Whipple W100AX kit interest.
I've gotten the W100AX dimensions from Whipple's casting company, so I can start building the adapters required to bolt the W100AX (1.6L Whipple twinscrew) to the LSJ motor.
I don't think I need to go into the details of the Whipple-designed supercharger system. The new W100AX uses new rotors completely designed by Whipple. According to Whipple, the W100AX is in the neighborhood of 81% maximum efficiency.
Why a Whipple vs the TVS? Well, for one, I feel bad for Harrop. Without a test bed of their own, they are getting mired down waiting on words and results from across the seas (over here in the US of A). The TVS is a great supercharger (1.32L twinscrew) vs the stock Generation 5 M62 (1.0L blower), but I feel the Whipple is the end-all be-all of Supercharged LSJ power. Considering I bought my wife an Ion Redline, I don't have that problem - I'll be doing testing of my own all along
Now, I'm sure someone's going to start spewing rhetoric about a turbocharger. Please understand, some of us simply want to stay supercharged, instead of going turbo. The Whipple setup will allow us to play very favorably with the turbo guys Whipple superchargers are some of the most efficient high speed, high pressure superchargers you can get your hands on.
So let's get down to business, what the hell are we talking here?
I'd like to see us, the LSJ community, put in an order for 10-15 W100AX. Now, please understand, the W100AX is NOT yet 100% in production. The rotors have yet to be built This is a project that will be a couple of months in the making, but if we put our money where our mouths are, we'll convince Whipple we are serious about this.
The plan is simple. I've got the dimensions, so I don't need the real supercharger sitting in front of me, just yet. I've got vast experience designing, prototyping, and building parts on various cars, so what I'll do is this:
1) Design the necessary adapter plates to bolt the W100AX to the stock LSJ motor. I intend this to bolt up 100% in the stock location.
2) Start a group buy on the Superchargers + kits. Once we get the minimum order required by Whipple, I have no problem selling the brackets alone, if someone wants to order a supercharger later down the line - but please understand, the first order of business is getting the W100AX into production! I'd like to see us do the snout, supercharger, plates, and utilize the stock bypass valve, for ~$2000.
3) Ok, so you've got a Whipple bolted up. Guess what? Stock fueling/tune won't cut it. So the second part of this two-pronged plans involves a group buy on 60# injectors, harness, and ECU reflash. I'm aiming for $400 on this side of things.
I think a complete kit out the door, WITH fueling and tuning, for ~$2500 would be a great deal for these cars. First though, I want to know how much interest there actually is, and who would be willing to throw down and go through with this?
My next set of calculations is computing the airflow with a 3.2" pulley on the W100AX (still working on getting estimated flow numbers from Whipple's engineers) - I'd include a 3.1" pulley in the kit, so that you can use the stock belt with no problems.
Those of you on the Redline forums have probably seen the work I've started on this as it is.
Also, is there anyone here in the Central Florida region? I understand the Cobalt SS has less clearance around the hood - which means I'd need a test subject once the W100AXs go into production
I don't think I need to go into the details of the Whipple-designed supercharger system. The new W100AX uses new rotors completely designed by Whipple. According to Whipple, the W100AX is in the neighborhood of 81% maximum efficiency.
Why a Whipple vs the TVS? Well, for one, I feel bad for Harrop. Without a test bed of their own, they are getting mired down waiting on words and results from across the seas (over here in the US of A). The TVS is a great supercharger (1.32L twinscrew) vs the stock Generation 5 M62 (1.0L blower), but I feel the Whipple is the end-all be-all of Supercharged LSJ power. Considering I bought my wife an Ion Redline, I don't have that problem - I'll be doing testing of my own all along
Now, I'm sure someone's going to start spewing rhetoric about a turbocharger. Please understand, some of us simply want to stay supercharged, instead of going turbo. The Whipple setup will allow us to play very favorably with the turbo guys
Whipple superchargers are some of the most efficient high speed, high pressure superchargers you can get your hands on.So let's get down to business, what the hell are we talking here?
I'd like to see us, the LSJ community, put in an order for 10-15 W100AX. Now, please understand, the W100AX is NOT yet 100% in production. The rotors have yet to be built
This is a project that will be a couple of months in the making, but if we put our money where our mouths are, we'll convince Whipple we are serious about this.The plan is simple. I've got the dimensions, so I don't need the real supercharger sitting in front of me, just yet. I've got vast experience designing, prototyping, and building parts on various cars, so what I'll do is this:
1) Design the necessary adapter plates to bolt the W100AX to the stock LSJ motor. I intend this to bolt up 100% in the stock location.
2) Start a group buy on the Superchargers + kits. Once we get the minimum order required by Whipple, I have no problem selling the brackets alone, if someone wants to order a supercharger later down the line - but please understand, the first order of business is getting the W100AX into production! I'd like to see us do the snout, supercharger, plates, and utilize the stock bypass valve, for ~$2000.
3) Ok, so you've got a Whipple bolted up. Guess what? Stock fueling/tune won't cut it. So the second part of this two-pronged plans involves a group buy on 60# injectors, harness, and ECU reflash. I'm aiming for $400 on this side of things.
I think a complete kit out the door, WITH fueling and tuning, for ~$2500 would be a great deal for these cars. First though, I want to know how much interest there actually is, and who would be willing to throw down and go through with this?
My next set of calculations is computing the airflow with a 3.2" pulley on the W100AX (still working on getting estimated flow numbers from Whipple's engineers) - I'd include a 3.1" pulley in the kit, so that you can use the stock belt with no problems.
Those of you on the Redline forums have probably seen the work I've started on this as it is.
Also, is there anyone here in the Central Florida region? I understand the Cobalt SS has less clearance around the hood - which means I'd need a test subject once the W100AXs go into production
I would love to see this done but in all honesty it won't happen period. The is not a good return on the investment in our community to justify the company dropping that kind of money.
Some food for thought to, if the case is anything like the lysholm 1600 you don't have a shot in hell.
All three have slight clearance issue's on the tvs even after revisions were made.
Member
Joined: 01-02-05
Posts: 310
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From: colorado springs colorado
Understood. I'm going to work on the plates over the weekend, and over the next week or so in my spare time.
The biggest problem (for me, at least) is the fact that the W100AX is not yet in production. And as you just put it - with the economy as it is, Whipple is very hesitant to make the W100AX a reality, without some proof upfront that it would be a good investment on Whipple's part.
We've got to jump that hurdle to get going!
The biggest problem (for me, at least) is the fact that the W100AX is not yet in production. And as you just put it - with the economy as it is, Whipple is very hesitant to make the W100AX a reality, without some proof upfront that it would be a good investment on Whipple's part.
We've got to jump that hurdle to get going!
call it an investment, i know lots of companies that will make a product for one person that they dont plan on making, as long as that person has the money to pay for the intitial development of that one unit.
your best bet is to get one made somehow, develop the kit, put it on your car... then market it with dyno numbers and physical evidence and proof that it will in fact perfrom the way that you say it will...
and the twinscrew thing has been done before with a lysholm 1600AX which if im not mistaken is pretty much a whipple. it was smaller than the W100AX tho... they made 294whp with bolt on's, injectors, tune and 21psi... that idea flopped.
not too mention this same group buy, get the W100AX into production type of deal has been tried before and failed.
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/show...ight=twinscrew
Thread Starter
New Member
Joined: 01-01-09
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: Florida
LSJwannabe, I appreciate the pics, and I'm already ahead of you.
For one, the MAP sensor will be relocated (and I'll build an extension harness, don't worry)
For two, the supercharger won't bolt up at the same angle as the stocker. Come on, think in three space guys
For one, the MAP sensor will be relocated (and I'll build an extension harness, don't worry
)For two, the supercharger won't bolt up at the same angle as the stocker. Come on, think in three space guys
Senior Member
Joined: 10-06-05
Posts: 10,944
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From: Seneca, South Carolina
I'll watch and see what happens. I don't have the need to go with a bigger blower yet, I'm going to see what I can do with a good flowing head first. So maybe next year I'll do a blower upgrade. If this makes it by next jan./feb., and it puts out better numbers than the tvs, then I'll be all for it.
Anyone have flow charts to compare with the TVS?
Anyone have flow charts to compare with the TVS?
Senior Member
Joined: 11-27-06
Posts: 6,381
Likes: 1
From: Jacksonville,Florida
I'd like to see us, the LSJ community, put in an order for 10-15 W100AX. Now, please understand, the W100AX is NOT yet 100% in production. The rotors have yet to be built This is a project that will be a couple of months in the making, but if we put our money where our mouths are, we'll convince Whipple we are serious about this.
This is a project that will be a couple of months in the making, but if we put our money where our mouths are, we'll convince Whipple we are serious about this.
Reality is, beyond the ten original TVS owners, who else bought one?
It won't sell. Sucks for the LSJ world, but there aren't enough people willing to sink the money into these cars to really make them competitive with other platforms. I can't blame them, I wouldn't do it either. Thats why I don't have a Cobalt anymore.
It won't sell. Sucks for the LSJ world, but there aren't enough people willing to sink the money into these cars to really make them competitive with other platforms. I can't blame them, I wouldn't do it either. Thats why I don't have a Cobalt anymore.
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Joined: 10-14-07
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From: Austin, TX
Haz l33t wheelz.
Joined: 09-14-07
Posts: 18,883
Likes: 3
From: Costa Mesa CA
i intend on getting a TVS, just not at the right stage for it. Hopefully they will continue making them.
I'll be watching this closely.
1.6L is huge. The 1.32L TVS moves quite a bit of air.
I'll be watching this closely.
1.6L is huge. The 1.32L TVS moves quite a bit of air.
Senior Member
Joined: 09-04-07
Posts: 5,190
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From: FL.. FT LAUDERDALE/MAIMI
There are about 5 people other than the tvs testers that i know bought one and im sure there are others , they just dont post about it. But the reason the tvs didnt sell was because harrop didnt have there own car and there own dyno to show high hp numbers like everyone wanted to see, they had to depend on the testers and the testers arnt going to **** up there daily drivers. If zzp where the testers for the tvs im sure it would have broke 400s wheter or not it is possible and the tvs would be flying off the shelfs.
There are about 5 people other than the tvs testers that i know bought one and im sure there are others , they just dont post about it. But the reason the tvs didnt sell was because harrop didnt have there own car and there own dyno to show high hp numbers like everyone wanted to see, they had to depend on the testers and the testers arnt going to **** up there daily drivers. If zzp where the testers for the tvs im sure it would have broke 400s wheter or not it is possible and the tvs would be flying off the shelfs.
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Joined: 10-14-07
Posts: 1,546
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From: Austin, TX
There are about 5 people other than the tvs testers that i know bought one and im sure there are others , they just dont post about it. But the reason the tvs didnt sell was because harrop didnt have there own car and there own dyno to show high hp numbers like everyone wanted to see, they had to depend on the testers and the testers arnt going to **** up there daily drivers. If zzp where the testers for the tvs im sure it would have broke 400s wheter or not it is possible and the tvs would be flying off the shelfs.
Honestly I'd like to see what ZZP could do with a TVS, partially because if anyone would push the thing to its maximum potential, it'd be a shop like them, but also because I'm a horrible person who likes watching train wrecks.Bottom line; you're asking for a lot of money to be thrown blindly into a project that will in all likelyhood not be as cool as you expect. Just like almost any other endeavor, people aren't going to cough up money just because you have a cool idea.
Get proof of concept first.
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Joined: 07-28-06
Posts: 1,367
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From: Michigan
lol sounds like a scam to me. Some random guy with 19 posts asking for 30,000 dollars to produce a supercharger kit where the supercharger isnt even made, we have no proof of concept, and you have no credibility what so ever...
are people really this stupid? Cause they must be, either this guy is that stupid because hes asking for this or the people who give him the money are that stupid...
If you want to start a business, you have to spend your own capital or a banks capital.
are people really this stupid? Cause they must be, either this guy is that stupid because hes asking for this or the people who give him the money are that stupid...
If you want to start a business, you have to spend your own capital or a banks capital.
Senior Member
Joined: 12-03-06
Posts: 1,791
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From: Merritt Island ,Fl
every time i see post like this i wonder..if its just bolts on, why sell a kit. they would probly make more money just selling the adapter plate. and letting the end user take care of the rest.
most people that would go this route already have every mod in the book, and already have tuning,or they are capable of tuning there self. i think thats why thies kits don't sell. granted 2500 sounds like a good deal.
i think once someone actuly makes one of this kits work(break mid 300hp easly), and cheaper than going turbo they will sell, but as of now the results are so midicore that it hardly seems worth it. i know this is a diffrent supercharger, but id be worried about buying a product that has no R&D , cough cough "TAG" cough.
most people that would go this route already have every mod in the book, and already have tuning,or they are capable of tuning there self. i think thats why thies kits don't sell. granted 2500 sounds like a good deal.
i think once someone actuly makes one of this kits work(break mid 300hp easly), and cheaper than going turbo they will sell, but as of now the results are so midicore that it hardly seems worth it. i know this is a diffrent supercharger, but id be worried about buying a product that has no R&D , cough cough "TAG" cough.
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New Member
Joined: 01-01-09
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From: Florida
lol sounds like a scam to me. Some random guy with 19 posts asking for 30,000 dollars to produce a supercharger kit where the supercharger isnt even made, we have no proof of concept, and you have no credibility what so ever...
are people really this stupid? Cause they must be, either this guy is that stupid because hes asking for this or the people who give him the money are that stupid...
If you want to start a business, you have to spend your own capital or a banks capital.
are people really this stupid? Cause they must be, either this guy is that stupid because hes asking for this or the people who give him the money are that stupid...
If you want to start a business, you have to spend your own capital or a banks capital.
I've designed and built the Probe Industries forged pistons for the 7M platform.
I've designed and built a dual piston aluminum 13" Big Brake Kit, using off the shelf components, for $500 for the MA70 platform.
I'm not asking for any money upfront - I'm asking for people to let me know if there is interest or not. If we can prove to Whipple there is interest, then I can work on getting a prototype W100AX. Once I get that, I can put it through the ringer for everyone, and we can organize a group buy for it
*edit* phatnacky SS - once the W100AX is actually in production, that'll be a viable option from me. That's exactly how I did the big brake kit - they bought the needed adapter plates from me, and they procured the main items (calipers + rotors) via the shops.
If any of the LSJ shops are SERIOUS about this (I'm not one to play games) I've no problem working with them on this. I wouldn't mind working with ZZP, but this might step on their turbo toes
New Member
Joined: 01-05-08
Posts: 128
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From: Asheville, NC
lol sounds like a scam to me. Some random guy with 19 posts asking for 30,000 dollars to produce a supercharger kit where the supercharger isnt even made, we have no proof of concept, and you have no credibility what so ever...
are people really this stupid? Cause they must be, either this guy is that stupid because hes asking for this or the people who give him the money are that stupid...
If you want to start a business, you have to spend your own capital or a banks capital.
are people really this stupid? Cause they must be, either this guy is that stupid because hes asking for this or the people who give him the money are that stupid...
If you want to start a business, you have to spend your own capital or a banks capital.
Haz l33t wheelz.
Joined: 09-14-07
Posts: 18,883
Likes: 3
From: Costa Mesa CA
sure there will be intrest, but you can't expect people to be anything other than sceptical unless you get some kind of numbers.
Harrop worked incredubly close with Eaton to provide computer models, and predictoutput and flow number based on the LSJ, and look how many thay have sold. There are a lot of us willing to spend the money, but a lot of people are just talk as well.
Harrop worked incredubly close with Eaton to provide computer models, and predictoutput and flow number based on the LSJ, and look how many thay have sold. There are a lot of us willing to spend the money, but a lot of people are just talk as well.
Senior Member
Joined: 12-03-06
Posts: 1,791
Likes: 4
From: Merritt Island ,Fl
Head over to www.supramania.com and look up Doward. I'm the Turbocharger Subject Matter Expert there.
I've designed and built the Probe Industries forged pistons for the 7M platform.
I've designed and built a dual piston aluminum 13" Big Brake Kit, using off the shelf components, for $500 for the MA70 platform.
I'm not asking for any money upfront - I'm asking for people to let me know if there is interest or not. If we can prove to Whipple there is interest, then I can work on getting a prototype W100AX. Once I get that, I can put it through the ringer for everyone, and we can organize a group buy for it
*edit* phatnacky SS - once the W100AX is actually in production, that'll be a viable option from me. That's exactly how I did the big brake kit - they bought the needed adapter plates from me, and they procured the main items (calipers + rotors) via the shops.
If any of the LSJ shops are SERIOUS about this (I'm not one to play games) I've no problem working with them on this. I wouldn't mind working with ZZP, but this might step on their turbo toes
I've designed and built the Probe Industries forged pistons for the 7M platform.
I've designed and built a dual piston aluminum 13" Big Brake Kit, using off the shelf components, for $500 for the MA70 platform.
I'm not asking for any money upfront - I'm asking for people to let me know if there is interest or not. If we can prove to Whipple there is interest, then I can work on getting a prototype W100AX. Once I get that, I can put it through the ringer for everyone, and we can organize a group buy for it
*edit* phatnacky SS - once the W100AX is actually in production, that'll be a viable option from me. That's exactly how I did the big brake kit - they bought the needed adapter plates from me, and they procured the main items (calipers + rotors) via the shops.
If any of the LSJ shops are SERIOUS about this (I'm not one to play games) I've no problem working with them on this. I wouldn't mind working with ZZP, but this might step on their turbo toes
thats reassuring , you have to understand why every one is so skeptical, a few people got burned ,with something just like this. basically people fronted a large amount of money to develop a kit somenever got the finale product or there money back, someone else took over the project, and once the product was finished ,it underperformed. so its gonna take alot to earn everyones trust.
on top of that,a large bottle neck is the stock intake manifold , a few people think,no matter what you stick on top of it , you wont see the gain you expect because its so restrictive.
alot of testing is gonna have to go into this, and its probably why most companies
aren't interested in making a kit. they would never sell enough to warrant all the R&D.
im surprised the TVS even exist.
its not as simple as it may seem, its more than just making it fit, thats been done with the 1200AX and at some ungodly amount of boost(21+psi) it didn't even break 300hp,could be due to the intake... could be becasue the 1200 is to large ...who knows becasue noone has looked into enough. the same amount of power could have been made on the stock blower for less. so id have to know if the w100ax will work better on this car.
but hell if it works , id fork over 2500 without hesitation.
Haz l33t wheelz.
Joined: 09-14-07
Posts: 18,883
Likes: 3
From: Costa Mesa CA
the IM isn't that bad, granted, it's not perfect, and porting it a little does help, but it also degrades the laminova performance.
the most restictive part of our cars is the head. GM said it back when Powell was building the TA cars. Port the exhaust side, and you'll see impressive gains.
the most restictive part of our cars is the head. GM said it back when Powell was building the TA cars. Port the exhaust side, and you'll see impressive gains.
Outside of the testers i can count on two hands how many have been sold. Harrop made 100 units to order after the testers gave them fitment info. Whipple will not work with you trust me, i have talked numerous times with kenne bell and whipple neither are interested nor have ever been interested.