General Cobalt General Cobalt, Pursuit, and Ion talk. Post specific discussions in the forums below

What would be faster and why?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 05-06-2010, 12:15 PM
  #1  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BoostedG5's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-27-08
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What would be faster and why?

a car thats 300whp/370wtq OR a car thats 370whp/300wtq. Cars weigh exactly the same/drivers are exactly the same skill level/ both are FWD... ect.

I asked this question to a good handful of people and no one can give me a clear cut answer of what would be faster in a 1/4 mile and WHY. Any explanation would be greatl
Old 05-06-2010, 12:19 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
jmfselu's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-24-08
Location: new orleans
Posts: 1,045
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
good question, hopefully some smart people on here will have good answers....my guess would just be the torque car but no explanation so dont bash haha
Old 05-06-2010, 12:21 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
_UnLiMiTeD_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-15-08
Location: Maple Ridge, B.C Canada
Posts: 4,339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Both FWD? If so i go for the one with 370hp, enough torque to get out of the whole without blowing the tires off too much compared to the one with the extra torque.
Old 05-06-2010, 12:22 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MP Cobalt's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-02-07
Location: MP, PA (S of Pittsburgh)
Posts: 4,532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The car with more horse power would be faster. torque dies out and thats when horsepower keeps the car going. Higher speed and rpms = HP
Old 05-06-2010, 12:24 PM
  #5  
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Dart_SI's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-15-09
Location: kansas
Posts: 7,173
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
sub'd i believe the 370whp car would win because hondas like the 06+ civic si and rsx-s are fast as hell with 350whp and less than 300wtq.
Old 05-06-2010, 12:26 PM
  #6  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BoostedG5's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-27-08
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
awesome replys so far. Ill check back after work. Thanks all for the input!
Old 05-06-2010, 12:27 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
09blackonblack's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-15-09
Location: kansas
Posts: 1,692
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
the car with more torque will get out of the hole faster. but the car with more hp will maintain the power longer and pass the car by the finish line.
Old 05-06-2010, 12:30 PM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
SS4ME's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-13-05
Location: WI
Posts: 3,180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'll take the car with lower torque. It'll be easier to get off the line.
Old 05-06-2010, 05:12 PM
  #9  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BoostedG5's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-27-08
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bump for more input
Old 05-06-2010, 07:10 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
shawn672's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-07-07
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 1,847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
depends.
1/8 mile? more torque
1/4 mile? driver race probably
mile? more hp
Old 05-06-2010, 07:11 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
slowswap's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-25-08
Location: Depew, NY
Posts: 5,384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
To close to call IMO.
Old 05-06-2010, 07:13 PM
  #12  
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
elite_Cyborg's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-15-07
Location: Manhattan KS
Posts: 3,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Say if these were both cobalts.

You Generally Spend most 95% of the time going down the track above 5000rpms so Horsepower is faster.
Old 05-06-2010, 07:18 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
koch1ar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-28-08
Location: The Twip, MI
Posts: 3,891
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
think about this:

electric motors have 100% tq at 0 rpm. they are fast as **** off the line but their hp ratings are lower and will barely hurt quarter mile times.

because both of these are FWD, my money would be on the HP just because of wheel spin.

power bands would also affect the outcome
Old 05-06-2010, 08:18 PM
  #14  
Junior Member
 
SeizeThyGod's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-20-07
Location: Birmingham, Al
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
370 tq...because horsepower is just a number without torque...

think k20 (new si)
Old 05-06-2010, 08:32 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
rcorona8's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-17-09
Location: LA Area
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SeizeThyGod
370 tq...because horsepower is just a number without torque...

think k20 (new si)
I should know. I race a K20 Acura RSx-s and they are very fast cars for not having any damn torque.More HP and higher Rpm = win.......
Old 05-06-2010, 08:36 PM
  #16  
Senior Member
 
Cobalt_Daddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-19-09
Location: Windsor NS
Posts: 7,705
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
OK before listening to any other comments... read this explanation... it's fairly straight forward and will more than likely give you an idea...

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

horsepower is a unit of measurement given to show how much work is being done in a certain period of time.


in short.... Horsepower will win unless you are racing only 10 feet and have drag slicks...

As this post quotes and makes perfect sense... "It is better to make torque at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*."

hope that clears things up for ya buddy
Old 05-06-2010, 08:46 PM
  #17  
Senior Member
 
Greased's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-09-07
Location: minnesota
Posts: 1,619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Cobalt_Daddy
OK before listening to any other comments... read this explanation... it's fairly straight forward and will more than likely give you an idea...

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

horsepower is a unit of measurement given to show how much work is being done in a certain period of time.
best explanation i have ever read.
Old 05-06-2010, 10:05 PM
  #18  
Junior Member
 
SeizeThyGod's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-20-07
Location: Birmingham, Al
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rcorona8
I should know. I race a K20 Acura RSx-s and they are very fast cars for not having any damn torque.More HP and higher Rpm = win.......
not all the time

155 hp 155tq and i have put atleast half a car on them by the end of third (ive ran SEVERAL k20's)...
i shift i fall into my power band....they shift and they have to wait 3k rpm's for vtak! (i respect the hell out of those little motor's and honda's in general....if its modded right...

and short gear's>high shift point

















but then again the car im talking about has been fucked with from one end to the other....id love to use my ricer math and say the car has 200whp but i know it doesnt...at most car would probably dyno at like 160hp 160 tq...(i started ******* with cam's so i can add to my base whp number's (after i subtract for parasitic loss)
Old 05-06-2010, 11:43 PM
  #19  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BoostedG5's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-27-08
Location: Bethlehem, PA
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thank you everyone. All great feed back.
Old 05-07-2010, 12:24 AM
  #20  
Member
 
CurrentlyPissed's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-25-10
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Too many variables are missing.

What is the cars weight? Light, or heavy?

What is the gear ratios? Short or tall?

What is the distance you are going?

What kind of tire is the car running?

What kind of powerband are we talking?

What kind of motor? FI?

You can't just ask which would be faster with power numbers. If that were the case, every single turbo supra should be pushing low 9s. But they don't.

I will try and answer some of the questions for you.

If the car is light, the higher HP will win. HP is king on light cars, heavy its torque, you need the torque to get the car up to it's top speed the HP will maintain it if its enough (which it should be its how it works HP is just a mathematical equation from torque)

Gear ratios are also going to be brought into question. Reason being if you have too much torque you can run out of gear and not have the horsepower to carry the car and keep progressing speed.

Tires matter because if they are both running slicks, well the car with lower torque is going to have a harder time turning those slicks its rolling resistance and that is worse than weight.

If they are radials then the higher horsepower car. This is why if you wheel spin off a line, typically the car will also trap a higher MPH than it's average (within reason).

The FI question also comes in but has way too many variables that I dont feel like explaining right now. Detail your post and I will give you an more accurate answer.

So to try and anwer within reason.

If car #1 has 370hp/300tq and car #2 has 300hp/370tq, and are light vehicles, running radials going on a standard drag strip. Car #1 will win, car #2 will win off the line and have the better 60ft, but car #1 will have a higher 1/8th mile MPH, and 1/4 MPH because car #2 will plane off and not have the HP to carry it fast enough. (assuming these are standard cobalts)


Here is a good quote that will help you better understand.

Torque vs. Horsepower

If you've been around motorized vehicles for any length of time, you have probably been exposed to the great torque vs. power debate at some point. If not, it goes like this:

"Torque is what makes a bike accelerate, not power."

"Wrong."

Torque and power are inescapably linked by the fact that horsepower equals torque (in ft-pounds) times RPM divided by 5250, so people who talk as if they are independent are full of it. If you have a given torque curve for an engine, you have the horsepower curve also. Knowing how these two numbers work with each other lets you can poke through some of the BS you might read.

First, as usual, a few definitions.

Torque is a twisting force applied to an object, like a wheel or a crankshaft. Note that motion is not required for torque to exist! If you stand on a lug wrench that is on a frozen lug bolt, you are applying a torque to that bolt even though there may be no movement. For our purposes, we will consider that torque is measured in pounds-force feet (lbf-ft) meaning the equivalent of a given force, in pounds, acting on the end of a lever of length in feet. For example, standing with 180 pounds body weight on a lug wrench one foot long yields 180 lbf-ft of torque. A child of 90 pounds standing on a two-foot lug wrench applies the same torque.

Work is the application of force over a distance. Unfortunately, the units used are the same (pounds times feet) but we write this as ft-lb just to distinguish it. The real difference is that in this case, the "feet" part means feet of movement. If you push on a car with 100 pounds of force and maintain that for 30 feet, you have done 3000 ft-lb of work. An easier example is lifting a weight (in pounds) a given distance (in feet). If you use some sort of mechanical advantage, like a winch, you will do the same amount of work because by halving the effort required, you will have to double the distance through which you apply the force to achive the same objective.

Power is the application of work within a finite time. 550 ft-lb of work in one second is one horsepower.

So, let's first go through the numbers to get from torque to horsepower. Pushing with 87.5 pounds (force) on the end of our 1-foot lug wrench applies a torque of 87.5 lbf-ft. No motion yet, so no work and no power. But now let's say the lug bolt loosens slightly and starts to turn, but that same 87.5 pounds of force is needed to keep the wrench turning. For every revolution of the wrench, you are applying 87.5 pounds of force over a distance of (2 * pi * 1 foot) or 6.28 feet, the circumference of the circle that your hand is making, for a total of 550 ft-lb of work. It's only when this system is actually moving that work is being performed. From here, it's a quick step to say that if you work fast enough to turn that wrench once per second, then you are doing 550 ft-lb of work per second, which means you are applying one horsepower.

By the definitions we can see that HP is directly proportional to torque and RPM. "Directly proportional" means there may be a multiplyer involved, so let's find it using our example numbers, remembering that 1 revolution per second is 60 RPM:

torque * RPM * constant = hp

87.5 lbf-ft * 60 rev/min * X = 1 hp

X = 1 / (60 * 87.5) = 1/5250

torque * RPM * 1/5250 = hp

hp = (torque * RPM) / 5250

For internal combustion engines, torque is always given at a certain RPM because they can't generate any torque when they aren't moving. Once they are running fast enough to sustain their own operation, the force that they are exerting against a load can be measured, and the speed at which they are turning can be measured, so the torque (and therefore power) numbers become known.

So, if there is such a fixed relationship between torque and power, why do some people say that a certain engine has lots of power, but no torque? Remember that the connection between torque and power is rotational speed. A sportbike motor might generate 150hp at 14,000 RPM but the torque at that RPM is very small; about 53 ft-lbs. In comparison, a large-displacement twin might peak at 100 hp at 7000 RPM. The torque applied at the twin's 7000 rpm, 75 ft-lbs, is greater than the torque applied at the sport bike's 14,000 rpm but the sport bike makes up for it with a lot more engine speed and ends up with more horsepower.

The street, though, complicates things because the sport bike will probably not be ridden at 14,000 RPM. At 5000 RPM, the twin would likely have more power. This is an artificial handicap; the sport bike wasn't meant to be ridden at that speed since it generates its power by sending the RPM part of the equation sky-high. For street riding, the twin is easier to ride, less prone to stalling as you pull away from a light, and you get that satisfying "oomph" when you twist the throttle. But as the RPM increases, the twin runs out of breath and the race bike, although the torque is low and probably getting lower, continues to make more and more power until it hits its peak at 14000.

[Insert dyno charts for comparison showing less torque but more power for sportbikes at high RPM]

Engines are designed for their intended use. Our twins are designed to yield fairly high torque values at low RPM, because this makes them easy to ride in day-to-day life, and Harley-Davidsons have their torque concentrated even lower in the RPM range than BMWs do. Low-end torque is accomplished by several design traits, one being small valves and intake tubes which create high air velocity into the cylinder for good fuel mix at low speed.

Those effects tend to become a restriction at high RPM, which means that engines intended for high RPM end up with larger valves, larger air intakes, smaller cylinders and other things that let them continue to breathe when other engines start to gasp. Race bike engines have fairly small displacement, which limits the torque that can be produced at the crank. They apply that torque at much higher speeds to get high horsepower (and who can argue that those bikes don't accelerate quickly?).

To a lesser extent, BMW varies these techniques for different bikes. The GS series has narrower intake tubes to give a faster intake charge, giving better fuel/air mixing and better torque at low RPM. Since this becomes a bottleneck at higher RPM, the "power" engine in the RS and RT bikes have larger intake tubes. Swapping the GS tubes into an RS or RT is a common retrofit, as it makes the bike torquier at low RPM where most of us ride. Newer technology in cars, like variable valve timing and variable intake tract length, can give motors the best of both worlds by increasing torque at higher RPM without giving it up at low RPM. Incidentally, Honda has variable valve timing on a motorcycle now.

But to get back to the main point, it is power that moves our bikes down the road. Yes, torque provides the pushing force through the drivetrain, but it needs to happen at some given speed, and those two factors define "power."

Why does torque drop after a certain RPM?

Torque starts to decrease because the engine cannot breathe as well. Due to the speed, the cylinder does not fill with air as well. A designer can get around this problem with "tuned intake" which sets up a resonance to pack the cylinder with air, but it only happens at a certain RPM. The next evolution of design is to make a variable system which packs the cylinders with air at all RPM; this is usually called "variable tuned intake runners" or something like that and involves valves which open and close to create a different size for the airbox and manifold.

Why does power continue to increase after torque decreases?

Remember that the power is essentially the product of the RPM and the torque. At first, decrease in torque is small and is not enough to offset the increasing RPM, so the overall product still increases. Eventually the decrease in torque becomes large enough that it outweighs the increase in RPM and we see the power start to drop. Because of this, the power peak will always be after the torque peak.
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Extreme Dimensions
Pontiac G5 Appearance
5
10-28-2015 01:52 PM
Extreme Dimensions
Appearance
4
10-28-2015 01:52 PM
Hugger1975
War Stories
26
10-15-2015 03:28 PM
omarsiphone
Problems/Service/Maintenance
24
09-26-2015 08:59 PM
Killjoy32
2.0L LSJ Performance Tech
37
09-03-2005 04:23 PM



Quick Reply: What would be faster and why?



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:23 PM.