we started. remember I have been tuning 3800's for years so TM is not anything new to me. Now it does look like I might have missed something in the TM settings and that is completely possible but again it is no reason to call me an idiot either. When I see someone making a mistake that I think I can help with I do just that, not call them an idiot and make it seem like the poster doesn't know what he is doing. In the defense of the owner of the car yes he doesn't really know much about the tuning process but everyone has to start somewhere. Explaining things to him would be a much better way of getting the point across than just calling him duumb don't you think?
in the TM settings, there are max allowed MAP values for the blower, max them out and you'll be good to go.
10-30-2008, 01:13 PM
#44
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i did try to get info from him in my first post in this thread, however he thought it nessicary to go all crazy....and in the end, not answer any of the questions i had asked him.
in the TM settings, there are max allowed MAP values for the blower, max them out and you'll be good to go.
in the TM settings, there are max allowed MAP values for the blower, max them out and you'll be good to go.
Yeah me too but it was more like a **** in the cheerios. :P
Last edited by raven_t3800; 10-30-2008 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
10-30-2008, 01:14 PM
#45
Senior Member
the max boost in 1st and 2nd can be changed from 200% to 100% sience you cant have 200% of anything, its just the way the cal is written at the factory.
it'll be SC map settings.
it'll be SC map settings.
