I have OTTP Spherical and delrin bushings (in boxes in my garage), and I'll take the LCAs to a local shop to get the CABs pressed out and the replacements pressed in - but I need some advice on getting the ball joints off the hubs without damaging them.

I don't really want to buy a $175 GM tool to remove the ball joints from the hubs because I don't plan to do this often (hopefully only once, however, I will buy if I have to) - so I'm asking about alternatives. I haven't found any place around here that will rent. Sears has a ball joint removal tool for less $$$ but I'm not sure how well it would work...

Are there less expensive alternatives to the GM spec'd tool?

I'm not an auto repair shop, I don't do this for a living. The factory repair manual warns about using anything other than the specified tool to avoid damage.

Any input would be helpful - particularly from any of the GM mechanics - before I remove the LCAs this weekend.

Thanks, Scott

 

i dont understand, take bolt out of ball joint/knuckle connection tap on top of LCA with rubber mallet to remove...no need for a fancy tool

 

I'm kinda with this line of thought, too.

What I have done in the past (with stuck ones that I mangled trying to separate) is just install new balljoints as "part of the job". Parts and labor might still be less than the cost of that tool. It's an idea, anyway, and you do end up with known good parts on there.

 

well im about to do the bushings and cabs too but my car is new, 8k miles soooo buying new ball joints? meh...id rather not.

 

you will realize how easy they come apart when you do it...no need for special tool

 

Duh... Sometimes the obvious...

Thanks for the easy answer (don't know why I didn't think of it -- too close perhaps -- stupid brain - maybe...).

I don't need new ball joints, I just wanted to make sure I won't need new ball joints after I upgrade the LCAs - but the comment about replacement costs at a shop probably being less than buying the tool is most likely true!

Thanks again, like I said: duh-h-h-h... I'll pass along my results with the new OTTP components.

Scott

 

ah so they'll just pop off and not be ruined. sorry never done this and the last time I did anything like this I was watching someone do it to my car over 8 years ago.

 

yes, may require a little wiggling and persuasion, but no damage will result

 

Cool!

Scott

 

Ball joints weren't a problem. All the OTTP LCA suspension parts installed (sphericals and delrin) - no where near as much suspension drop as there was with rubber. Makes it a bit tough to get struts on.

Seems to be OK so far. I'm driving it to work tomorrow - about 150 miles round trip.

Scott

 

subd for results

 

you get pics scott?

 

Sorry, no pics. I'll see what I can do this weekend.

Scott

 

how bad were the derlin bushings to install?

 

BAD!!! I thought I had honed out the aluminum enough to get them in (I pushed and used a rubber hammer -- thought that would be a good fit -- I was wrong). So when I tried to get the metal piece to go through the delrin -- it was too hard to push, it went part way in and then stuck -- I still thought it could be pressed through and work just fine (I was wrong again). So I went to a local shop and they pressed them in for me -- bad idea, they're so tight I had a heck of a time rotating them to get them mounted (lots of cursing and swearing) and I've got terrific stickion in those joints now -- almost like an old set of friction shocks.

So I think I'll have to have them pressed out (using a big press again) and then I'll have to (very, very carefully) drill out the hole in the delrin until I get a hand press fit for the metal pin. I think this will solve the problem.

Otherwise, I'm impressed with the overall handling improvements. I'm sure it will be better with I take care of the delrin parts (I'm sure it was my fault -- I didn't really expect to need to hog out the aluminum to the point when the delrin pieces would just slide in without any pressure).

The only thing I've noticed of importance is that the amount of drop for the LCA is less than it used to be, it just won't hand down as low -- I'm pretty sure the Spherical bushing limits this -- so it is pretty tough to get stock struts to mount easily. I tried to remount my stock struts with Eibach Pro-kit springs, and I couldn't push the strut up enough to get it back in. I switched to my Ground Control coilover setup with Konis and was able to push the strut up enough to get it remounted. Hm-m-m-m, I'll have to try again after I fix the delrin pieces...

Scott

 

I think I read in another thread that you usually run stx for auto-x. Do either of these bushings contain a greater % metal than the stockers or are they just a harder material? Would installing these bump you out of stx class? My understanding was you could use a harder bushing material as long as the amount of metal remains unchanged. Just curious really. I run DS currently, but I would probably be more competative in our stx class as our DS class is dominated by bimmers on koni's and Hoosiers. Thanks.

 

I was a little worried about getting the delrin bushings in. The OTTP description makes it sound not so easy. Now you're worrying me more.

John, got any tips, like what to use as a reamer?

 

These are primarily replacing the rubber with delrin -- very hard plastic, much harder material -- so there's no flex. And the metal shaft looks to be about the same diameter as stock, just better materials.

I would think it would be OK in STX and DSP.

Locally, DS is dominated by an Acura Integra Type R (Kinch Rindel), but there are a couple very fast Bimmers too.

Scott

Don't worry too much, OTTP states that you should hone out the aluminum to make it match factory specs so the delrin can to in easily. As I mentioned, I wasn't sure how 'easily' they meant. I now know that I should have ground away at the metal until the delrin just slips-in snugly -- finger tight -- I figured a rubber mallet was a good idea (not!). If you do that, there shouldn't be any problems.

Unfortunately, at this point, I'm going to have to drop the LCAs again, press out the steel shaft, and figure something out...

I do think the spherical bearings limit the LCA drop (which will make it harder to swap struts) but I'm pretty sure that this is part of the stiffening and therefore worthwhile. The factory rubber bushings are really weak! I just have to figure out a way to manage the strut swaps...

Scott

 

Well I read the posts and I find it surprising. If you wish details how to do it properly, go check out ************** I wont do it here.

But clearly dont confuse delrin, steel and aluminum. The OTTP site explains clearly that youneed to hand ream the delrin after install. The bushings are 100% on size, but distort when installed in arms as the arms are not machined to an acceptable tolerance. I explain the difference between hand ream and machine ream. There should be little or no friction.

I do many things myself. After a period of time I can say a power steering column swap takes me about an hour including a 30 minute re-learn for anti theft. I take the seat out. that takes 30seconds

I dont do other things. I dont machine this stuff a smart guy who is careful does it right and it costs do it right.,

I press out the stock bushings myself I had the machinist make me a tool it cost 25 bucks. You cant realistically press out the bushing yourself with out an on size exact size tool as the thin steel sleeve of the bushing collapses.

Pay a machines 25 bucks or so he will do all of this for you.

for sure there is a 5 degree difference in maximum spherical joint travel, it does not matter. As the all weather bushings are made by a vendor who has gone bankrupt this may change to a different part that will cost more money and have more travel. But it doesnt affect removing struts. I guess it takes practice to do it right. I have no difficulty removing struts with OTTP Cabs in place.

I would be pleased to help anyone who has trouble with installlation of any OTTP Part, but I urge you to consider what your skill sets are. Flatgod in Saskatchewan has a machinist dad. Wow no problem for him lol


If you want to learn how to manage strut swaps, talk to Maven. He knows. And youdont need a spring compressor....wow...

Of course once you install lowering springs life is much simpler


Good luck racing Scott.....p.s. read the OTTP Site Hand ream the delrin bushing NOT the arm. thanks

 

Actually I removed the LCAs from the car and took everything to a shop to press out/in the parts. Easier in the long run.

As you noted, I'll be honing out the delrin next. Reading the info on the OTTP site is not particularly informative: "...Due to production variation in control arm sizes, cross pin maybe a tight fit when installed with new delrin bushings in control arm. A 1 inch ream is recommended in these cases. Must use stock retaining clips. The Delrin we use has self lubricating properties, we suggest assembly with Superlube on the cross pin. All joints come pre-lubed with Superlube." I suppose if I had known (intuitively? instinctively?) that the the cross pin is 1 inch in diameter, I would have also known that the intent is to ream the delrin. Unfortunately, I didn't know the cross pin was 1" in diameter and didn't draw that conclusion until later... My mistake, another thing I've learned the hard way. Oh well; now I know, I'll fix it.

Having said the above, I must admit that I am generally disappointed with the instructions/directions generally provided by all vendors. This shouldn't be mysterious or some kind of secret (you know, if you don't know the secret handshake you don't get to play).

I should also state that I'm impressed with the quality and engineering thoughtfulness of the OTTP products. They actually appear to be more than just 'backyard fixes'.

BTW, with nearly 'stock' spring heights, the strut extends down lower than the maximum drop of the LCA. The bottom of the strut actually presses against the axle/axle boot. I switched to my Ground Control (shorter) systems to mount because I wasn't trying to compress the 6" spring as well as the shock to push it up enough to bolt on.

About the handling after install: I'm impressed! Everything feels tighter, even with only 150 lb springs up front and 200 lb springs in the rear. I wouldn't have thought I'd actually have a seat of the pants feeling of improvement but it's there. No more wheel hop, under hard braking it feels very planted (this is the most impressive single result), while cornering there's a feel of control I didn't have before. It inspires confidence. Overall, these couple changes are very worth it! I look forward to running with the DSP setup. I've driven some very prepared bimmers that felt like this...

Thanks for the input.

Scott

 

Scott I will revise the instructions carefully; I agree I tend not to write complete instructions, not because I dont want to help, but because I get tired of helping d-bag vendors who copy the stuff I make. PM me and I will be happy to help. If in fact you reamed the alloy arm, it will be oversize for the bushing. If you did, let me know the size i will make you some more (free + postage) bushings that will work for you and wont need a ream (if your size is correct and the bore is round in the arm)
reach me at gmsc thats where I hang out thanks

 

Da nada, I completely understand your position about the instructions.

No additional bushing are needed, I didn't ream out the aluminum, I only polished one a bit thinking I could ease the bushing in... I tried the delrin bushing and they seemed to fit -- tightly, but they fit, so I didn't do anything to the aluminum.

I appreciate your offer. Thank you. But I think I'll just get the cross pieces pushed back out and see about reaming the delrin. Now that I know what needs to be done, I can do it. Obviously, I'm not a mechanic (certified or otherwise) so I don't readily 'understand' all the things a mechanic would be expected to understand. That's why I rely on the instructions.

Let me offer another perspective; I'm an Information Technology person (by degrees, plural, and by certifications, plural) so I tend to think like an engineer -- straight lines, sequential, step-by-step, logical and deductive. For a living, I manage a nation-wide network composed of 1200+ servers, 2500+ routers and switches, and 15,000+ workstations. I work in terms of months to years to see results from new ideas: new architectures, new power efficiency improvements, new IT value/cost models - you get the idea. Not what most would call a 'fun' job.

So I'm an OJT mechanic because the results are almost immediate, and it gives me personal pleasure. Being able to do the work myself (albeit slowly), and to see and feel the results is great. And I like racing just as a means of testing myself -- trying to get myself better -- trying to improve the car -- I'm sure you understand. But all of this is just my hobby.

Thanks again for your support.

Scott

 

Final comments:

I removed the LCAs again and improvised a cross shaft removal tool (gear puller and some 1" ID washers did the trick), pulled the cross shaft and carefully honed out the delrin until it was an easy fit (it slides back and forth without any side play). Put everything back together, torqued it all down, and I'm happy with the results!

It definitely tightens things up. I can lay on the gas in first or second and really put the power to the ground. I would highly recommend these to anyone who wants to go fast.

Next test will be the next SCCA autocross with the Hoosiers back on the car.

Scott

 

Thanks Scott, great info. Add 2 more items to the wish list...

 

so for a normal install you are suppose to hone the metal lca where the bushing is installed right? then the derlin should push in with hands and the metal shaft should push in as well? like no press or hammer needed?