For discussion of all things Powell!!
04-18-2013, 07:01 PM
#53
I have one car out in northern Alberta to check been through a winter out there; they are not made of Delrin, and the material I do use is commonly used in Snowmobiles, and has very good temperature resistance. The first sets I am using, but Wangspeed and Halfcent were not satisified as the internal spherical was not doing the job, so I have revised them completely but my set and Amanda's Alberta set are still rocking no problem/.
BUT
my Redline is garaged all winter lol not a fair test. Amanda's is by far the toughest life for a car...
BUT
my Redline is garaged all winter lol not a fair test. Amanda's is by far the toughest life for a car...
04-18-2013, 07:04 PM
#54
Ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I knew the one on the show didnt have the H62, and I thought it was just a version of what was built for the actual Time Attack event.
Thanks for the pictures to. Time Attack is the car that has inspired me to build my engine. Ever since I picked up my H62, I have been piece by piece trying to build my engine to Time Attack spec.
I have most of the GMR goodies, but need the GMR head to be complete.
Thanks for the pictures to. Time Attack is the car that has inspired me to build my engine. Ever since I picked up my H62, I have been piece by piece trying to build my engine to Time Attack spec.
I have most of the GMR goodies, but need the GMR head to be complete.
04-18-2013, 07:15 PM
#55
From the Powell race shop ; the next mod.Advanced PCV control.
Its a PCV revision to attempt fixing the DI coking problem
There will be two versions; one for LNF Cobalts and one for LSJ. The mounting brackets and hose lengths will be different between LNF and LSJ; the HHR SS is the same as the Cobalt SS . The install procedure has a choice of tapping into the existing OEM PCV hose, or removing it and installing a different fitting in the rocker cover.The LSJ DOES NOT HAVE A COKING ISSUE its not a DI engine, but the LSJ PCV is a two way system and is not very effective and some S/C cars pop dipsticks out as the crank case pressure builds up at high revs.
BUY IT BUT DONT FORGET US...
One thing about this, the way we sell it will be different from the way most vendors sell things. Not to drive everyone crazy about it, simply understand that I want you to keep track and feedback to us, how your car is now, and how it is after time with the PCV upgrade you got from Powell raceshop. It kinda makes our customers a sort of a development test fleet. The engineering in this mod is sound, the ideas have good science, logically it should work, and the execution is well made, not cheap.
But we need to see how it works, as we have only limited experience that says "yup it looks like its working." Normally if I were working for a manufacturer, it would go in a durability test fleet that works 24/7 on a specific driving cycle routine , to get long term view of what is going on in a field test.
SO HOW WILL THIS UPGRADE WORK FOR YOU?
Please understand that for the LNF group, there is a WORLD WIDE issue with most every direct injection gasoline engine with inlet valve coking. Basically, excess oil in the PCV system ends up being deposited on the inlet valves, and with DI unlike port injection, there is no “washing” of the inlet valves with a fuel air charge.
There is no one single solution, although we have found good gains with the PCV upgrade so far. There are other important things to consider. The suggested changes for your car include:
• using low ash engine oil
• change in your driving routine, avoiding low rev/high boost driving.
• always use tier one gasoline
• always use 93 octane or better
• Some of our customers and friends have fresh clean valves in their cars thanks to warranty, and if not, a borescope snapshot of what they look like
For the record, proper installation of any catch can or PCV upgrade is important. A catchcan on the fresh air side is silly.
For the LNF, the OEM system has:
• On the fresh air side running post filter and pre turbo impeller; a check valve in the hose (thats the orifice) and it lets air in to the engine. This inlet air path goes directly to the base of the engine and is sealed from the upper cylinder head.
• There is another vent route out through the head into the inlet manifold. There is a check valve in the inlet manifold vent path, so the engine on vacuum ( off boost) can breathe fumes into the inlet manifold. The check valve there closes the moment the inlet is not pulling vacuum.
• There is a vent tube with an internal orifice on the dirty side, it vents to the turbo on the intake side.
• There is a “floor” in the dirty side route in the rocker cover with horizontal seperators
Catch cans without a seperator in two chambers really just become an accumulator of oil.
The idea is for the oil laden air on the dirty side to pass through the media ( or spill plates) so the air can leave the oil behind and then be sent on to the original routing.
Then the question is, what to do with the accumulated oil? it needs a place to go, and draining it after every track session or every week on the street onto your driveway or into a plastic bottle is not a good way to do it.
• I have a way and it makes the system better, while preserving the stock PCV operation which is very important.
If you vent the pcv to atmosphere with a filter like a hot rod vent cap, all bets are off and the pcv system will not work at all as intended
PCV FUNCTION
The pcv orifice sizes (there is more than one ) are chosen to keep the crankcase pressure negative by a small amount under all operating conditions.
Under light load, the turbo inlet venturi effect is just enough to cause a depression and pull air through the crankcase from the fresh clean air duct tube. The check valve becomes an “orifice” to control depression.
Under high load where the piston blow-by becomes significant, the fresh passage is stopped with a check valve. This is to prevent back flow. The venturi effect of the turbocharger inlet is sufficient to pull in 100% of the piston blow by, plus pull the crankcase pressure 2 to 3 kPa . negative as calibrated in balance with the fresh air check valve.
Crankcase pressure should be reasonably uniform. Draining the separated oil back into the crankcase in a similar manner to the turbo oil drain was required. We took care to make a return to avoid crank oil whip and place the drain back oil in a relatively undisturbed location. This was not easy, as we are only talking a few kPa delta to keep flows going in the right direction.
COKING
Where it starts to fall apart , is when the gradual build up of coked oil on the inlet valves starts to inhibit proper engine operation, and it becomes a circle jerk; the more build up the more oil gets kicked through the pcv, the more oil, the more build up etc.
Also if there is an aftermarket tune,(few are very good in my opinion) and there is a lot more fuel, timing and combustion pressure being thrown at the motor, it is possible that the piston rings and ring lands and skirts will wear really fast and then blowby (pressure in the crankcase) becomes so great the pcv system just cant deal with it.
No one thing will fix this issue entirely: driving cycles, fuel quality and octane, low ash engine oil are all important additional factors to consider.
The driving cycle.
The driving cycle I refer to, is to avoid low rev high boost situations , extended low rev cruising and short 1-3 mile start /stop / park driving. Add long idling time in winter as well; the driving cycles may contribute to low inlet valve temperature.
All these things I have listed can influence di valve coking in this engine. A techron fuel additive may help if tier 1 gasoline is not always available.
THE SEPERATOR:
This includes a check valve, and different hose layout with engine drain back. It is a purpose built product designed for di diesel engines. This work up is designed to improve the performance of the pcv system while protecting the venting from over stock boost situations.
I believe that there is nothing else like this in the aftermarket for Cobalts, currently. We are overbuilding it with different hose material and connectors, but making it plug and play with brackets. The main thing is trouble free performance, thats the goal. No bling for sure.
THE COST
Is 350 dollars, + shipping. It comes with mounting brackets, hardware and made up lines. Depending on the car, no drilling may be required.
current LNF
Our first prototype
The second
The final location for LNF:
OTHER MODELS:
The Kappa (Solstice/Sky Turbo) I am not sure about the location; Ideally you want it high, to assist in the venting work you want it to do. Around the battery area perhaps, and there is some room by the bulkhead to the center of the car; there is also a blind cavity that I could look at.
This looks about right.
HHR SS has an identical install to the LNF SS
THE INSTALL:
Let me see.....
Removing the dipstick and replacing it, and removing the pcv hose from the turbo are the toughest parts of the job.
30 mins - one hour
.
I have experimented with placement on the Kappa.
The problem is , the Kappa has an engine cover, and at least one line is going to 4 ft long. I have pretty much settled on this location, the outlet can be rotated by lifting the top and rotating it, so thats not an issue. The hood will just touch in this location so may move it forward and build it off the fuse box mounting bracket, which is very solid. The pcv lines will be short the oil return long but that doesnt matter much. The important thing is to maintain the OEM intended vacuum levels in the PCV operation.
The LSJ
This works well, this is the first install on a Cobalt. The Redline is mounted on the inner fender well. The dipstick install on an LSJ? HORRIBLE! Remove supercharger, alternator, inlet manifold then remove and replace dipstick. WOW! Turbo LNF guys sure have it easy!! Other than that, the LSJ system works very well, the PCV on the LSJ needs help....
The Redline install is different, dont have a funky wwaf bottle on the passenger side
Real world operating conditions and results
I was really pleased how well Loki's prototype worked in testing, I should have taken pictures, the vented air out was 100% clean. Which is what we intended, of course. Always nice when a plan comes together.
My thanks to Wangspeed (Warren) the initiator and track meister, and Loki ( Victor) the wheelman at TOTD v.03 ( a 2000 mile three day test , Canada to the Dragon and back) for their field testing
Mocking up the LSJ.
An LSJ is more of a challenge; it uses one hose out and in, to the inlet tube between the maf and the throttle body, so its all metered air.
I don’t have an issue with my supercharged 320 whp LSJ with excess crankcase pressure and the dip stick popping out, but I do have oil in the inlet manifold. I have to measure and see what depression we can get without going to a vacuum pump.
The problem with folks modifying their cars on the LSJ, well the pcv on the LSJ is not perfect, to begin with. Then folks plug existing ports and do big vent filters out of the rocker cover cap and such.
Our current LSJ system compliments the stock system and in the case of modified cars, will restore the function of the stock PCV as well as capture excess oil , separate, filter, and return it to the engine.
Paintballer asked: Hi I know your catch setup(pcv system one) only fits on stock turbos and was wondering what is needed to get one of these to fit on a precision turbo. Thank you.
I replied:
our system works with the required fittings on any engine LSJ, turbo ,s.c, LNF ETC.
Todd (BLT) runs one on a 256... all you need is a fitting screwed into the inlet hose as close as you can to the impeller... and let me know so I can run the fitting lengths into the order.
LNF mount to a bracket attached to the head. LSJ mount to the strut or the inner fender passenger side or a bracket off the rad tie bar, depending on Redline. LSJ s/c LSJ turbo etc. You tell me what you got we develop the adaptation to the kit. If you dont have a pcv vent into the inlet manifold but have a plug, we can provide a fitting to draw a line from their to the IN side of the seperator with a dash 6 Run T fitting.
LINKS:
Di COKING
New DI Engines -- Excessive Carbon Buildup ?? - Page 8 - MBWorld.org Forums
REVIEW: Cleaning of intake valves with BMW walnut shell blasting tool - BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum - E90Post.com
HowStuffWorks "How does a positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) system work?"
Its a PCV revision to attempt fixing the DI coking problem
There will be two versions; one for LNF Cobalts and one for LSJ. The mounting brackets and hose lengths will be different between LNF and LSJ; the HHR SS is the same as the Cobalt SS . The install procedure has a choice of tapping into the existing OEM PCV hose, or removing it and installing a different fitting in the rocker cover.The LSJ DOES NOT HAVE A COKING ISSUE its not a DI engine, but the LSJ PCV is a two way system and is not very effective and some S/C cars pop dipsticks out as the crank case pressure builds up at high revs.
BUY IT BUT DONT FORGET US...
One thing about this, the way we sell it will be different from the way most vendors sell things. Not to drive everyone crazy about it, simply understand that I want you to keep track and feedback to us, how your car is now, and how it is after time with the PCV upgrade you got from Powell raceshop. It kinda makes our customers a sort of a development test fleet. The engineering in this mod is sound, the ideas have good science, logically it should work, and the execution is well made, not cheap.
But we need to see how it works, as we have only limited experience that says "yup it looks like its working." Normally if I were working for a manufacturer, it would go in a durability test fleet that works 24/7 on a specific driving cycle routine , to get long term view of what is going on in a field test.
SO HOW WILL THIS UPGRADE WORK FOR YOU?
Please understand that for the LNF group, there is a WORLD WIDE issue with most every direct injection gasoline engine with inlet valve coking. Basically, excess oil in the PCV system ends up being deposited on the inlet valves, and with DI unlike port injection, there is no “washing” of the inlet valves with a fuel air charge.
There is no one single solution, although we have found good gains with the PCV upgrade so far. There are other important things to consider. The suggested changes for your car include:
• using low ash engine oil
• change in your driving routine, avoiding low rev/high boost driving.
• always use tier one gasoline
• always use 93 octane or better
• Some of our customers and friends have fresh clean valves in their cars thanks to warranty, and if not, a borescope snapshot of what they look like
For the record, proper installation of any catch can or PCV upgrade is important. A catchcan on the fresh air side is silly.
For the LNF, the OEM system has:
• On the fresh air side running post filter and pre turbo impeller; a check valve in the hose (thats the orifice) and it lets air in to the engine. This inlet air path goes directly to the base of the engine and is sealed from the upper cylinder head.
• There is another vent route out through the head into the inlet manifold. There is a check valve in the inlet manifold vent path, so the engine on vacuum ( off boost) can breathe fumes into the inlet manifold. The check valve there closes the moment the inlet is not pulling vacuum.
• There is a vent tube with an internal orifice on the dirty side, it vents to the turbo on the intake side.
• There is a “floor” in the dirty side route in the rocker cover with horizontal seperators
Catch cans without a seperator in two chambers really just become an accumulator of oil.
The idea is for the oil laden air on the dirty side to pass through the media ( or spill plates) so the air can leave the oil behind and then be sent on to the original routing.
Then the question is, what to do with the accumulated oil? it needs a place to go, and draining it after every track session or every week on the street onto your driveway or into a plastic bottle is not a good way to do it.
• I have a way and it makes the system better, while preserving the stock PCV operation which is very important.
If you vent the pcv to atmosphere with a filter like a hot rod vent cap, all bets are off and the pcv system will not work at all as intended
PCV FUNCTION
The pcv orifice sizes (there is more than one ) are chosen to keep the crankcase pressure negative by a small amount under all operating conditions.
Under light load, the turbo inlet venturi effect is just enough to cause a depression and pull air through the crankcase from the fresh clean air duct tube. The check valve becomes an “orifice” to control depression.
Under high load where the piston blow-by becomes significant, the fresh passage is stopped with a check valve. This is to prevent back flow. The venturi effect of the turbocharger inlet is sufficient to pull in 100% of the piston blow by, plus pull the crankcase pressure 2 to 3 kPa . negative as calibrated in balance with the fresh air check valve.
Crankcase pressure should be reasonably uniform. Draining the separated oil back into the crankcase in a similar manner to the turbo oil drain was required. We took care to make a return to avoid crank oil whip and place the drain back oil in a relatively undisturbed location. This was not easy, as we are only talking a few kPa delta to keep flows going in the right direction.
COKING
Where it starts to fall apart , is when the gradual build up of coked oil on the inlet valves starts to inhibit proper engine operation, and it becomes a circle jerk; the more build up the more oil gets kicked through the pcv, the more oil, the more build up etc.
Also if there is an aftermarket tune,(few are very good in my opinion) and there is a lot more fuel, timing and combustion pressure being thrown at the motor, it is possible that the piston rings and ring lands and skirts will wear really fast and then blowby (pressure in the crankcase) becomes so great the pcv system just cant deal with it.
No one thing will fix this issue entirely: driving cycles, fuel quality and octane, low ash engine oil are all important additional factors to consider.
The driving cycle.
The driving cycle I refer to, is to avoid low rev high boost situations , extended low rev cruising and short 1-3 mile start /stop / park driving. Add long idling time in winter as well; the driving cycles may contribute to low inlet valve temperature.
All these things I have listed can influence di valve coking in this engine. A techron fuel additive may help if tier 1 gasoline is not always available.
THE SEPERATOR:
This includes a check valve, and different hose layout with engine drain back. It is a purpose built product designed for di diesel engines. This work up is designed to improve the performance of the pcv system while protecting the venting from over stock boost situations.
I believe that there is nothing else like this in the aftermarket for Cobalts, currently. We are overbuilding it with different hose material and connectors, but making it plug and play with brackets. The main thing is trouble free performance, thats the goal. No bling for sure.
THE COST
Is 350 dollars, + shipping. It comes with mounting brackets, hardware and made up lines. Depending on the car, no drilling may be required.
current LNF
Our first prototype
The second
The final location for LNF:
OTHER MODELS:
The Kappa (Solstice/Sky Turbo) I am not sure about the location; Ideally you want it high, to assist in the venting work you want it to do. Around the battery area perhaps, and there is some room by the bulkhead to the center of the car; there is also a blind cavity that I could look at.
This looks about right.HHR SS has an identical install to the LNF SS
THE INSTALL:
Let me see.....
Removing the dipstick and replacing it, and removing the pcv hose from the turbo are the toughest parts of the job.
30 mins - one hour
.
I have experimented with placement on the Kappa.
The problem is , the Kappa has an engine cover, and at least one line is going to 4 ft long. I have pretty much settled on this location, the outlet can be rotated by lifting the top and rotating it, so thats not an issue. The hood will just touch in this location so may move it forward and build it off the fuse box mounting bracket, which is very solid. The pcv lines will be short the oil return long but that doesnt matter much. The important thing is to maintain the OEM intended vacuum levels in the PCV operation.
The LSJ
This works well, this is the first install on a Cobalt. The Redline is mounted on the inner fender well. The dipstick install on an LSJ? HORRIBLE! Remove supercharger, alternator, inlet manifold then remove and replace dipstick. WOW! Turbo LNF guys sure have it easy!! Other than that, the LSJ system works very well, the PCV on the LSJ needs help....
The Redline install is different, dont have a funky wwaf bottle on the passenger side
Real world operating conditions and results
I was really pleased how well Loki's prototype worked in testing, I should have taken pictures, the vented air out was 100% clean. Which is what we intended, of course. Always nice when a plan comes together.
My thanks to Wangspeed (Warren) the initiator and track meister, and Loki ( Victor) the wheelman at TOTD v.03 ( a 2000 mile three day test , Canada to the Dragon and back) for their field testing
Mocking up the LSJ.
An LSJ is more of a challenge; it uses one hose out and in, to the inlet tube between the maf and the throttle body, so its all metered air.
I don’t have an issue with my supercharged 320 whp LSJ with excess crankcase pressure and the dip stick popping out, but I do have oil in the inlet manifold. I have to measure and see what depression we can get without going to a vacuum pump.
The problem with folks modifying their cars on the LSJ, well the pcv on the LSJ is not perfect, to begin with. Then folks plug existing ports and do big vent filters out of the rocker cover cap and such.
Our current LSJ system compliments the stock system and in the case of modified cars, will restore the function of the stock PCV as well as capture excess oil , separate, filter, and return it to the engine.
Paintballer asked: Hi I know your catch setup(pcv system one) only fits on stock turbos and was wondering what is needed to get one of these to fit on a precision turbo. Thank you.
I replied:
our system works with the required fittings on any engine LSJ, turbo ,s.c, LNF ETC.
Todd (BLT) runs one on a 256... all you need is a fitting screwed into the inlet hose as close as you can to the impeller... and let me know so I can run the fitting lengths into the order.
LNF mount to a bracket attached to the head. LSJ mount to the strut or the inner fender passenger side or a bracket off the rad tie bar, depending on Redline. LSJ s/c LSJ turbo etc. You tell me what you got we develop the adaptation to the kit. If you dont have a pcv vent into the inlet manifold but have a plug, we can provide a fitting to draw a line from their to the IN side of the seperator with a dash 6 Run T fitting.
LINKS:
Di COKING
New DI Engines -- Excessive Carbon Buildup ?? - Page 8 - MBWorld.org Forums
REVIEW: Cleaning of intake valves with BMW walnut shell blasting tool - BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum - E90Post.com
HowStuffWorks "How does a positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) system work?"
Last edited by Powell Race Parts; 04-24-2013 at 06:11 PM.
04-18-2013, 07:33 PM
#57
PS. this thread is the kind of stuff that makes a vendor. showing all the testing, how parts have grown and developed. how parts have been thought up during the testing of other parts, etc. what zzp does with engins and testing, you're the suspension and race guy and i'd say no one is going to take that away. bravo
and yes, with this thread. i don't think you'll need to finish your website.
and yes, with this thread. i don't think you'll need to finish your website.
04-18-2013, 08:02 PM
#59
here is a glimpse of the mount along with the trans cooler. thats a neat deal. I like it so much I will probably put it on the Redline I had fogotten about that exercise in keeping transmissions alive lol
04-18-2013, 08:10 PM
#60
yeah i was just curious as to what they looked like. i like racecar parts. lol
i thought about a trans cooler. but i'm not driving an auto that's going to be heating itself up and cooking a converter on the line. and i don't road race. my trans gets beat for a few seconds then it sits for an hour or so.
i thought about a trans cooler. but i'm not driving an auto that's going to be heating itself up and cooking a converter on the line. and i don't road race. my trans gets beat for a few seconds then it sits for an hour or so.
04-18-2013, 08:35 PM
#61
yeah i was just curious as to what they looked like. i like racecar parts. lol
i thought about a trans cooler. but i'm not driving an auto that's going to be heating itself up and cooking a converter on the line. and i don't road race. my trans gets beat for a few seconds then it sits for an hour or so.
i thought about a trans cooler. but i'm not driving an auto that's going to be heating itself up and cooking a converter on the line. and i don't road race. my trans gets beat for a few seconds then it sits for an hour or so.
04-18-2013, 08:44 PM
#64
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Join Date: 03-06-13
Location: Philly
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has anyone ever replaced endlinks/bushings when putting on a rear sway bar... advantages? necessity? also, Phoenix Performance in Phoenixville PA had nothing but great things to say about your products. Spoke to Kurt for an hour about the rear sway bars and such. will order soon but want to do the suspension right so need some input from anyone willing about necessity of endlinks and bushings for front and rear. thanks everyone and sorry if i thread jacked!
04-18-2013, 08:54 PM
#65
Kurt at Joe's is a very good man, super hardworking. It was a pleasure to race with him
So Kurt knows the bizness
Front sway bar End links on a Cobalt are cheap. A metal rod, welded to a metal ring both ends. with a ball joint stud place in the ring and plastic injected into the ring. It works.
for a while
it rusts and wont come off, thats ugly.
The Chip Minich Powergrid, Inc. end links are allweather, spherical, last for ever and adjustble for bias. What more can you ask for? Also have an allen socket in the ball joint to make removal a breeze.
Our all weather spherical cabs are brilliant for 199 a pair last forever, install on the trailing location of the front lower control arm.
worth every dime.
torque the big trailing cab bolt to 145 ft lbs, if its not tight bad things happen
no more pictures tonite imma tired.....lol
So Kurt knows the bizness
Front sway bar End links on a Cobalt are cheap. A metal rod, welded to a metal ring both ends. with a ball joint stud place in the ring and plastic injected into the ring. It works.
for a while
it rusts and wont come off, thats ugly.
The Chip Minich Powergrid, Inc. end links are allweather, spherical, last for ever and adjustble for bias. What more can you ask for? Also have an allen socket in the ball joint to make removal a breeze.
Our all weather spherical cabs are brilliant for 199 a pair last forever, install on the trailing location of the front lower control arm.
worth every dime.
torque the big trailing cab bolt to 145 ft lbs, if its not tight bad things happen
no more pictures tonite imma tired.....lol
04-18-2013, 09:25 PM
#70
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Join Date: 03-06-13
Location: Philly
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04-18-2013, 09:28 PM
#72
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Join Date: 06-03-09
Location: Millville, NJ
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sounds great. I've been wanting to go up there for a long time, but my fiance doesn't have a passport and I've always heard the Canada side is much nicer.
04-18-2013, 09:31 PM
#73
I like Penna and south Jersey more than NF I go there two three times a month to pick up parts. The falls are neat, but after watching millions of gallons of water going over the falls, the magic is over. The town infrastructure is really run down...USA side is worse than the Canada side for some reason.