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its soon going to be time to freshen the engine in my 944, so im starting to look at options for more power. right now im at about the safe limit of the l61 block at around 500hp. plans in the future are to move up to the 650-700hp range, and ultimately id like to build a short block that will handle 800hp and be reliable. my plans are to run a drag week event with the car, and id like to be competitive in the 10.00 class, so thats where i gotta be. while ive got much of my combination figured out in my head, however the block itself is a bit of a head scratcher.
i havent really kept up on the current block mods and combinations. i know a deck girdle is going to be a must, who is doing that these days? i see CSS (cylinder support system) has it listed that they do the ecotec blocks, however i cant say ive eve heard of anyone that is running it. i know a while back someone was selling stronger drop in sleeves (not the dartons), are they still available? is it worthwhile to run a girdled block with the stronger sleeves?
i guess the next question is what is now the best block to start with? i know the gen 3 blocks are stronger due to being a semi closed deck, but when doing a deck girdle is the gen 3 block still the best option?
something i want to do regardless of what block i go with is eliminate the oil filter housing as i run a remote filter/cooler and the the housing is really in the way. at one point years back i remember seeing someone made a billet plate with fitting in it, and you would mill the filter housing off, drill and tap the block to bolt it on. anyone remember anything about that? id prefer that method to welding fittings to the block like gm racing did back in the day.
y info or knows where to point me id appreciate it
if anyone has an
MrBelvedere (?) was selling drop in sleeves - he's John Walters on Facebook, iirc. Based out of Kentucky. Not sure if he's still selling them. When I was looking to get my car back together two years ago, we discussed them though, so I have to imagine he's still doing them.
Bates was the other company that made sleeves. I've seen my share of horror stories. I think Deathscythe might have documented his issues on here - iirc, Bates didn't press machine the block flat after install, so coolant was able to mix with oil. It was just a tiny tickle, so it went undetected for a while - ended up destroying the engine eventually though, iirc.
And I would think if you're going to do a girdle, the block you start with shouldn't matter much. Gen 3 sleeves aren't replaceable though, iirc. The block is cast around them - something to keep in mind.
And iirc, Rod ( @victory_red_SS ) used/bought an oil filter housing delete like that. He should have some insight.
i remember seeing problems with the bates sleeves. iirc, they were darton sleeves. thats been proven to really be a drag race only option.
i knew there was something about the sleeves being non replaceable in the gen 3 blocks, i wasnt aware the block was cast around the sleeves. good to know. in theory the gen 3 blocks should be a better casting being sand cast (opposed to lost foam), however i guess the best option would be sticking with a gen 1 l61/lsj/lk9 block
Steve, the Bates sleeves are not the same as the Darton sleeves. I sent my LSJ from my06 to Bates Engineering and Ray did all of the work including the removal of the stock oil filter body. He also provides the block of plate which had the fitting for the remote oil cooler. Im not even sure that Bates is still in business or if he has retired.
I had no issues with any of the work that Bates did or with the parts that he supplied. Its been a while but Im sure I should be able to get the part numbers from the invoices. Ill also look for pictures but I cant say that I still have them because its been 7 years since I had that car.
I have seen the picture of the Bates sleeves next to the Darton sleeves and I preferred the Bates design. I know of 2 shops that looked at the sleeves and what needed to be done to install them and those shops bailed. Fortins chilliwack was one of the shops. Thats when I made the call to ship the block to California.
hmm, just looked up some pics of the bates sleeves, appears its still an open deck. i dont know how much of a fan i am of that design, it would allow the top of the sleeve to move around, and gasket sealing could become an issue. im kinda doubting they are still available, i havent seen mention of anyone getting anything from bates in years.
i know the machine shop i use could do whatever i need done, id almost rather just find someone who has done it. in the end its cheaper, even if i gotta ship a block across north america and back. i completely forgot about TJ performance, i was looking through his pics and i see he does both deck plates and a sort of closed deck sleeve. might have to talk to him.
Zzp still has girdled block option. It’s gen three based I’m sure there’s a reason they have run with that.
not sure if anyone has pushed one of these to the point where the cylinder wall failed. Gotta a be a few guys pushing into the mid to high 500whp range
A while back there was a few people who got there gen three machined to take a sleeve. I can’t remember how that worked out or if it became a common option.
At one point I recall @EXsoccer1921 wanting to go larger turbo than his s259 billet wheel, but I don't recall if he ever did go larger (he dyno'd near 600 iirc) and I'm not sure if he comes around the forum anymore either
At one point I recall @EXsoccer1921 wanting to go larger turbo than his s259 billet wheel, but I don't recall if he ever did go larger (he dyno'd near 600 iirc) and I'm not sure if he comes around the forum anymore either
Last I spoke with him about his car, he was having issues with the VSS sensor getting chewed up or not getting a reading. I don't know that the car has moved since then. It's been years since I've seen him put an update about it on Facebook.
Late to the party here..... Bates is still alive and kicking. He runs his shop out of his back yard here in Socal. But its almost like you have to know someone that knows him for him to do any work. He did a block for me a couple years ago that has yet to be run. Its currently going to be built as a big boost (around 40psi) monster for a customer of mine.
@Sharkey if you end up wanting to go the Bates route, let me know and I can set up the whole deal for you since I have known him for +15 years.
after discussing it with trevor jolley (tj performance) he recommended either darton sleeves or ductile iron "drop in" sleeves and closed decking. he says he has never had any issues with cooling issues or hot spots with the darton sleeves that you continually read about when looking up info on sleeving an ecotec. im still leaning towards closed decking, i think it will be more than strong enough for what im doing, but i havent decided 100% yet.
i did pick up a core, i found a saab b207r with 100k km for $200. was almost a shame to tear it apart and throw half of it away with how mint it was lol. already started the mods, ive removed the filter housing, deburred the whole block and have it ready to weld the oil fittings on.
so while we are on the topic of making the block stronger, does anyone have any info on main and head studs?
while im not 100% sure my build requires main studs, the thought of having to spend almost $300 (canadian dollars) in stock fasteners to bolt the main girdle on makes me cringe. worse is if i ever gotta take it off and pay that money again. ottp sells a main stud kit, however its been out of stock for some time now. ive found some part numbers for the individual pieces from arp (arp's internal part numbers that arent in the catalog), but i have no info about what their intended use is, thus have no idea what arp stud kit to look at. the numbers i got are as follows
AM6.900-1LUGB - Stud
300-8344 12 point nut
200-8590 washer
headstuds, while it seems obvious to buy the kit every ecotec gets put in it, im concerned about their limitations. gm racing went to the 1/2" h11 headstuds at the 600hp mark, i saw mention in a couple other threads about heads lifting north of 650hp with the arp off the shelf stud kit. again, ive seen mention of arp L19 studs (sky888 used them in his twin turbo sky) and an off the shelf arp custom aged 625+ stud. thing is, no part numbers, no mention of intended applications, etc.
I have had the Dartons in for 5 years now. They're working great. Do have the head lifting issue after tuning the car just under 600 whp on pump gas with the arps'. Like yourself I'm in Canada where e85 is not an option. Interested to see people input on head studs.
after talking with a couple people apparently honda B series head studs work in the ecotec. arp doesnt have anything but the basic arp2000 studs for a B series, however ive found several shops selling their own arp kits in both L-19 and custom age 625+. im still unsure what to go with, im leaning towards spending the extra on the 625+ because of the corrosion issues with the L-19s.
despite being in canada i do have ethanol available to me. one place mixes their own on site and its always exactly 85% ethanol. the other station thats closer is flex fuel, its almost always 62% ethanol. i run this mostly because its closer to me.
after talking with a couple people apparently honda B series head studs work in the ecotec. arp doesnt have anything but the basic arp2000 studs for a B series, however ive found several shops selling their own arp kits in both L-19 and custom age 625+. im still unsure what to go with, im leaning towards spending the extra on the 625+ because of the corrosion issues with the L-19s.
despite being in canada i do have ethanol available to me. one place mixes their own on site and its always exactly 85% ethanol. the other station thats closer is flex fuel, its almost always 62% ethanol. i run this mostly because its closer to me.
I like the sounds of the mixed E85, where is this location?
Keep me posted on where you get your studs as I'll most likely go the same route.
itll be a while, ive put this motor build on the back burner for now. ive been trying to sort out a weak point in my drivetrain (the stub axles). there are no off the shelf upgrade, ive spent nearly 2 months designing and building my prototype, its finally in the car but i now need to machine everything for the other side. as excited as i was to build this motor this winter there isnt much point in trying to make more power if im breaking drivetrain parts as it is.
ive got some other projects on the car that will take up the rest of my winter, but ill start back on the motor build in a few months
This is of interest the heads lifting around the 600 mark with the run of the mill ARP studs. I may need to go to the upgraded studs, but I may be better off taking a wait and see approach. Changing studs even one at a time without doing the gasket also may be asking for trouble. I wonder if over torqueing the ( regular ARP ) studs slightly may have any positive effects? Would love to here some thoughts on that, and a part number on what people are using for the L-19.
"headstuds, while it seems obvious to buy the kit every ecotec gets put in it, im concerned about their limitations. gm racing went to the 1/2" h11 headstuds at the 600hp mark, i saw mention in a couple other threads about heads lifting north of 650hp with the arp off the shelf stud kit. again, ive seen mention of arp L19 studs (sky888 used them in his twin turbo sky) and an off the shelf arp custom aged 625+ stud. thing is, no part numbers, no mention of intended applications, etc."
i wouldnt try replacing studs one at a time, i know some people do it on some engines but it doesnt always end well. either pull the head and change the gasket or keep running it till it pushes the gasket out.
over torquing head studs is another hit and miss thing. really it depends on if the fastener is still below its maximum stretch. if the bolt is stretched to its max to where it will return back to its original length when loosened then you gain nothing by over tightening, the clamping load doesnt increase and you end up stretching the studs.
the l-19 studs people are using are for honda B series. as best i can tell they would be these from speedfactory https://www.speedfactoryracing.net/p...a-b-k-series-1 . arp makes them as a private label item for a couple different companies. imo a better option is the 625+ studs from 4piston https://4pistonracing.com/products/6...uty-head-studs keep in mind ive been told honda b series, these are the most common ones i can find. i also have no idea why one company lists b and k series studs being the same and another site says they are different.
Those 4 piston studs you posted were the exact ones I was eyeing, but was also confused about the b/k series thing.
I did over torque my arps' to the tune of +5 lbs but yielded no different results. My head gasket suffered total failure the last day out at the 1/4 mile so i'll be pulling and most likely decking head anyways. So now would be the time to upgrade the studs.
Not entirely sure what power I'm at ATM. I dynoed 581whp on a mustang dyno but I was limited by fueling at the time. Have since fixed the problem but haven't dynoed again. My best pass has been 12.4 @121mph but tbh I drive like **** lol. Only been to track 3 times since I got slicks, once the timing system at the track broke so I only got 1 timed pass, once the track wasn't prepped because SIR is cheap AF and the third time the car went pop. Been having problems with 2-3 shift on f40 which is sounding like common issue so not sure what to do about that. Tough to find time to do these things with baby girl at home. So its been a bit of a struggle to make time for racing. This winter I'd like to fix HG, install NLS and tweak a few other minor issues the car has been having.
Last edited by Flatgod; 12-24-2022 at 12:28 PM.
Reason: wrong data
06-27-2022, 02:15 AM
