Twincharging was used on detroit Desils, I drove one and I must say it was a blast hearing the blower whine a second before the hiss of the turbo drowned otu the straight pipe exhaust then hisses loud enough to scare deer a quarter mile away. BUt yea when it broke down we sold that truck. Twinchargin is complex, yes. It is new and it has reliaility issues of course. THe benifets arent' that great. BUt if you were to make it in paralell like some t-t systems are on drag desils. (Dodge pickups wiht twins putting out nearly 80PSI) Then honestly all you have to do is think "hmm I'm putting 7lbs wiht the turbo and 18 lbs with the SC, so that's 25lbs of pressure" and you'd be right. Since your blower will be constantly putting a set ammount of boost into the engine all you have to do is adjust the turbo's waistgate to increase or decrease boost. A simple boost controler would be all it takes. But as said before complexity will kill you.


ALl in all I am interested on teh feasibilty of it on a small engine but I wouldnt' do it myself because it will cost money to set it up. Money I'd rather spend on a proven way to go faster.

 

I'm sorry but your 7 + 18 theory isn't correct.

No matter how much boost you're throwing at the supercharger, it's still only going to spin at a certain rate of speed because it's dependant of the crank shafts speed (ultimately). Throwing 7 pounds of compressed air into a supercharger that is mechanically only going to spin at a rate to push and create a certain amount of boost into your manifold. Throwing compressed air into the supercharger might help as far as bringing constant airflow into the supercharger but it won't increase your boost level that is actually entering your motor. Your supercharger is ultimately your restrictor and you just spent $3,000 (hypothetically) on a turbocharger setup that isn't doing you that much good.

Overall, either take the supercharger off or upgrade the pulley if you want some more power.

 

Just a note on this subject.

Twincharge has been around for years in Japan.

So no it's not new to the tuning world. Car Makers have been making twin charge cars for years we just never get to see any of them this side of the boarder.

 

Bah your right, I was thinking on supercharger first, then the Turbo. In which that case it would work just fine cause the turbo can spin freely to make more HP and you use the SC like a pull truck on a bon salt flats car to get a huge ass compressor spinning.

 

I don't understand how that would physically work...sorry, I'm just confussed.

 

i think he means using the supercharger to spool the turbo quicker. or something, lol.

 

I understand that but how would that physically work. Remember, the exhaust drives the turbo, the supercharger is belt driven and has to sit on top of your intake manifold. I don't know.

 

well... if the supercharger is forcing more air into the engine then wouldn't more exhaust come out? making it possible to spool a larger turbo faster? that sounds good in theory to me, but then i can't graps the turbo feeding the blower concept.

 

Well he's trying to say the total opposite of that.

And the whole idea of "the blower spools the bigger turbo" is just kind of a waste in my opinion. An average T3/T4 can support the power ranges of 350-400 HP without a problem...I spool that size turbo now fine, so what's the point of getting a huge turbo for? It's not like majority of us have built motors.

 

i know a guy who twin charged a sunfire.

killed his engine and clutch pretty fast but that thing ran like snot

 

Let me guess...

Blue Sunfire with Body kit? He's on the JBO right?

 

hah yea but i know him off beyond.ca

 

I think his name is Josh...

Yeah I remember when he was starting that setup, I never said anything to him but man what a pointless thing to do in all reality.

 

that's a very good point. i just want a twincharged kit to come out so that i can have a turbo without feeling like buying this car was useless by taking off the blower.

 

Well you could always sell your S/C and make a profit lol

but in seriousness, there is no real reason to stay twin charged.

 

The point of twincharging is to run a huge ass turbo with no lag, something like a 76 trim. Its not to get more horsepower or anything like that. Its to achive your power at a faster rate. By buddies 2.2eco with a 65 trim T3/T4 hybrid only fully spools at 3500-3750RPM, thats half your gear right there. Think of how long a 2.0L engine would take to fully spool a T4 76 trim turbo. Now imagine spinning that T4 76 trim with no lag what so ever, feels good right. Thats what twincharging is about.

As for Josh, he should have done it the right way and build his engine. He tried twincharging a stock LD9 (not gm's greatest motor) what else do you expect. It wasn't because it was twinchaged, he was just pushing crazy amounts of boost into an unbuild enigne. Would have happend whether it was twincharged or just turboed.

 

I get what you're trying to say but some of the things you're saying is skewed a bit...

Your friend shouldn't have that big of a turbo if he feels that it's not spooling fast enough for him. Fact is, a 65 Trim turbo on a stock 2.2 ecotec motor is just too big and not necessary. You're talking about a turbo that can provide enough CFM for 400+ HP but like you said, might take too long and make his powerband smaller.

Ok now...having a T4 76 Trim turbo is REALLY not neccessary to have, I don't care how fast you can spool it. You do realize how big that is right?

To get down to the nitty gritty...twin charging won't be doing what you expect it to do. Even if you could spool a bigger turbo, your supercharger is your restrictor...period. No matter how much PSI of boost from your turbo you throw at it, the supercharger will spin at the same rate because it's belt driven.

Also, this idea of your supercharger making you be able to spin something as huge as a T4 is a bit stretched. First of all, our cylinder head ports are only so big...compared to other 4 cylinders, we are on the small side. Fact is, you will have trouble spooling something as big as a T4 because of this. You'll have a stronger exhaust velocity (energy) but the amount of exhaust gasses coming out at one time isn't that great to where you think you will spin something so big so fast. No matter what, you'll need RPMs to build boost with a supercharger or a turbo.

Listen, if you guys are worried about turbo lag, match the turbo to the motor properly. Bigger isn't always better. Even if you could have a T4 turbo on your motor, how much horsepower are you seriously looking to run? You're talking about a turbo that can support up to 600+ HP when majority of the members here won't even reach the 350 WHP mark...plainly, it's over doing things. It's kind of like buying a Corvette when you just need a grocery getter.

 

i just have 1 thing to say...... Do any of you think hahn would be wasting their time with a twin charge system if it was not going to net that much of a gain? come on? by the way the have already released an announcement that they hit the 400 hp mark with the twincharge system.

 

Hahn did it for their SEMA car

As far as it going through production, didn't hear it was. They must have done something cause 400 HP on a stock LSJ motor doesn't sound right to me.

 

NJHK is right, a smaller turbo would realistically create a much more effective turbo setup. no doubt there will still be lag, but it wont be as drastic.

a T3 would work out nicely, T4 is WWAAAYY to big lol

 

so I see you've gotten into the good crack, bring some to the house party

 

Lag might not even be an issue.

Also, I want to say that some people talk about lag but I think they are confussing lag with other things. Building boost and lag are 2 different things. Lag usually is a delay in boost reaction...example, if you have a huge turbo on and you're set at 10 psi and it stays at 3 psi for majority of the powerband then all of a sudden shoots up to 10. Building boost is different...you can see a steady climb in boost.

I think people expect more from turbochargers when superchargers typically build boost as fast as or slower than turbochargers (assuming the turbocharger is properly matched to the motor).

Just thought i'd throw that out there.

 

Don't get me wrong a t4 is a bit big, but also for some people 350whp is not going to cut it. There a few people on the site, and my-self will be one of them, building thier engines to hold over the 450hp the stock engine is supposed to handle. As long as everything go to plan my car will hopefully be in the garage for the winter getting the enigne torn apart and rebuilt. To hit 500+ hp will be tough, either twincharging or mounting a new blower (twin screw) would be sufficent but both will be expensive.

Now i know the question of for that much hp why not buy something faster out of the box, and that is a possibility but its also taking the easy way out, and for some building the under dog is more fun.

NJHK i am not exactly arguing with you, i def see you point. For people that will be satisfied with 350 then yes twincharging will be for show, but to hit the excessive amounts of power it would be a good option.

 

There are still hybrid turbos out there (T3/T4) that are big enough to support over 400 HP.

 

what trim would you need to support 500+ hp? you would still need a rather large one, and with that large trim comes the lag. 3500 RPM in rality is not that long, its maybe a half a second when your driving. But when you at the track a half a second could be half a car lenght and the drifference between winning and losing. That might sound cheesy but i hate to lose.

Also, the difference in price between going all turbo and twincharge would be minimal. Both set ups would require all the basics, lines, pipes, ect, the turbo, intercooer all the goodies, but with turbo you will have to either a) gut the s/c to act as an intake manifold (popualar option with the cobra guys) or b) get an actual intake manifold. So if the cost is going to be the same, why not twincharged?

Also by the way, if i DO decide to go twincharge, it will be a custom job, and not some prefabed hahn kit that will push out minimal power.