Harness use without harness bar?
01-31-2013, 10:04 AM
#1
Harness use without harness bar?
Is it possible to run a set of harnesses without having a harness bar? I know there are attachment points in the rear for a baby carrier/booster seat, would it be possible to hinge the upper 2 belts to those? They should be strong enough that if a person was to get into an accident they shouldn't break because that's what they were designed for, restraining a baby carrier or booster seat during impact. The reason I'm not looking to add a harness bar is the cost obviously, and I only really want the harnesses for track days (both road and autox to help keep me from sliding around so much) and maybe a car show or two just to show off. If I don't have a harness bar, I can just easily remove the harnesses for the other 99% of the time that I'm just DD'ing the car.
01-31-2013, 10:41 AM
#6
You're talking about the two hook points buried in the seats, right? My cobalt is in storage right now so I'm just going off memory, but there should be an anchor point on each side of the upper deck by the headrests, and there are 2 hooks/anchor points buried in each of the seats where the seat bottom meets the backrest.
01-31-2013, 10:46 AM
#8
The belts have to be mounted at a certain heights and angles relative to your body to work properly. You are also probably much larger and heavier than a small child in a babyseat.
I'm sure your harness and racing type both have their own similar requirements.
http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ct...t/viewall.html
I'm sure your harness and racing type both have their own similar requirements.
http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ct...t/viewall.html
Last edited by emiller; 01-31-2013 at 10:54 AM.
01-31-2013, 11:04 AM
#9
The belts have to be mounted at a certain heights and angles relative to your body to work properly. You are also probably much larger and heavier than a small child in a babyseat.
I'm sure your harness and racing type both have their own similar requirements.
Racing Seat and Harness Installation - Car Racing Safety Tech - Anchor In
I'm sure your harness and racing type both have their own similar requirements.
Racing Seat and Harness Installation - Car Racing Safety Tech - Anchor In
In the grand scheme of things, I just want them to help hold me side to side tighter, because harnesses can be tightened where the stock seatbelt is loose (retractable) until it locks itself during an impact. If I were to go this route, I think my plan would be to still wear the stock seat belt as well as the harness because the stock belt is guaranteed to hold up during an accident. It sounds like a lot of belts but it's better to be safe than sorry.
01-31-2013, 11:15 AM
#11
I don't think any tech guy would ever let you get away with spanning the belt strap from the back package shelf to your front seat.
Nor would you want to. The stretch in a span that long would be pretty extreme. Wouldn't make me feel safe.
Nor would you want to. The stretch in a span that long would be pretty extreme. Wouldn't make me feel safe.
01-31-2013, 11:27 AM
#12
I see what you guys are saying, but how would say a Powell harness bar be any more legal?
In the grand scheme of things, I just want them to help hold me side to side tighter, because harnesses can be tightened where the stock seatbelt is loose (retractable) until it locks itself during an impact. If I were to go this route, I think my plan would be to still wear the stock seat belt as well as the harness because the stock belt is guaranteed to hold up during an accident. It sounds like a lot of belts but it's better to be safe than sorry.
In the grand scheme of things, I just want them to help hold me side to side tighter, because harnesses can be tightened where the stock seatbelt is loose (retractable) until it locks itself during an impact. If I were to go this route, I think my plan would be to still wear the stock seat belt as well as the harness because the stock belt is guaranteed to hold up during an accident. It sounds like a lot of belts but it's better to be safe than sorry.
01-31-2013, 11:36 AM
#13
Well, forget about attaching to the booster seat anchor points 
. Check this out:
Schroth Harness Guide and Harness Belt FAQ
Apparently Schroth makes a kit to attach to the rear belts.
. Check this out:Schroth Harness Guide and Harness Belt FAQ
Apparently Schroth makes a kit to attach to the rear belts.
01-31-2013, 11:43 AM
#14
emiller and sox fan are correct and it looks like you found the right web site for good information. Our harness bar will satisfy all regulations BUT
for racing or tracking your car you need ports in the seats for a 5 point harness and you cant do just one seat. You must do two seats.
you need pickup points for the lap belts and the submarine belts we make that for our R100 sparco seat brackets.
Our stuff is strong enough to handle stout loads in the event of impact. Some of the stuff I have seen aftermarket is pretty weak.
good luck. racing is not cheap
for racing or tracking your car you need ports in the seats for a 5 point harness and you cant do just one seat. You must do two seats.
you need pickup points for the lap belts and the submarine belts we make that for our R100 sparco seat brackets.
Our stuff is strong enough to handle stout loads in the event of impact. Some of the stuff I have seen aftermarket is pretty weak.
good luck. racing is not cheap
02-02-2013, 11:10 AM
#17
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You see the Schroth type harnesses all the time in autocross, not a safety issue IMO. For track days, I would never consider a four point harness without a sub belt, and I wouldn't run five or six points without an actual rollbar, especially with one piece seats. Harnesses with a harness bar are pointless outside of a parking lot. The stock seat belts with the stock seats are safer than a harness bar with harnesses in a rollover situation.
Last edited by Mark Aubele; 02-02-2013 at 02:03 PM.
02-02-2013, 12:39 PM
#18
You see the Schroth type harnesses all the time in autocross, not a safety issue IMO. For track days, I would never consider a four point harness without a sub belt, and I wouldn't run five or six points without an actual rollbar, especially with one piece seats. Harnesses with a harness bar are pointless outside of a parking lot. The stock seat belts with the stock seats are safer without a cage in a rollover situation.
bs.
02-02-2013, 01:19 PM
#19
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If I roll a car over, I would much prefer to not have my body held upright by one piece seats and harnesses as the roof is crushing my head. Harnesses and one piece seats should never be used without a rollbar (on a track, I have no issue for autocrossing), period. Now explain why the statement is BS? Because you sell harness bars?
02-02-2013, 01:31 PM
#20
Not at all. In fact, we dont sell harness bars much and I really dont care one way or the other if we sell them. They are well made, they are not cheap and they do the job they were designed to do. They do singnifantly improve the rigidity of the "B"pillar, and would certainly help stop the collapse of the b pillar at the top shoulder belt anchor point, when subjected to a vertical load in a roll over. The stiffness model certainly supports this point.
I do have a lot of experience with roll cages and wrecked cars, and can tell you that roof intrusion is a big issue in a roll over, and a roll cage minimizes that. So for you to say that "stock seats and seat belts are safer without a roll cage in a roll over " is a bs statement.
You have no data to back that up.
I have lots of wrecked race cars that show what a roll cage does, and if you think about it, stopping the roof from collapsing with a properly built SCCA spec roll cage is a very good thing. Why do you think roll cages are required for racing, and standards are written for their installation?
Go to the scrap yard and see how the roof collapses on a car without a cage.
Right.
Second thing is, the principle cause of death in car crashes is "ejection from the vehicle". That is, seat belts not being worn.
So you quite correctly point out that a race harness needs a sub belt.
I wonder why you would make that statement about roll cages and roll overs? Beats me.
I do have a lot of experience with roll cages and wrecked cars, and can tell you that roof intrusion is a big issue in a roll over, and a roll cage minimizes that. So for you to say that "stock seats and seat belts are safer without a roll cage in a roll over " is a bs statement.
You have no data to back that up.
I have lots of wrecked race cars that show what a roll cage does, and if you think about it, stopping the roof from collapsing with a properly built SCCA spec roll cage is a very good thing. Why do you think roll cages are required for racing, and standards are written for their installation?
Go to the scrap yard and see how the roof collapses on a car without a cage.
Right.
Second thing is, the principle cause of death in car crashes is "ejection from the vehicle". That is, seat belts not being worn.
So you quite correctly point out that a race harness needs a sub belt.
I wonder why you would make that statement about roll cages and roll overs? Beats me.
02-02-2013, 01:37 PM
#21
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Not at all. In fact, we dont sell harness bars much and I really dont care one way or the other if we sell them. They are well made, they are not cheap and they do the job they were designed to do. They do singnifantly improve the rigidity of the "B"pillar, and would certainly help stop the collapse of the b pillar at the top shoulder belt anchor point, when subjected to a vertical load in a roll over. The stiffness model certainly supports this point.
I do have a lot of experience with roll cages and wrecked cars, and can tell you that roof intrusion is a big issue in a roll over, and a roll cage minimizes that. So for you to say that "stock seats and seat belts are safer without a roll cage in a roll over " is a bs statement.
You have no data to back that up.
I have lots of wrecked race cars that show what a roll cage does, and if you think about it, stopping the roof from collapsing with a properly built SCCA spec roll cage is a very good thing. Why do you think roll cages are required for racing, and standards are written for their installation?
Go to the scrap yard and see how the roof collapses on a car without a cage.
Right.
Second thing is, the principle cause of death in car crashes is "ejection from the vehicle". That is, seat belts not being worn.
So you quite correctly point out that a race harness needs a sub belt.
I wonder why you would make that statement about roll cages and roll overs? Beats me.
I do have a lot of experience with roll cages and wrecked cars, and can tell you that roof intrusion is a big issue in a roll over, and a roll cage minimizes that. So for you to say that "stock seats and seat belts are safer without a roll cage in a roll over " is a bs statement.
You have no data to back that up.
I have lots of wrecked race cars that show what a roll cage does, and if you think about it, stopping the roof from collapsing with a properly built SCCA spec roll cage is a very good thing. Why do you think roll cages are required for racing, and standards are written for their installation?
Go to the scrap yard and see how the roof collapses on a car without a cage.
Right.
Second thing is, the principle cause of death in car crashes is "ejection from the vehicle". That is, seat belts not being worn.
So you quite correctly point out that a race harness needs a sub belt.
I wonder why you would make that statement about roll cages and roll overs? Beats me.
I was comparing stock seats and belts to one piece seats, a harness bar, and harnesses, which I think have no place on a track. I never compared stock equipment to a rollbar. Not sure how you came up with that.
You see the Schroth type harnesses all the time in autocross, not a safety issue IMO. For track days, I would never consider a four point harness without a sub belt, and I wouldn't run five or six points without an actual rollbar, especially with one piece seats. Harnesses with a harness bar are pointless outside of a parking lot. The stock seat belts with the stock seats are safer without a cage in a rollover situation.
02-02-2013, 01:48 PM
#23
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You see the Schroth type harnesses all the time in autocross, not a safety issue IMO. For track days, I would never consider a four point harness without a sub belt, and I wouldn't run five or six points without an actual rollbar, especially with one piece seats. Harnesses with a harness bar are pointless outside of a parking lot. The stock seat belts with the stock seats are safer without a cage than a harness bar with harnesses in a rollover situation.
Last edited by Mark Aubele; 02-02-2013 at 02:02 PM.
02-02-2013, 01:48 PM
#24
NASA who sanction most of the HPDE days around tracks in the USA require race style seats with race harness shoulder belt ports and a harness bar or roll cage . Both seats, driver and passenger. NASA will not allow cars with race harness and stock seats. They will not allow cars with race harness and race seats, and no harness bar or roll cage for attachment. They will alow stock seats and stock seat belts for HPDE days.
Harness bars are not approved for road racing competition. All sanctioning bodies require specific roll cages for road racing. HPDE track days are held to a different standard.
Your opinions are your own, but making a statement about safety as you have quoted, will lead to the response I made. Make sure you are clear in your statements if you did not mean what you said.
Harness bars are not approved for road racing competition. All sanctioning bodies require specific roll cages for road racing. HPDE track days are held to a different standard.
Your opinions are your own, but making a statement about safety as you have quoted, will lead to the response I made. Make sure you are clear in your statements if you did not mean what you said.
02-02-2013, 02:01 PM
#25
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NASA who sanction most of the HPDE days around tracks in the USA require race style seats with race harness shoulder belt ports and a harness bar or roll cage . Both seats, driver and passenger. NASA will not allow cars with race harness and stock seats. They will not allow cars with race harness and race seats, and no harness bar or roll cage for attachment. They will alow stock seats and stock seat belts for HPDE days.
Harness bars are not approved for road racing competition. All sanctioning bodies require specific roll cages for road racing. HPDE track days are held to a different standard.
Your opinions are your own, but making a statement about safety as you have quoted, will lead to the response I made. Make sure you are clear in your statements if you did not mean what you said.
Harness bars are not approved for road racing competition. All sanctioning bodies require specific roll cages for road racing. HPDE track days are held to a different standard.
Your opinions are your own, but making a statement about safety as you have quoted, will lead to the response I made. Make sure you are clear in your statements if you did not mean what you said.
And I edited my original post for clarity.