Gene's 2.2 LAP Supercharger Build
08-24-2009, 08:23 PM
#377
Senior Member
Join Date: 07-29-05
Location: AZ
Posts: 7,926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe Vince and I went over this when I considered using the SCIP sensor in place of the factory MAP.
My guess is your car isn't liking the intake temps its seeing and is attempting to adjust for it.
If its givin you that much trouble I would just go back to stock. Obviously its nice to know the info but its not like cooling mods are a mystery. We already know what it takes to cool down the intake charge...
No idea though either on the ambient air temp reading...
My guess is your car isn't liking the intake temps its seeing and is attempting to adjust for it.
If its givin you that much trouble I would just go back to stock. Obviously its nice to know the info but its not like cooling mods are a mystery. We already know what it takes to cool down the intake charge...
No idea though either on the ambient air temp reading...
08-24-2009, 09:58 PM
#378
I believe Vince and I went over this when I considered using the SCIP sensor in place of the factory MAP.
My guess is your car isn't liking the intake temps its seeing and is attempting to adjust for it.
If its givin you that much trouble I would just go back to stock. Obviously its nice to know the info but its not like cooling mods are a mystery. We already know what it takes to cool down the intake charge...
No idea though either on the ambient air temp reading...
My guess is your car isn't liking the intake temps its seeing and is attempting to adjust for it.
If its givin you that much trouble I would just go back to stock. Obviously its nice to know the info but its not like cooling mods are a mystery. We already know what it takes to cool down the intake charge...
No idea though either on the ambient air temp reading...
I don't believe at this point that it is a temp issue. My IAT2's at cruising are just a little above what I was seeing when I was keeping track of my IAT1's.
Also, when I pulled the run the other day it was like 6 miles or so from my house and the outside temp was like 85 or something and my IAT2 was 100 so I don't believe it retarded itself.
Perhaps it is retarding itself for other reasons. I'll play around with it on the way to work tomorrow and keep an eye on the retard, lol.
To me the IAT2's are important. On each and every individual SC install we don't know what to expect for temps because everyone runs a different setup. MP81 has the Cobra Heat exchanger with the Stu mod and I have the ZZP, etc. Some people only use the stock heat exchanger, so temps can vary depending on the pulley and heat exchanger chosen.
I would much rather keep an eye on the IAT2's so I can make sure my pump is working. This will alert me in the future if the pump is working and/or if the wiring is messed up.
Of course now that I see that the IAT2's are ok then it wouldn't hurt to go back to stock. Pain in the butt is I would have to get a new connector at this point and re-do the connector, etc.
If this kills my driveablilty, sure, I'm going to rid of it, but Vince said it would need retuned and I'm sure he can tune me for it. If it doesn't work out then it will be taken out and I will be back to normal hopefully!
I have a feeling with 16PSI, if it stays, that my clutch is not going to take this.
I will keep an eye on the retard tomorrow and report back.
08-25-2009, 12:27 AM
#380
Can I see the timing on my Interceptor or am I looking for retard?
I have ambient temp on my Interceptor and I cannot figure out where the data is coming from. My IAT1 is not connected or no longer working... it is not the same temp as the outside air temperature so where the hell is the info coming from?
I have ambient temp on my Interceptor and I cannot figure out where the data is coming from. My IAT1 is not connected or no longer working... it is not the same temp as the outside air temperature so where the hell is the info coming from?
as far as ambient, my ambient temps on my interceptor match near perfectly with my ambient temps displayed on the DIC. They should both be pulling numbers from the ambient air sensor located below the drivers side headlight. It might have a little variation, as the resistance of longer lengths of wire can change the volage, so it may display a few degrees off, but it should be pretty damn close to what the DIC reads...lol
also, as far as your poor running car, your ECU is seeing 40% of the air pressure that is actually present in your car, so it thinks it needs to open the TB more in order to flow the correct amount of airflow necessary to idle/run. On top of this, since the air it thinks is IAT1 is actually a hotter IAT2 charge, it is probably pulling some timing to compensate, or doing something else to compensate for the hotter air charge.
Im actually surprised you havent thrown a MAP-MAF correlation CEL yet, as your MAP is seeing X airflow, but your MAF is seeing 2.5X airflow at the same time. That usually puts a car in limp mode.
Last edited by HunterKiller89; 08-25-2009 at 12:48 AM.
08-25-2009, 09:13 AM
#381
New Member
Join Date: 08-17-09
Location: Lake Jackson TX
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wanting to supercharge my cobalt
Hey dude I have an 06 2.2 cobalt and I am wanting to supercharge it also. What other parts am I going to need besides the performance fuel pump, filter,injectors, and spark plugs? I am pricing the supercharger right now. Thanks man for the info!!
08-25-2009, 10:46 PM
#382
Hey be nice now, lol. There have been a few 16's on the board and haven't said anything about a boom. I don't drive my car like I stole it most of the time. I just jump on it when someone is messing around lol.
Ok, I didn't see this before now, but this morning I remembered there being an ignition advance on my Interceptor so I turned it on. I had it on retard and ignition advance today. I never saw any knock at all.
With retard... at idle it is around 10. Cruising on the highway it was between 30 and 40. When I go WOT I believe it is around 16.
I know the knock is ok. Is the timing ok or is it out of whack?
Casey, you are out of control on this one, lol. Trying to make my head spin with all of the info.
Sorry for sounding stupid, but why is my ECU only seeing 40% of the air pressure? Is it supposed to see more?
As far as that ambient thing...I'll have to delve further into it, but it sounds as if you're on the right track.
Thanks for chiming in with the info and any other answers you have to my questions.
I honestly didn't plan for it to go so long in between a tune on this... as I didn't realize Vince was going on vacation until I was in the middle of the project.
I don't know about any performance fuel pump. I am running stock. My parts list is a couple of pages back. I am still working on the final list.
its labeled advance i believe. it ignition timing, or ignition advance, or spark advance.
as far as ambient, my ambient temps on my interceptor match near perfectly with my ambient temps displayed on the DIC. They should both be pulling numbers from the ambient air sensor located below the drivers side headlight. It might have a little variation, as the resistance of longer lengths of wire can change the volage, so it may display a few degrees off, but it should be pretty damn close to what the DIC reads...lol
also, as far as your poor running car, your ECU is seeing 40% of the air pressure that is actually present in your car, so it thinks it needs to open the TB more in order to flow the correct amount of airflow necessary to idle/run. On top of this, since the air it thinks is IAT1 is actually a hotter IAT2 charge, it is probably pulling some timing to compensate, or doing something else to compensate for the hotter air charge.
Im actually surprised you havent thrown a MAP-MAF correlation CEL yet, as your MAP is seeing X airflow, but your MAF is seeing 2.5X airflow at the same time. That usually puts a car in limp mode.
as far as ambient, my ambient temps on my interceptor match near perfectly with my ambient temps displayed on the DIC. They should both be pulling numbers from the ambient air sensor located below the drivers side headlight. It might have a little variation, as the resistance of longer lengths of wire can change the volage, so it may display a few degrees off, but it should be pretty damn close to what the DIC reads...lol
also, as far as your poor running car, your ECU is seeing 40% of the air pressure that is actually present in your car, so it thinks it needs to open the TB more in order to flow the correct amount of airflow necessary to idle/run. On top of this, since the air it thinks is IAT1 is actually a hotter IAT2 charge, it is probably pulling some timing to compensate, or doing something else to compensate for the hotter air charge.
Im actually surprised you havent thrown a MAP-MAF correlation CEL yet, as your MAP is seeing X airflow, but your MAF is seeing 2.5X airflow at the same time. That usually puts a car in limp mode.
With retard... at idle it is around 10. Cruising on the highway it was between 30 and 40. When I go WOT I believe it is around 16.
I know the knock is ok. Is the timing ok or is it out of whack?
Casey, you are out of control on this one, lol. Trying to make my head spin with all of the info.
Sorry for sounding stupid, but why is my ECU only seeing 40% of the air pressure? Is it supposed to see more?
As far as that ambient thing...I'll have to delve further into it, but it sounds as if you're on the right track.
Thanks for chiming in with the info and any other answers you have to my questions.
I honestly didn't plan for it to go so long in between a tune on this... as I didn't realize Vince was going on vacation until I was in the middle of the project.
I don't know about any performance fuel pump. I am running stock. My parts list is a couple of pages back. I am still working on the final list.
Last edited by Gene Culley; 08-25-2009 at 10:46 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
08-26-2009, 01:43 AM
#383
Casey, you are out of control on this one, lol. Trying to make my head spin with all of the info.
Sorry for sounding stupid, but why is my ECU only seeing 40% of the air pressure? Is it supposed to see more?
Sorry for sounding stupid, but why is my ECU only seeing 40% of the air pressure? Is it supposed to see more?
However, you have a 1bar tune, but have a 2.5bar (about 37PSIa) MAP sensor. When your car is at 0 PSI boost (14.7PSIa), the sensor will send, say 2 volts of current, because the sensor sees 14.7PSIa as only about 2/5ths of its maximum pressure, so it will only send 5 volts if it sees 37PSIa. The ECU receives these 2 volts, and, thinking you're still running a 1bar MAP sensor, it calculates you are seeing about 6PSIa, when you are in fact running almost 3x that amount.
Basically, the ECU is not scaled the same as the sensor. What Vince will do, is rescale the MAP map so that the ECU knows that 5Volts means 37PSIa instead of 14.7PSIa, 2Volts means 14.7PSIa instead of 6PSIa, etc.
I hope that makes sense. If not, ill try explaining a different way.
I don't know about any performance fuel pump. I am running stock. My parts list is a couple of pages back. I am still working on the final list.
08-26-2009, 02:07 AM
#384
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: 11-16-05
Location: The AZ
Posts: 1,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
08-26-2009, 02:26 PM
#385
Senior Member
Join Date: 07-29-05
Location: AZ
Posts: 7,926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh wait ur running the 2.5bar without a new tune? I didn't even think about that =/
If that is the case Id say ur in luck because you don't have to do anything to fix the prob lol
Btw did u purchase the tuning cable or have you had the tuner this whole time?
If that is the case Id say ur in luck because you don't have to do anything to fix the prob lol
Btw did u purchase the tuning cable or have you had the tuner this whole time?
08-26-2009, 09:12 PM
#386
those timing numbers look about right (seems i run less timing than you at WOT though, im around 12).
well, the sensor (like most sensors) will send a signal between 0 and 5 volts to the ECU. 0 volts means there is no pressure at all, 5 volts means there is full pressure. So, since your car is currently tuned for a 1 bar map sensor (14.7PSIa), whenever your stock sensor sees 14.7PSIa or more (or 0psi of boost), the sensor would normally send 5 volts to the ECU, which the ECU would then interpret as you running at 14.7PSIa.
However, you have a 1bar tune, but have a 2.5bar (about 37PSIa) MAP sensor. When your car is at 0 PSI boost (14.7PSIa), the sensor will send, say 2 volts of current, because the sensor sees 14.7PSIa as only about 2/5ths of its maximum pressure, so it will only send 5 volts if it sees 37PSIa. The ECU receives these 2 volts, and, thinking you're still running a 1bar MAP sensor, it calculates you are seeing about 6PSIa, when you are in fact running almost 3x that amount.
Basically, the ECU is not scaled the same as the sensor. What Vince will do, is rescale the MAP map so that the ECU knows that 5Volts means 37PSIa instead of 14.7PSIa, 2Volts means 14.7PSIa instead of 6PSIa, etc.
I hope that makes sense. If not, ill try explaining a different way.
well, the sensor (like most sensors) will send a signal between 0 and 5 volts to the ECU. 0 volts means there is no pressure at all, 5 volts means there is full pressure. So, since your car is currently tuned for a 1 bar map sensor (14.7PSIa), whenever your stock sensor sees 14.7PSIa or more (or 0psi of boost), the sensor would normally send 5 volts to the ECU, which the ECU would then interpret as you running at 14.7PSIa.
However, you have a 1bar tune, but have a 2.5bar (about 37PSIa) MAP sensor. When your car is at 0 PSI boost (14.7PSIa), the sensor will send, say 2 volts of current, because the sensor sees 14.7PSIa as only about 2/5ths of its maximum pressure, so it will only send 5 volts if it sees 37PSIa. The ECU receives these 2 volts, and, thinking you're still running a 1bar MAP sensor, it calculates you are seeing about 6PSIa, when you are in fact running almost 3x that amount.
Basically, the ECU is not scaled the same as the sensor. What Vince will do, is rescale the MAP map so that the ECU knows that 5Volts means 37PSIa instead of 14.7PSIa, 2Volts means 14.7PSIa instead of 6PSIa, etc.
I hope that makes sense. If not, ill try explaining a different way.
Thank you for letting me know. This all makes sense. As you may or may not know the Interceptor has a boost function. I messed around with it when the car was running fine with the other MAP and it read my vacuum correctly, but it only went up to like 2lbs of boost, but when it went to vacuum it was the correct reading that was showing up on my boost gauge.
So if I had -17 vacuum it would say that on the Interceptor. I noticed today if it is around -17 vacuum it says -23 on the Interceptor... so there's obviously some stuff wrong here.
I played around with the timing thing again and I am seeing 12.0 - 13.5 at WOT. Sorry for providing the wrong number of 16 I gave last night.
I guess this MAP sensor business is really critical stuff because I'm robbed of 90-100 HP!
Thank you.
i would highly recommend going back to page one of this thread, and read every post. Im not trying to be an ass. In just trying to say the guys who frequently post here are very knowledgable about the delicate process of supercharging the 2.2 for they have already experienced the build. now they trial and error problems and constantly improve. Props to all you guys. Specially gene for the thread and build notes. I learned alot by reading this thread. For i will be starting my build next sunday. Wish me luck..
What happened was... I discussed this whole 2.5bar MAP and 2.8 pulley and cold air intake business with Vince. I told him it was going to take me a couple of weeks to get the parts together and install and get it working.
I told him that I realized I probably wore out my welcome with the cable and I would send it back and when I'm ready to re-tune he could tell me what the cost was and send me the cable again.
He was a gentleman and said he had plenty of cables in stock and he'd rather save the shipping monies and that I should keep it for a couple of weeks until I was ready and then he would charge me the price of an updated tune... which I'm not sure how much that is.. so I currently have the cable.
I was going to see what my IAT2's were, install the CAI and possibly see if I could go down to the 2.8 pulley. But... as I mentioned, I'm pretty sure I'm hitting at least 16PSI and I am not comfortable past that so if Vince tunes me again and I'm at 16PSI still I'm calling it quits, lol.
Last edited by Gene Culley; 08-26-2009 at 09:12 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
08-28-2009, 01:35 PM
#389
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: 05-31-08
Location: Ohio
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been followin ya since your first post gene. and you guys are damn good at what you do. I've been slowly trying to get a list of parts based on wha tyou guys hav been talking about, but once your final list is out I'm going to attmpt this too. now does your car have vvt or not? because I know mine does and I'm wondering ifthat's gonna cause any issues.
08-29-2009, 10:11 AM
#391
We're starting to get into the time of year here, in PA, that our hot days are over... high of 79 today.. so if temp really does play into the PSI... I'm going to have 17 or 18 PSI when it gets colder here. Heck, I may even get 17 now since it is about 15 to 20 degrees cooler than it has been.
I've been followin ya since your first post gene. and you guys are damn good at what you do. I've been slowly trying to get a list of parts based on wha tyou guys hav been talking about, but once your final list is out I'm going to attmpt this too. now does your car have vvt or not? because I know mine does and I'm wondering ifthat's gonna cause any issues.
Right now I'm trying to move my GM Parts Business and I just sold my house after 2 years and the buyers are giving me 3 weeks to find another home so my time is short for a couple of weeks.
Mine is VVT and there is no problem with that, as Jn2 mentioned, since Vince already has it figured out.
Last edited by Gene Culley; 08-29-2009 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
08-31-2009, 02:09 AM
#393
Senior Member
Most definitely true. 7-8psi in summer turned into 9-10 on <20F days on my car. Also you will see AFR's lean out, almost a full point when its cold enough. Yea the car is supposed to compensate automatically, and it does, just not enough. Hence why you see many-a lsj's go down in winter with summer tunes.
08-31-2009, 08:03 PM
#394
Most definitely true. 7-8psi in summer turned into 9-10 on <20F days on my car. Also you will see AFR's lean out, almost a full point when its cold enough. Yea the car is supposed to compensate automatically, and it does, just not enough. Hence why you see many-a lsj's go down in winter with summer tunes.
The day I got the 16PSI it was hot out... and it is cooler this week so when Vince actually gets back to me we'll see what happens. If this holds true... I should have 17 to 18 PSI. Ughh... scary.