OK, if this is such a *great* unit why isn't everyone using? why did it take years finally for alpine to use the SMT-6 on a Cobalt? How come even before the Cobalt the Ion crowd won't use it? What worries me the most is that it says it can tune ANY car I highly doubt that.

To answer this question:

No one is going to care if it is safe or not. Presently it's the only trickery that's available for supposed "tuning" dealers don't care about that, they care about thinking about getting the customer something right now regardless if it's safe or not. Until YOUR car can get a year under it's belt with the SMT-6 unit no one should be using it.

Lets say I take my car to a performance shop when it first came out and I say I want power out of this car, do you really think they are going to think about safety? No of course not, they are going to think about getting the performance out of the car regardless if it's safe or not. I asked for it, they are just supplying..

If Alpine was smart they won't offer this as a product knowingly and willingly that the SMT-6 isn't a real tuning product for a turbocharged car and can/will cause problems in the long run.

The PCM is a self learning unit. It's going to learn your tricks with the programmer and it will go around it and set the car back how it should operate. It's like giving someone uppers and downers for depression.

Also not safe. Another reason why not to use.

 

unfortunatly im just as concerned and skeptical(sp?) as sneaky. Theres just too many things that can go wrong with piggybacks, even more when timing cannot be changed.

Basicly it's like this, we all give you a nice Borat "HIGH FIVE" for getting us this much closer to a turbocharged engine. Hopefuly with alpine's help and with the various tuners working on a way to fully crack the ECU and with your car being the test ground for working out bugs, hopefuly soon we will have an awnser....

 

the smt-6 did pull timing. I don't think my car would have made it 900 miles straight driving without it.

 

Sneaky, why so aggressive? You seem ticked off.

 

People tend to get aggravated when they dont understand something...hahn will never crack that ecu it's to picky, any kind of intake on it and it throws a CEL. Damn delphi!!!!!, i mean how long have they been doing R&D on the cavy? are those things even out??.

Seriously though bro you need to chill out...your going to pop a vein, blow a artery or even develop a spastic colon. take 10 deep breathes and whooossaaaaaaa . Im so glad this joyful thread turned into such a great debate as usuall

Safe or not it's one step closer than what i've seen from anyone else

 

Not to go too far offtopic but I wanted to add a few things.

AEM is finally releasing to the public a fuel injection/ignition controller very similar to a greddy emanage but this one supposedly supports GM style maf sensors unlike greddy. If any piggyback can do this without a SES light, this should be the one.

The SMT-6 is a great unit and it literally works on anything. You guys saying that a piggyback is a halfassed way to go must not have tuned very many cars. For example, look at the number of Hondas running around with turbo kits or custom setups. Unless they wanna dump 1000+ into Hondata S300 or K-pro, you better believe they're running piggybacks such as emanage or crome. Piggybacks have been used for years on many more applications than stock PCM rewriting software. Ok /endrant on that.

The PE delay thing, on GM's pcms its controlled by 3 factors, and actually one less on cobalts. PE is relative to TPS, MAP, and RPM...but 2.0, 2.4, and 2.2-jbodys seem to ignore the rpm value no matter what you set it to (technically the j-bodies use alpha-n and only have a map for ignition purposes, which makes it one step easier). The reason it looks like a time delay, even though it isn't, is because of a slow enrichment rate. This is all solved through a complete MAP signal interception with an SMT6/7 or eManage.

Edit: I didn't mean to flame anybody, just wanted to toss some info out there that I'm aware of.

Edit again: Here's a link to the AEM unit that I'm growing fond of. http://www.dcsports.com/ViewCategory...CategoryID=116
Its mentioned in the build book at least once, and I used to read about it on popular tuning forums and magazines about it being available to some outlets, but not publically for a year or two until now.

 

I'm not. I hate people who judge others peoples knowledge when they don't know. I completly understand what a piggy back does and all it really is ... TRICKERY. They are coming on here stating that the SMT-6 unit is an excellent unit and running this with a backyard looking turbo setup works fine with the 2.2 in all reality it might be a great starting point but it's so limited to tuning and giving false hope and impressions on a setup such as this shouldn't be advertised to begin with.

Reasons being:

1. It's not safe.
2. The kit is overpriced, you can make one for half the price.
3. Alpine is not even a supporting vendor but they are freely advertising it those who have it installed (the people who have it installed anyways).
4. Kit doesn't even look of even fair quality
5. Ion community had just as many problems so...why try putting it on a Cobalt?
6. This kit has been talked about before and dismissed because everything about it is misleading.

Let me ask you a question HalfCent... would you install this on your car? I won't.

When Hahn can finally release a product it will be of excellent quality regardless of price and will be backed. Can Alpine make the same agreement?

Congrats to those who have made it work on there car but I'm going to tell ya. It's not going to last long on the setup you have. I am one for people pioneering aftermarket but I won't even look at this...

/End Rant.

P.S All this turbo talk and for something to come out is great. I didn't mean to rain on anyones parade. Someone needs to know so they aren't misinformed.

 

I hate to be the one to say this, but this is really ironic. That last post makes it blatantly obvious how much experience you have in using piggybacks or tuning in general.

 

When there is limited to no tuning I understand using such a platform is your only means of tuning. Now, you guys keep giving up on the hope of having a real tuning based platform and something will come out. You guys are so damn impatient and the endless turbo threads are getting annoying. At least once everyday a new thread is made about this.

If you want to use something your not fimilar with and hope that it works thats fine by me. Now I will say I am limited to piggy back platform experience but I know that several speed shops in the Metro Detroit Area who refuse to use them. Why? Because it can't help achieve the goals people are looking for. Whether they are realistic or far fetched.

I've only been tuning for a few months (7-8 months) and even I know when speaking with people who have *real* knowledge in the topic of tuning that using this is a bad idea. I don't have all the same answers others might. Just because I dont' have as much experience doenst' mean that I don't know it. I've learned so much in almost a year talking with people who really know what they are doing.

Don't get butt hurt Witt if this is not the kind of answer your looking for. This is my opinon. I am entitled to say it. You are entitled to yours. We are all on here to gain and share knowledge. I think this community has scared so many others away who wants to share common knowledge that it's not even worth coming on here.

 

http://www.hahnracecraft.com/auto/Ca...ecplatform.htm

See that FCIU...thats a piggy back...at that time when those were released nobody had hacked the pcm

They have also been turbocharging neons for years...arguabley make the best kit as well...Know what they use...a resistor on the map sensor to fool the ecm to not see boost then a rrfpr to add fueling...they later released a port fueler with a control box to further trck the pcm and deliver fuel.

Trust me...they "half ass" it...tho it is not half assing to people with tuning experience.

Smt has been used to tun thousands of cars and works fine...technically I am just fooling my LSJ since the IFRvsMAP able cant handle the flow my injectors put out thru my HPT tune.

For a true example of half assing search for a 2.2 thread about intakes.

Also how is it not safe...AF is in prescribed range and no KR im assuming

Yes you can make one for half priced...I was with mine but its now on hold due to motorcycle..yes it will be high quality but most people (most likely you included) do not have the time, resources, knowledge, or skill to pull it off.

JBP's cams make no hp...so by sneakys logic they should be banned?

Also iirc Alpine make the s/c kits with THE most hp for tiburons...and the kits are NICE.

It is obvious when you go thru these types of threads who really has tuned and who hasnt.

The real tuners use what they have to to achieve the desired results (skills, knowledge, ingenuity)...the "poser tuners" just bitch and moan if one product doesnt do it all at the touch of a buton.

 

well ok i see how sneaky is thinking. he thinks why should i buy a product thats not really efficiant and is risky to use?? and on top of that the safety of ur engine and product??

sneaky i agree on that. i wouldnt buy something unless i had total control like an HPT or SCT does.

again i also think sneaky has his personal preference on how to tune a car and make HP.
now im no expert on either of these but i think its more of a guess and check/hope for the best system with a piggyback even if people tune it persay. again most people arent super tuners and have years of experience in this stuff. so ya u may be right on how piggy backs are good.

but again i think its just a personal preference. congrats on the turbo 2.2 but its also a question how long the 2.2 is gonna last?? thats probably the main thing sneakys getting at. just all the stuff that could go wrong when doing something like this. thats all

end rant

im out PEACE

 

Rofl, butthurt? Come on, you just admitted you have 6-7 months tuning experience, and you are trying to convince people that fooling an ECM is unsafe.

Under that assumption, I guess Hondas running a missing link on a boosted setup are unsafe, or how about the srt4 guys map clamping when they upgrade wastegate actuators, or people using Si controllers to alter Valve timing engagement? All that is "rofl trickery".

Its a shame that as soon as someone took the leap to piggyback the 2.2 eco cobalt, they're just flamed to hell and back on the forums by people who really have no clue in what they're doing.

 

http://hptuners.com/forum/showpost.p...2&postcount=51

http://hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9452

http://hptuners.com/forum/showthread...5725#post65725

Lastly that post

Basically...you may get it...sometime...but your on there and have seen that...be lucky u have sct and diablo coming...tho i doubt youll get teh control hpt gives u...tho I would love to try ls2 edit

BTW i have been tuning for about 1 yr now...Witt is at 3 I think

 

Dan,

I am not disagreeing with you or no one else but I've never seen solid proof that this is used as a "long term solution" and anyone I've come in contact with has either. I don't look for products to do everything for me.. also I am unsure how JBP cams don't make power but to each there own.

Just never heard good reviews on the SMT-6, maybe you or the others can shed light? That's the obvious question most people want answers for before placing an investment and learning something. Think of me as asking in the eyes of a newb but not necessarly being a newb.

-Mike

 

In all seriousness, I've used piggybacks and a standalone on everything else I've tuned or participated in tuning and the only time I've had a major component fail was with HPTuners (head gasket). I've tuned a Hyundai Scoupe factory turbo with AEM, 01 'lude turbo with s300, smt6 w/si controller on a crx n/a (2 actually, but it was just a engine swap from one to another) and in the process of using emanage with a crx with a d16 swap and mitsu 15g turbo, not to mention mine and one other LSJ with HPTuners.

I really didn't mean to jack a thread this far, but I don't think the OP was intending anything good out of it. The gist of what I'm saying is there is no perfect solution for turning an N/A car into a boosted one. Some people are required to pass smog checks and some others are strapped for cash and need a quick way to go fast. There is a different solution for everything, but imo if it runs and lasts for a decent amount of time, it wasn't halfassed or incorrect.

 

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I never flamed I said it's a bad idea and technically unsafe. How is that flaming? It's an interesting setup needless to say but several questions I've asked have gone unanswered which makes me think the people who have this installed don't have a clue themselves what they are really getting into.

I've heard of SCT and Diablo my friend to use on his 03 Cobra. SCT's setup is nice but I don't know much about them other then they have a new product no one knows about and has inquired about heavily, xcal. Can't wait to see if they finally have something worth using.

 

What questions were you asking about? I never put one in a Cobalt, but I do have some experience with one, maybe I can point ya in the right direction.

I think the people here that you are asking didn't install it themselves and those who did are not active members on this forum.

I'm tuning with eManage as we speak and Dan is trying to teach us Megasquirt so I'm starting to confuse everything and become a bit irritated with all this tuning **** lately.

 

well im just gonna wait it out and let these people do what they do. In ontario the cops are cracking down on the "Tuner" lifestyle. you don't even have to be speeding. if u look fast ur getting pulled over. so im in no rush

 

Well see I don't have nothing against you Witt. I'm just an odd ball at best. Since the E16 seems to be installed on 04' Ions and Up / 05-06 Cobalt and it's a one bar how does it make it anymore tuneable then we will say a two bar SS/SC or SS/NA? I thought the whole reason for not touching the E16 was difficulty of setting correct parameters for readings of sensors and fuel maps/ignition timing/knock retard/Advanced VE table settings etc not because it's a one bar and uses 16 bit processing.

I know the new E37 (I hope that's the right model for 07, correct me if I am wrong). is a 32-bit processor and HPT has confirmed it's an easier PCM to program rather then the E16 (which they gave up all hope for basically). I know the PCM is a self learner and using a component that ultimately changes parameters but cannot fully keep them locked at all times because of the PCM how does the SMT-6 work to keep a constant no change signal to the PCM?

Why does the SMT-6 offer programming for every car? I thought everything about every car is different. I know they operate on the same principal but no one car is the same.

I've seen older piggy back programmers and I know we have come along way in the world of products that offer innovation but what makes me spektical about this kit is the lack of in your face adjustment. The SMT-6 is no HPT and cannot opearate on the same spectrum in terms of changes and features/availablity as HPT. So how does the SMT unit make all of it's changes that are required on the back end that it cannot access?

 

The resolution of the MAP really doesn't affect the tuning of the piggyback because you can set the piggyback to report back to the stock ecm any value you wish, which accomplishes a couple of things. First you can run a 2 bar map for the piggyback to use while still outputting a one bar signal to the stock ecm. This allows you to pass map to maf correlation checks for the electronic throttle. When you go into boost, the piggyback will report to the ecm a WOT condition (nearly 5v) and the MAF will probably not be altered much, which using logic, would throw map/maf correlation off, but it doesn't because as soon as the map goes out of range on the table, the ECM has the ability to use the last known good value without throwing an SES light. This can be demonstrated on a 2.0 lsj anytime you run more than 210 kpa in the VE, you have a 2.5 bar sensor, but a map table only for 2 bar.

As for differences in PCM, the reason HPT has given up support for the 2.2 guys is they don't share a PCM with any other make/model of car, so the time spent to reverse engineer the security seed wouldn't justify the small market that the e16 appeals to. The whole 16 bit 32 bit thing doesn't affect us as far as tuning really, and as a matter of fact looking at a 32 bit pcm such as the 2.4 it basically has an uneditable VE table becuase of it's complexity.

The SMT6 works on almost every car becuase every car is going to have a number of snesors and actuators that won't be too different from another. A map sensor on one car, will be similar to a map on another. SMT6 supports almost every type of sensor and actuator made. A greddy emanage is the closest thing, but the big difference is it doesn't like the GM MAF sensor because it reports frequency instead of voltage. Now, what an SMT won't control is any type of VVT systems, emanage will and so will the new AEM piggyback.

When using a piggyback, you still keep the same safeguards if not more than using an editable pcm program. You never eliminate the countermeasures, you just alter input signals to the ecm and out put signals to fuel injectors and ignition systems. With all tuning systems, it will only do what you program it to do.

Edit: I think I'm wrong about the reason why greddy won't work, looking at it, it doesn't seem to support MAF at all. I mighta been told wrong about that, I see no other reason why it wouldn't work though.

 

I would like to say THANK YOU everybody for having a good, solid argument without insulting each other. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

 

The SMT-6 can retard timing, it's just a matter of getting it work with the cobalt CKP sensor signal.

 

Im not here to argue, I am here to learn, If I want to argue, I'd PM Wasey asking him why he is such a tool.

 

Wasey has feelings too lol