big brake kits
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From: Arlington Texas
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Joined: 12-28-05
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From: Birmingham, Alabama
All that has some truth to it but still has a number of holes in it.
Dont think theres holes...."some truth" are you implying that my description of Wilwoods is inaccurate or false by omission?
Often those 'less than desirable Baer/PBR sliders are replaced the the later mentioned Wilwood calipers both for the reasons mentioned and the improvements they bring.
Agreed, never said Wilwood stuff was poor quality, in fact I specifically said it was race level
Having been a dealer now for over 17yrs I have in fact sold some replacement Wilwoods to former customers. Mostly after about 4yrs of service in 24/7 applications where lack of maintenance (read cleaning) has taken their toll. While it's true that replacements are often sub $200ea, compared to the money spent on tires for the same duration this for many is a moot point. Still....with literally hundreds of customers around the globe the number of calipers I've sold for replacement could be counted on one hand.
I say 3yrs, you say 4yrs, the point is they do need to be replaced during regular use, especially in areas with high salt content, and/or harsh winters unless you are vigilant with maintenance, I know of very few people who fall into this category, regardless of what their daily driver is.
The amnount of money you spend on tires is irrelevant, OEM brakes and Baer/PBR calipers are designed to and will last the life of the vehicle in any climate, with virtually zero maintenance or additional expenditure for replacement non friction parts, The same can not be said for Wilwoods in the same price range
For options, there's the DPr or DynaPro Radial mount or BSL4r which are both fully "dust booted" but come with a premium cost. Given the rather budget nature of Cobalt owners I suspect most would not opt for this given the opportunity.
Agreed, but A: would you consider the DynaPro acceptable for a 300hp 3000lb car, or anyone who wanted larger than 12.2" rotors? B: The BSL4R is a very nice caliper, and would be my caliper of choice if I were to go aftermarket calipers, HOWEVER just the calipers alone cost as much as the complete Brembo system.
As for size matched to the Cobalt for master cylinder use; says who? I know of at least four different bore combos used in the production of six pot calipers so please don't make such blanket statements without having your facts correct.
I have my fact straight, I too am aware of Wilwoods 4 most common 6pot caliper piston areas(the 5th is far too large to even discuss) and the smallest they currently offer to my knowledge is a differential bore with 1.62/1.12/1.12 setup....yeilding 3.98sqin. of piston area. The Cobalt uses essentially two different caliper areas, 3.05sqin for the non SS cars, and 3.51sqin for the SS cars. The WW has a whopping 30% more area than the non SS cars and is obviously not anywhere near matched, the SS cars with larger area still have the WW calipers offering 13% more area, better but still not ideal and definitely enough to affect pedal travel and feel. Would you recommend increasing piston area by more than 5% as a general rule?
As for weight and value that's subjective;
Weight is not subjective, value is....but i said they COST more....they do.
some are heavier than four pots others lighter depending upon what you're comparing.The value of a six pot on the street is also more even pad wear thus requiring less service and attention to counter pad taper wear. And in some cases; improvement in wheel fit and wheel options over four pots.
Valid points, but youre not going to get a 6pot WW caliper thats lighter than the commonly used FBDL caliper without tripling the price at minimum
Dont think theres holes...."some truth" are you implying that my description of Wilwoods is inaccurate or false by omission?
Often those 'less than desirable Baer/PBR sliders are replaced the the later mentioned Wilwood calipers both for the reasons mentioned and the improvements they bring.
Agreed, never said Wilwood stuff was poor quality, in fact I specifically said it was race level
Having been a dealer now for over 17yrs I have in fact sold some replacement Wilwoods to former customers. Mostly after about 4yrs of service in 24/7 applications where lack of maintenance (read cleaning) has taken their toll. While it's true that replacements are often sub $200ea, compared to the money spent on tires for the same duration this for many is a moot point. Still....with literally hundreds of customers around the globe the number of calipers I've sold for replacement could be counted on one hand.
I say 3yrs, you say 4yrs, the point is they do need to be replaced during regular use, especially in areas with high salt content, and/or harsh winters unless you are vigilant with maintenance, I know of very few people who fall into this category, regardless of what their daily driver is.
The amnount of money you spend on tires is irrelevant, OEM brakes and Baer/PBR calipers are designed to and will last the life of the vehicle in any climate, with virtually zero maintenance or additional expenditure for replacement non friction parts, The same can not be said for Wilwoods in the same price range
For options, there's the DPr or DynaPro Radial mount or BSL4r which are both fully "dust booted" but come with a premium cost. Given the rather budget nature of Cobalt owners I suspect most would not opt for this given the opportunity.
Agreed, but A: would you consider the DynaPro acceptable for a 300hp 3000lb car, or anyone who wanted larger than 12.2" rotors? B: The BSL4R is a very nice caliper, and would be my caliper of choice if I were to go aftermarket calipers, HOWEVER just the calipers alone cost as much as the complete Brembo system.
As for size matched to the Cobalt for master cylinder use; says who? I know of at least four different bore combos used in the production of six pot calipers so please don't make such blanket statements without having your facts correct.
I have my fact straight, I too am aware of Wilwoods 4 most common 6pot caliper piston areas(the 5th is far too large to even discuss) and the smallest they currently offer to my knowledge is a differential bore with 1.62/1.12/1.12 setup....yeilding 3.98sqin. of piston area. The Cobalt uses essentially two different caliper areas, 3.05sqin for the non SS cars, and 3.51sqin for the SS cars. The WW has a whopping 30% more area than the non SS cars and is obviously not anywhere near matched, the SS cars with larger area still have the WW calipers offering 13% more area, better but still not ideal and definitely enough to affect pedal travel and feel. Would you recommend increasing piston area by more than 5% as a general rule?
As for weight and value that's subjective;
Weight is not subjective, value is....but i said they COST more....they do.
some are heavier than four pots others lighter depending upon what you're comparing.The value of a six pot on the street is also more even pad wear thus requiring less service and attention to counter pad taper wear. And in some cases; improvement in wheel fit and wheel options over four pots.
Valid points, but youre not going to get a 6pot WW caliper thats lighter than the commonly used FBDL caliper without tripling the price at minimum
Well you cant go on a website and buy "Time Attack" Cobalt brakes, but I imagine if you wanted that setup, thats about the area its gonna run for rotors, hardware, hats, and brackets.
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Joined: 12-05-07
Posts: 114
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From: tempe, az
Originally Posted by Todd TCE View Post
All that has some truth to it but still has a number of holes in it.
Dont think theres holes...."some truth" are you implying that my description of Wilwoods is inaccurate or false by omission?
I say holes or perhaps omissions, whatever. Just saying that while your summary has some accuracy to it leans a bit too far to the negative without being as fully informative as it could have been.
Often those 'less than desirable Baer/PBR sliders are replaced the the later mentioned Wilwood calipers both for the reasons mentioned and the improvements they bring.
Agreed, never said Wilwood stuff was poor quality, in fact I specifically said it was race level
Understood and agree.
Having been a dealer now for over 17yrs I have in fact sold some replacement Wilwoods to former customers. Mostly after about 4yrs of service in 24/7 applications where lack of maintenance (read cleaning) has taken their toll. While it's true that replacements are often sub $200ea, compared to the money spent on tires for the same duration this for many is a moot point. Still....with literally hundreds of customers around the globe the number of calipers I've sold for replacement could be counted on one hand.
I say 3yrs, you say 4yrs, the point is they do need to be replaced during regular use, especially in areas with high salt content, and/or harsh winters unless you are vigilant with maintenance, I know of very few people who fall into this category, regardless of what their daily driver is.
No, I did not say they need to be replaced. I said that with hundreds in service over the years I can recall very few, expressed as 'less than five' that I have knowingly done so. Meaning quite the opposite is the norm. Granted cars change hands, guys might buy elsewhere (why when I'll always do for less?) and other variable come into play but the fact is that the calipers do not fail, fall apart or stop functioning in Winter use.
The amnount of money you spend on tires is irrelevant, OEM brakes and Baer/PBR calipers are designed to and will last the life of the vehicle in any climate, with virtually zero maintenance or additional expenditure for replacement non friction parts, The same can not be said for Wilwoods in the same price range
I may tend to agree for the reasons above, but regardless if one were looking for the improvements offered by such kits/parts it's a trade off. Don't over look the previously mentioned comments on caliper design or the the common total burn off of dust boots when used in competition, the sticking often found with floating calipers in time, and inherent loss of pedal feel vs the fixed mount design. No caliper design is perfect, each has it's pros and cons. That being said the most long lasting option if time/miles is key would be the single pot iron part of course.
For options, there's the DPr or DynaPro Radial mount or BSL4r which are both fully "dust booted" but come with a premium cost. Given the rather budget nature of Cobalt owners I suspect most would not opt for this given the opportunity.
Agreed, but A: would you consider the DynaPro acceptable for a 300hp 3000lb car, or anyone who wanted larger than 12.2" rotors? B: The BSL4R is a very nice caliper, and would be my caliper of choice if I were to go aftermarket calipers, HOWEVER just the calipers alone cost as much as the complete Brembo system.
This caliper selection would be based upon the intended use of the car. HP numbers aside the daily driver can certainly benefit from such a fit and has proven to do so on a number of applications. The DPr is not limited to 12" rotors and is supplied as a direct fit on a number of larger factory kits. Yet I'd agree with you that the BSL4r would be the preferred caliper for those who are truly looking for larger improvements in other ways also and on 13-14" rotors. Yes a pair of them alone (not in kit form) would run about $800 and like I said before; sure it can be done, but I don't think I have a ready stream of buyers for a $18-1900 kit. That's a no brainer.
As for size matched to the Cobalt for master cylinder use; says who? I know of at least four different bore combos used in the production of six pot calipers so please don't make such blanket statements without having your facts correct.
I have my fact straight, I too am aware of Wilwoods 4 most common 6pot caliper piston areas(the 5th is far too large to even discuss) and the smallest they currently offer to my knowledge is a differential bore with 1.62/1.12/1.12 setup....yeilding 3.98sqin. of piston area. The Cobalt uses essentially two different caliper areas, 3.05sqin for the non SS cars, and 3.51sqin for the SS cars. The WW has a whopping 30% more area than the non SS cars and is obviously not anywhere near matched, the SS cars with larger area still have the WW calipers offering 13% more area, better but still not ideal and definitely enough to affect pedal travel and feel. Would you recommend increasing piston area by more than 5% as a general rule?
Actually I'd tend to favor a small reduction in piston area dependent upon the rotor size being used. So I'd opt for one with 3.0sq" in this case. On a 13" rotor. I'd call that about 'right on the money'. Still a +/- 5% is not going to be huge. Even if it were to be 5% larger the response alone of the fixed mount vs floating will net an equal or yet improved pedal feel. There's a ton of slop in the floating design not found in the other. As for bias issues, one can always add a marginal amount of front brake without a problem. Most do this already by simply replacing pads. Pad Cf can swing 5% or more bias alone. And nearly all FWD cars have little to be gained by elevating rear brake performance too much. Perhaps not 'ideal' in that we'd all like flat braking more than nose diving vehicle dynamics can't be changed too much on a Cobalt vs and Impala SS, weight is weight and you're kinda stuck with where it is.
As for weight and value that's subjective;
Weight is not subjective, value is....but i said they COST more....they do.
some are heavier than four pots others lighter depending upon what you're comparing.The value of a six pot on the street is also more even pad wear thus requiring less service and attention to counter pad taper wear. And in some cases; improvement in wheel fit and wheel options over four pots.
Valid points, but youre not going to get a 6pot WW caliper thats lighter than the commonly used FBDL caliper without tripling the price at minimum
Maybe, maybe not. 3lbs 2oz vs 5lbs 8oz. But certainly not for triple the price. I wish..! I don't think that for the money what you can get for $1300 is quite ample. But lets' be honest here....few of these cars will see serious track day use and those that do will be looking for far more the either the stock Brembo kit or one of my lighter duty kits will offer. Because of that I have the advantage in being able to build to the consumers needs whereas the stock kits do not.
For the record the replies here are for informational purposes only. I have little time to pick extended arguments here beyond what is posted by both parties above. The desire here is to provide informative data from all points to allow the consumer best figure what they need or want. There is no perfect, right or wrong answer to your selection.
All that has some truth to it but still has a number of holes in it.
Dont think theres holes...."some truth" are you implying that my description of Wilwoods is inaccurate or false by omission?
I say holes or perhaps omissions, whatever. Just saying that while your summary has some accuracy to it leans a bit too far to the negative without being as fully informative as it could have been.
Often those 'less than desirable Baer/PBR sliders are replaced the the later mentioned Wilwood calipers both for the reasons mentioned and the improvements they bring.
Agreed, never said Wilwood stuff was poor quality, in fact I specifically said it was race level
Understood and agree.
Having been a dealer now for over 17yrs I have in fact sold some replacement Wilwoods to former customers. Mostly after about 4yrs of service in 24/7 applications where lack of maintenance (read cleaning) has taken their toll. While it's true that replacements are often sub $200ea, compared to the money spent on tires for the same duration this for many is a moot point. Still....with literally hundreds of customers around the globe the number of calipers I've sold for replacement could be counted on one hand.
I say 3yrs, you say 4yrs, the point is they do need to be replaced during regular use, especially in areas with high salt content, and/or harsh winters unless you are vigilant with maintenance, I know of very few people who fall into this category, regardless of what their daily driver is.
No, I did not say they need to be replaced. I said that with hundreds in service over the years I can recall very few, expressed as 'less than five' that I have knowingly done so. Meaning quite the opposite is the norm. Granted cars change hands, guys might buy elsewhere (why when I'll always do for less?) and other variable come into play but the fact is that the calipers do not fail, fall apart or stop functioning in Winter use.
The amnount of money you spend on tires is irrelevant, OEM brakes and Baer/PBR calipers are designed to and will last the life of the vehicle in any climate, with virtually zero maintenance or additional expenditure for replacement non friction parts, The same can not be said for Wilwoods in the same price range
I may tend to agree for the reasons above, but regardless if one were looking for the improvements offered by such kits/parts it's a trade off. Don't over look the previously mentioned comments on caliper design or the the common total burn off of dust boots when used in competition, the sticking often found with floating calipers in time, and inherent loss of pedal feel vs the fixed mount design. No caliper design is perfect, each has it's pros and cons. That being said the most long lasting option if time/miles is key would be the single pot iron part of course.
For options, there's the DPr or DynaPro Radial mount or BSL4r which are both fully "dust booted" but come with a premium cost. Given the rather budget nature of Cobalt owners I suspect most would not opt for this given the opportunity.
Agreed, but A: would you consider the DynaPro acceptable for a 300hp 3000lb car, or anyone who wanted larger than 12.2" rotors? B: The BSL4R is a very nice caliper, and would be my caliper of choice if I were to go aftermarket calipers, HOWEVER just the calipers alone cost as much as the complete Brembo system.
This caliper selection would be based upon the intended use of the car. HP numbers aside the daily driver can certainly benefit from such a fit and has proven to do so on a number of applications. The DPr is not limited to 12" rotors and is supplied as a direct fit on a number of larger factory kits. Yet I'd agree with you that the BSL4r would be the preferred caliper for those who are truly looking for larger improvements in other ways also and on 13-14" rotors. Yes a pair of them alone (not in kit form) would run about $800 and like I said before; sure it can be done, but I don't think I have a ready stream of buyers for a $18-1900 kit. That's a no brainer.
As for size matched to the Cobalt for master cylinder use; says who? I know of at least four different bore combos used in the production of six pot calipers so please don't make such blanket statements without having your facts correct.
I have my fact straight, I too am aware of Wilwoods 4 most common 6pot caliper piston areas(the 5th is far too large to even discuss) and the smallest they currently offer to my knowledge is a differential bore with 1.62/1.12/1.12 setup....yeilding 3.98sqin. of piston area. The Cobalt uses essentially two different caliper areas, 3.05sqin for the non SS cars, and 3.51sqin for the SS cars. The WW has a whopping 30% more area than the non SS cars and is obviously not anywhere near matched, the SS cars with larger area still have the WW calipers offering 13% more area, better but still not ideal and definitely enough to affect pedal travel and feel. Would you recommend increasing piston area by more than 5% as a general rule?
Actually I'd tend to favor a small reduction in piston area dependent upon the rotor size being used. So I'd opt for one with 3.0sq" in this case. On a 13" rotor. I'd call that about 'right on the money'. Still a +/- 5% is not going to be huge. Even if it were to be 5% larger the response alone of the fixed mount vs floating will net an equal or yet improved pedal feel. There's a ton of slop in the floating design not found in the other. As for bias issues, one can always add a marginal amount of front brake without a problem. Most do this already by simply replacing pads. Pad Cf can swing 5% or more bias alone. And nearly all FWD cars have little to be gained by elevating rear brake performance too much. Perhaps not 'ideal' in that we'd all like flat braking more than nose diving vehicle dynamics can't be changed too much on a Cobalt vs and Impala SS, weight is weight and you're kinda stuck with where it is.
As for weight and value that's subjective;
Weight is not subjective, value is....but i said they COST more....they do.
some are heavier than four pots others lighter depending upon what you're comparing.The value of a six pot on the street is also more even pad wear thus requiring less service and attention to counter pad taper wear. And in some cases; improvement in wheel fit and wheel options over four pots.
Valid points, but youre not going to get a 6pot WW caliper thats lighter than the commonly used FBDL caliper without tripling the price at minimum
Maybe, maybe not. 3lbs 2oz vs 5lbs 8oz. But certainly not for triple the price. I wish..! I don't think that for the money what you can get for $1300 is quite ample. But lets' be honest here....few of these cars will see serious track day use and those that do will be looking for far more the either the stock Brembo kit or one of my lighter duty kits will offer. Because of that I have the advantage in being able to build to the consumers needs whereas the stock kits do not.
For the record the replies here are for informational purposes only. I have little time to pick extended arguments here beyond what is posted by both parties above. The desire here is to provide informative data from all points to allow the consumer best figure what they need or want. There is no perfect, right or wrong answer to your selection.
Senior Member
Joined: 02-03-08
Posts: 3,454
Likes: 1
From: Port Perry Ontario
All that has some truth to it but still has a number of holes in it.
Often those 'less than desirable Baer/PBR sliders are replaced the the later mentioned Wilwood calipers both for the reasons mentioned and the improvements they bring.
Having been a dealer now for over 17yrs I have in fact sold some replacement Wilwoods to former customers. Mostly after about 4yrs of service in 24/7 applications where lack of maintenance (read cleaning) has taken their toll. While it's true that replacements are often sub $200ea, compared to the money spent on tires for the same duration this for many is a moot point. Still....with literally hundreds of customers around the globe the number of calipers I've sold for replacement could be counted on one hand.
For options, there's the DPr or DynaPro Radial mount or BSL4r which are both fully "dust booted" but come with a premium cost. Given the rather budget nature of Cobalt owners I suspect most would not opt for this given the opportunity.
As for size matched to the Cobalt for master cylinder use; says who? I know of at least four different bore combos used in the production of six pot calipers so please don't make such blanket statements without having your facts correct. As for weight and value that's subjective; some are heavier than four pots others lighter depending upon what you're comparing. An 18" wheel is not necessarily heavier than a 17" just because it's larger...The value of a six pot on the street is also more even pad wear thus requiring less service and attention to counter pad taper wear. And in some cases; improvement in wheel fit and wheel options over four pots.
Just making sure all the information is on the table here. It's great that you have some knowledgeable members but that doesn't mean you should rely on them as a sole source of information.
Often those 'less than desirable Baer/PBR sliders are replaced the the later mentioned Wilwood calipers both for the reasons mentioned and the improvements they bring.
Having been a dealer now for over 17yrs I have in fact sold some replacement Wilwoods to former customers. Mostly after about 4yrs of service in 24/7 applications where lack of maintenance (read cleaning) has taken their toll. While it's true that replacements are often sub $200ea, compared to the money spent on tires for the same duration this for many is a moot point. Still....with literally hundreds of customers around the globe the number of calipers I've sold for replacement could be counted on one hand.
For options, there's the DPr or DynaPro Radial mount or BSL4r which are both fully "dust booted" but come with a premium cost. Given the rather budget nature of Cobalt owners I suspect most would not opt for this given the opportunity.
As for size matched to the Cobalt for master cylinder use; says who? I know of at least four different bore combos used in the production of six pot calipers so please don't make such blanket statements without having your facts correct. As for weight and value that's subjective; some are heavier than four pots others lighter depending upon what you're comparing. An 18" wheel is not necessarily heavier than a 17" just because it's larger...The value of a six pot on the street is also more even pad wear thus requiring less service and attention to counter pad taper wear. And in some cases; improvement in wheel fit and wheel options over four pots.
Just making sure all the information is on the table here. It's great that you have some knowledgeable members but that doesn't mean you should rely on them as a sole source of information.
Todd sucks to be you...this statement is true, caps lock for emphasis:
WARNING: YOUR SAFETY IS AT RISK. THERE ARE NO SIX PISTON CALIPERS AVAILABLE ON THE AFTERMARKET TODAY THAT ARE WITHIN THE FLUID CAPACITY OF THE COBALT MASTER CYLINDER; use of 6 piston calipers on a Cobalt MAY CAUSE TOTAL LOSS OF BRAKING if the pads are worn as THE BRAKE PEDAL WILL ONE STROKE TO THE LIMIT OF TRAVEL AND FAIL TO APPLY PAD TO DISC PRESSURE. As a result the CAR WILL NOT STOP AND YOU MAY CRASH.
Last edited by qwikredline; Apr 3, 2009 at 08:50 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
New Member
Joined: 12-05-07
Posts: 114
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From: tempe, az
I wish I'd known this before I put a few sets on the shelf. Stupid me, what was I thinking; 1.375 / 1.00 / 1.00 bore.
Hell, I'll just scrap them. Thanks for the heads up.
Senior Member
Joined: 02-03-08
Posts: 3,454
Likes: 1
From: Port Perry Ontario
A must be greater than B to meet the requirements. You show me your math. I suggest that you should do this if you do not know then, perhaps you should be more cautious about offering brake systems where the driver could reach pedal runout and not be able to stop the car with worn linings.
If you can fit them, these are probably the best bang for the buck when counting bling factor, size, performance, durability, maintenance, etc....
If you just want tried and true, race and road validated, championship winning,rock solid, super high perfomance, lasts virtually forever brakes that also happen too look cool, you want these:
There are compromises everywhere, Brembos are factory original, cheap, so good the race teams arent allowed to use, BUT they dont fit in most common wheels. solid rotor only(for now........)
Baers are nice, OE level stuff that performs well but has well documented serious flaws under high stress situations, solid rotor
one race weekend)
JBP....well I cant recommend doing business with them and their product is just a variation on the Baer/PBR theme.
SSBC just "seems" like an awkward system, Ive seen on and didnt like it, even if it was only for the fact that its ugly(not the only reason though), solid rotor.
Wilwood makes good stuff, they make enough product that it will make your head spin if trying to do it on your own, youre gonna pay to get the pretty stuff, you need to be sure you or your Wilwood dealer are aware of the specs of your brake system(not nearly is big an issue with the Brembo or Time Attack kit), getting a floating rotor setup will be hard/expensive.
Time attack doesnt include pretty calipers.
If you just want tried and true, race and road validated, championship winning,rock solid, super high perfomance, lasts virtually forever brakes that also happen too look cool, you want these:
There are compromises everywhere, Brembos are factory original, cheap, so good the race teams arent allowed to use, BUT they dont fit in most common wheels. solid rotor only(for now........)
Baers are nice, OE level stuff that performs well but has well documented serious flaws under high stress situations, solid rotor
one race weekend)JBP....well I cant recommend doing business with them and their product is just a variation on the Baer/PBR theme.
SSBC just "seems" like an awkward system, Ive seen on and didnt like it, even if it was only for the fact that its ugly(not the only reason though), solid rotor.
Wilwood makes good stuff, they make enough product that it will make your head spin if trying to do it on your own, youre gonna pay to get the pretty stuff, you need to be sure you or your Wilwood dealer are aware of the specs of your brake system(not nearly is big an issue with the Brembo or Time Attack kit), getting a floating rotor setup will be hard/expensive.
Time attack doesnt include pretty calipers.
New Member
Joined: 12-05-07
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: tempe, az
Here we go, Todd. FVMSS 135 ;the Cobalt meets this standard by law.The total capacity of the Cobalt master cylinder system including all individual compartments as certified for m.y. 2005 is 388.48 cc.=(A) . The fluid displaced from new to worn linings is 165.62 cc.=(B)
A must be greater than B to meet the requirements. You show me your math. I suggest that you should do this if you do not know then, perhaps you should be more cautious about offering brake systems where the driver could reach pedal runout and not be able to stop the car with worn linings.
I guess I fail to see what you're (trying) to drive at here.
I've fessed up that yes there are six pot calipers that are to the requirements of your system carrying a spec of 1.375 / 1.00 / 1.00" bores. That nets 3.0sq" of total are. This is smaller than the current piston area by a respectable amount and well within line for the use of a 13" rotor to balance the changes as needed.
I'll let you do the math. What I can very easily tell you is that there is absolutely no way, no how, that you're going to see any detrimental issues with regard to fluid displacement. I think by now if I'd had such problems I'd certainly have heard of it on hundreds of other vehicles.
I believe what you're trying to reference is that when pads are worn that the total displacement of the calipers piston(s) must not exceed the loss of the pad materials. (trying to pick the wording here) To say that when the pads are worn down that the piston is not extended so far as to be beyond the sealing area thus allowing fluid to leak from the seals. This is controlled by the thickness of the pads and the backing plate. A pad worn to metal must still have the piston held within the sealing range of the calipers bore for obvious reasons. I can more than assure you that any caliper I sell or kit produces adheres to that.
All that being said, there's also a huge difference between that requirement on a fixed multi pot caliper and a single piston floater. Wrap you head around this a moment; a single piston caliper can wear the outer pad sooner by hanging up, in which case the entire caliper is off center, then as the inner pad wears the piston can extend itself more to make up for the lack of outer pad. If in worst case the piston is not sized relative to the sealing area of the bore it would be possible for the seal to leak. Despite one of the pads having more material left than the other. This is not the case at all on a fixed mount caliper as each half of the caliper works independent of the other and nothing about the body moves.
Or perhaps you are implying that the pedal will somehow 'bottom' out with such calipers. Or when the pads are worn. Won't happen, no how, no way. Again a fixed caliper has no moving body. The pistons when displaced remain that way until they are retracted for pad replacement. The pads will bottom on the plates and grind well before you'd bottom the mc as pressure remains constant regardless of the pad wear.
Maybe it has to do with mc reservoir size? Meaning that the fluid level must not be allowed to drop below a certain level with full piston displacement?
I have no doubt your comments are filled with good intentions. What's missing is that you're applying them in a way not consistent with the reality of what's being proposed. In your world there's no brake kit produced that would past muster. With suppliers including Wilwood, Brembo, Stoptech, Rotora and others producing thousands of kits I can assure you that in nearly all cases these kits are running multi piston calipers with less piston area than stock. Spell out exactly what you're looking to calculate and the reason for it please.
Here's the math that I can toss out for you to use.
Piston are is 3.056sq" or 50cc (less area than stock, check Mavins posts for stock) and a rough guess on pad displacement to plate is .34" or .9cm. By my count that's 45cc to the plate. Taking even into account all four pads that's 180cc of potential displacement. A>B.
And while at it, let's get the spec on the blue calipers too. I'm sure by this analogy we'll both be in the sinking ship together!
A must be greater than B to meet the requirements. You show me your math. I suggest that you should do this if you do not know then, perhaps you should be more cautious about offering brake systems where the driver could reach pedal runout and not be able to stop the car with worn linings.
I guess I fail to see what you're (trying) to drive at here.
I've fessed up that yes there are six pot calipers that are to the requirements of your system carrying a spec of 1.375 / 1.00 / 1.00" bores. That nets 3.0sq" of total are. This is smaller than the current piston area by a respectable amount and well within line for the use of a 13" rotor to balance the changes as needed.
I'll let you do the math. What I can very easily tell you is that there is absolutely no way, no how, that you're going to see any detrimental issues with regard to fluid displacement. I think by now if I'd had such problems I'd certainly have heard of it on hundreds of other vehicles.
I believe what you're trying to reference is that when pads are worn that the total displacement of the calipers piston(s) must not exceed the loss of the pad materials. (trying to pick the wording here) To say that when the pads are worn down that the piston is not extended so far as to be beyond the sealing area thus allowing fluid to leak from the seals. This is controlled by the thickness of the pads and the backing plate. A pad worn to metal must still have the piston held within the sealing range of the calipers bore for obvious reasons. I can more than assure you that any caliper I sell or kit produces adheres to that.
All that being said, there's also a huge difference between that requirement on a fixed multi pot caliper and a single piston floater. Wrap you head around this a moment; a single piston caliper can wear the outer pad sooner by hanging up, in which case the entire caliper is off center, then as the inner pad wears the piston can extend itself more to make up for the lack of outer pad. If in worst case the piston is not sized relative to the sealing area of the bore it would be possible for the seal to leak. Despite one of the pads having more material left than the other. This is not the case at all on a fixed mount caliper as each half of the caliper works independent of the other and nothing about the body moves.
Or perhaps you are implying that the pedal will somehow 'bottom' out with such calipers. Or when the pads are worn. Won't happen, no how, no way. Again a fixed caliper has no moving body. The pistons when displaced remain that way until they are retracted for pad replacement. The pads will bottom on the plates and grind well before you'd bottom the mc as pressure remains constant regardless of the pad wear.
Maybe it has to do with mc reservoir size? Meaning that the fluid level must not be allowed to drop below a certain level with full piston displacement?
I have no doubt your comments are filled with good intentions. What's missing is that you're applying them in a way not consistent with the reality of what's being proposed. In your world there's no brake kit produced that would past muster. With suppliers including Wilwood, Brembo, Stoptech, Rotora and others producing thousands of kits I can assure you that in nearly all cases these kits are running multi piston calipers with less piston area than stock. Spell out exactly what you're looking to calculate and the reason for it please.
Here's the math that I can toss out for you to use.
Piston are is 3.056sq" or 50cc (less area than stock, check Mavins posts for stock) and a rough guess on pad displacement to plate is .34" or .9cm. By my count that's 45cc to the plate. Taking even into account all four pads that's 180cc of potential displacement. A>B.
And while at it, let's get the spec on the blue calipers too. I'm sure by this analogy we'll both be in the sinking ship together!
Senior Member
Joined: 02-03-08
Posts: 3,454
Likes: 1
From: Port Perry Ontario
Here we go, Todd. FVMSS 135 ;the Cobalt meets this standard by law.The total capacity of the Cobalt master cylinder system including all individual compartments as certified for m.y. 2005 is 388.48 cc.=(A) . The fluid displaced from new to worn linings is 165.62 cc.=(B)
A must be greater than B to meet the requirements. You show me your math. I suggest that you should do this if you do not know then, perhaps you should be more cautious about offering brake systems where the driver could reach pedal runout and not be able to stop the car with worn linings.
I guess I fail to see what you're (trying) to drive at here.
I've fessed up that yes there are six pot calipers that are to the requirements of your system carrying a spec of 1.375 / 1.00 / 1.00" bores. That nets 3.0sq" of total are. This is smaller than the current piston area by a respectable amount and well within line for the use of a 13" rotor to balance the changes as needed.
I'll let you do the math. What I can very easily tell you is that there is absolutely no way, no how, that you're going to see any detrimental issues with regard to fluid displacement. I think by now if I'd had such problems I'd certainly have heard of it on hundreds of other vehicles.
I believe what you're trying to reference is that when pads are worn that the total displacement of the calipers piston(s) must not exceed the loss of the pad materials. (trying to pick the wording here) To say that when the pads are worn down that the piston is not extended so far as to be beyond the sealing area thus allowing fluid to leak from the seals. This is controlled by the thickness of the pads and the backing plate. A pad worn to metal must still have the piston held within the sealing range of the calipers bore for obvious reasons. I can more than assure you that any caliper I sell or kit produces adheres to that.
All that being said, there's also a huge difference between that requirement on a fixed multi pot caliper and a single piston floater. Wrap you head around this a moment; a single piston caliper can wear the outer pad sooner by hanging up, in which case the entire caliper is off center, then as the inner pad wears the piston can extend itself more to make up for the lack of outer pad. If in worst case the piston is not sized relative to the sealing area of the bore it would be possible for the seal to leak. Despite one of the pads having more material left than the other. This is not the case at all on a fixed mount caliper as each half of the caliper works independent of the other and nothing about the body moves.
Or perhaps you are implying that the pedal will somehow 'bottom' out with such calipers. Or when the pads are worn. Won't happen, no how, no way. Again a fixed caliper has no moving body. The pistons when displaced remain that way until they are retracted for pad replacement. The pads will bottom on the plates and grind well before you'd bottom the mc as pressure remains constant regardless of the pad wear.
Maybe it has to do with mc reservoir size? Meaning that the fluid level must not be allowed to drop below a certain level with full piston displacement?
I have no doubt your comments are filled with good intentions. What's missing is that you're applying them in a way not consistent with the reality of what's being proposed. In your world there's no brake kit produced that would past muster. With suppliers including Wilwood, Brembo, Stoptech, Rotora and others producing thousands of kits I can assure you that in nearly all cases these kits are running multi piston calipers with less piston area than stock. Spell out exactly what you're looking to calculate and the reason for it please.
Here's the math that I can toss out for you to use.
Piston are is 3.056sq" or 50cc (less area than stock, check Mavins posts for stock) and a rough guess on pad displacement to plate is .34" or .9cm. By my count that's 45cc to the plate. Taking even into account all four pads that's 180cc of potential displacement. A>B.
And while at it, let's get the spec on the blue calipers too. I'm sure by this analogy we'll both be in the sinking ship together!
A must be greater than B to meet the requirements. You show me your math. I suggest that you should do this if you do not know then, perhaps you should be more cautious about offering brake systems where the driver could reach pedal runout and not be able to stop the car with worn linings.
I guess I fail to see what you're (trying) to drive at here.
I've fessed up that yes there are six pot calipers that are to the requirements of your system carrying a spec of 1.375 / 1.00 / 1.00" bores. That nets 3.0sq" of total are. This is smaller than the current piston area by a respectable amount and well within line for the use of a 13" rotor to balance the changes as needed.
I'll let you do the math. What I can very easily tell you is that there is absolutely no way, no how, that you're going to see any detrimental issues with regard to fluid displacement. I think by now if I'd had such problems I'd certainly have heard of it on hundreds of other vehicles.
I believe what you're trying to reference is that when pads are worn that the total displacement of the calipers piston(s) must not exceed the loss of the pad materials. (trying to pick the wording here) To say that when the pads are worn down that the piston is not extended so far as to be beyond the sealing area thus allowing fluid to leak from the seals. This is controlled by the thickness of the pads and the backing plate. A pad worn to metal must still have the piston held within the sealing range of the calipers bore for obvious reasons. I can more than assure you that any caliper I sell or kit produces adheres to that.
All that being said, there's also a huge difference between that requirement on a fixed multi pot caliper and a single piston floater. Wrap you head around this a moment; a single piston caliper can wear the outer pad sooner by hanging up, in which case the entire caliper is off center, then as the inner pad wears the piston can extend itself more to make up for the lack of outer pad. If in worst case the piston is not sized relative to the sealing area of the bore it would be possible for the seal to leak. Despite one of the pads having more material left than the other. This is not the case at all on a fixed mount caliper as each half of the caliper works independent of the other and nothing about the body moves.
Or perhaps you are implying that the pedal will somehow 'bottom' out with such calipers. Or when the pads are worn. Won't happen, no how, no way. Again a fixed caliper has no moving body. The pistons when displaced remain that way until they are retracted for pad replacement. The pads will bottom on the plates and grind well before you'd bottom the mc as pressure remains constant regardless of the pad wear.
Maybe it has to do with mc reservoir size? Meaning that the fluid level must not be allowed to drop below a certain level with full piston displacement?
I have no doubt your comments are filled with good intentions. What's missing is that you're applying them in a way not consistent with the reality of what's being proposed. In your world there's no brake kit produced that would past muster. With suppliers including Wilwood, Brembo, Stoptech, Rotora and others producing thousands of kits I can assure you that in nearly all cases these kits are running multi piston calipers with less piston area than stock. Spell out exactly what you're looking to calculate and the reason for it please.
Here's the math that I can toss out for you to use.
Piston are is 3.056sq" or 50cc (less area than stock, check Mavins posts for stock) and a rough guess on pad displacement to plate is .34" or .9cm. By my count that's 45cc to the plate. Taking even into account all four pads that's 180cc of potential displacement. A>B.
And while at it, let's get the spec on the blue calipers too. I'm sure by this analogy we'll both be in the sinking ship together!
Brembo dont do a 6 piston caliper for a cobalt. Willwood do good brakes, Stoptech as well, dont know about Rotora, but the fact is that Brembo is the only large company among any of these you have named. There is no requirement in the USA for aftermarket brakes to meet any sort of standard.
In Germany there is; TUV will not allow unvalidated aftermarket parts.
Brembo offer some really good aftermarket brake kits - for example 6 piston for Corvette, cost about 4500k an axle set.Their engineering is validated to the same standards federal standards as OEM.
Have you ever had brake failure with a brake kit? Or with any sort of brakes? I have, bith on the race track and on the road. Its ugly and can be deadly. All I am saying is "Be cautious." And dont invite me to do the Math on YOUR PRODUCTS. I dont care. You are the one who is liable for what you sell. Good luck.
Senior Member
Joined: 11-06-06
Posts: 992
Likes: 0
From: Pontypool, Ontario
If you can fit them, these are probably the best bang for the buck when counting bling factor, size, performance, durability, maintenance, etc....
If you just want tried and true, race and road validated, championship winning,rock solid, super high perfomance, lasts virtually forever brakes that also happen too look cool, you want these:
There are compromises everywhere, Brembos are factory original, cheap, so good the race teams arent allowed to use, BUT they dont fit in most common wheels. solid rotor only(for now........)
Baers are nice, OE level stuff that performs well but has well documented serious flaws under high stress situations, solid rotorone race weekend)
JBP....well I cant recommend doing business with them and their product is just a variation on the Baer/PBR theme.
SSBC just "seems" like an awkward system, Ive seen on and didnt like it, even if it was only for the fact that its ugly(not the only reason though), solid rotor.
Wilwood makes good stuff, they make enough product that it will make your head spin if trying to do it on your own, youre gonna pay to get the pretty stuff, you need to be sure you or your Wilwood dealer are aware of the specs of your brake system(not nearly is big an issue with the Brembo or Time Attack kit), getting a floating rotor setup will be hard/expensive.
Time attack doesnt include pretty calipers.
If you just want tried and true, race and road validated, championship winning,rock solid, super high perfomance, lasts virtually forever brakes that also happen too look cool, you want these:
There are compromises everywhere, Brembos are factory original, cheap, so good the race teams arent allowed to use, BUT they dont fit in most common wheels. solid rotor only(for now........)
Baers are nice, OE level stuff that performs well but has well documented serious flaws under high stress situations, solid rotor
one race weekend)JBP....well I cant recommend doing business with them and their product is just a variation on the Baer/PBR theme.
SSBC just "seems" like an awkward system, Ive seen on and didnt like it, even if it was only for the fact that its ugly(not the only reason though), solid rotor.
Wilwood makes good stuff, they make enough product that it will make your head spin if trying to do it on your own, youre gonna pay to get the pretty stuff, you need to be sure you or your Wilwood dealer are aware of the specs of your brake system(not nearly is big an issue with the Brembo or Time Attack kit), getting a floating rotor setup will be hard/expensive.
Time attack doesnt include pretty calipers.
hmm those first two set ups look very familiar.
New Member
Joined: 12-05-07
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: tempe, az
the blue 4 piston calipers are stock Cobalt TC. You are missing the point its fluid volume, not the area of the piston, and the issue is pedal stroke volume with worn pads. If you dont understand it, then too bad.
Brembo dont do a 6 piston caliper for a cobalt. Willwood do good brakes, Stoptech as well, dont know about Rotora, but the fact is that Brembo is the only large company among any of these you have named. There is no requirement in the USA for aftermarket brakes to meet any sort of standard.
In Germany there is; TUV will not allow unvalidated aftermarket parts.
Brembo offer some really good aftermarket brake kits - for example 6 piston for Corvette, cost about 4500k an axle set.Their engineering is validated to the same standards federal standards as OEM.
Have you ever had brake failure with a brake kit? Or with any sort of brakes? I have, bith on the race track and on the road. Its ugly and can be deadly. All I am saying is "Be cautious." And dont invite me to do the Math on YOUR PRODUCTS. I dont care. You are the one who is liable for what you sell. Good luck.
Brembo dont do a 6 piston caliper for a cobalt. Willwood do good brakes, Stoptech as well, dont know about Rotora, but the fact is that Brembo is the only large company among any of these you have named. There is no requirement in the USA for aftermarket brakes to meet any sort of standard.
In Germany there is; TUV will not allow unvalidated aftermarket parts.
Brembo offer some really good aftermarket brake kits - for example 6 piston for Corvette, cost about 4500k an axle set.Their engineering is validated to the same standards federal standards as OEM.
Have you ever had brake failure with a brake kit? Or with any sort of brakes? I have, bith on the race track and on the road. Its ugly and can be deadly. All I am saying is "Be cautious." And dont invite me to do the Math on YOUR PRODUCTS. I dont care. You are the one who is liable for what you sell. Good luck.
Dude, if you knew half of what you think you do you'd be dangerous...
Piston area has everything to do with it! I don't care HOW MANY pistons it has; one, two, four, six or ten. If you run the pads down to the backing plate the fluid displacement is Piston Area x the Extension of the piston. It has nothing to do with the cubic inches of the pad material or anything else. Hell, you brought it up, at least be good enough to explain it!
Let me do some math for you. You need help.
A stock piston of (I'll use MAVEN's data even) is 3.51Sq" based on about a 2.125" piston or 53mm
I'm not sure the bores of the Brembo shown but will take a guess of 2 x 35mm or 2 x 36mm per side netting the aprox 3.0-3.1sq" I suspect it has. (please update if incorrect)
I have already told you the spec on the Wilwood caliper at 3.0sq" total.
The displacement of these caliper to take the plates to the rotors will be the AREA of the caliper x the thickness of the friction material itself, thus the EXTENSION. Basing the thickness of the pads to be roughly the same then having less piston area means a less total displacement of fluid. In fact I suspect the oe single pot caliper pad is probably thicker than either the Brembo or the Wilwood so it's going to still displace MORE fluid than the others. (btw, piston area is expressed as one half the caliper body to account for sliding designs)
Chart for the handicapped: (each taking into account both pads being worn to plate)
A. 3.5sq", .375 thick pads, = 1.313" x 2 or 2.616 ci fluid.
B. 3.0sq", .375 thick pads, = 1.11 x 2 or 2.220 ci fluid.
C. 3.0sq", .330 thick pads, = 0.990 x 2 or 1.980 ci fluid.
Now Mr. Genius which one of those will have the lesser amount of fluid displaced?
BBKs almost always have less fluid displacement than oe calipers. It's part of the design of the kit in general. And what often gives the firmer pedal and better feel that owners want.
Big companies, small ones, TUV ratings, your brake failure, six pot Vette kits??? All that is totally meaningless filler to the discussion at hand. And without specifics on anything you're just rambling on....
Honestly; I don't care if you bleed Brembo red. They make a fine product. What I do care about is that you're spewing things you don't even understand- now you've been caught with your pants down. If you want to bring the tech that's fine. At least understand what you're speaking about before you post.
I had Wilwoods for 2 years living in PA and beat the **** out of them and barely had any wear on my cav from speeds much higher than you will ever hit on a road course. So other peoples opinions on them don't really change my view on them because of my experience in actually using them