I dont know if this is normal, but I just put a progress rear swaybar and 4 falken fk452 tires. This is helping my handling alot, but (probably due to the swaybar), under hard braking in corners I feel the back end move more than the front slightly but does not break tration. I broke the back end loose slightly (maybe bucked out a foot or 2)on a country road at about 80mph/120kmh on a 10 to 15 degree snap of a turn, only a little bit but was controlable. This may have been due to sand on road unexpectadly, but will go back to location to check later today. Also, during hard braking from 85-90mph/ 140-145kmh on perfectly straight, my back end on lightening up will sway slightly side to side without breaking the back end loose. This same thing occurs when reacting to very light bump steer at 100-110mph/ 160-170kmh. I am wondering if a strutbar up front will help tighten my front end and correct some of these problems. Any other imput into any of the handling I'm feeling would be great, I'm open to suggestions, till then I'm just gonna be a little easier on it and be very mindfull of its limits.

*edit sorry about the misspelled title, was drunk when i wrote it and typing about the driving I did that afternoon,lol*

 

That makes no sense that you feel the front move more than the front???

By adding a large rear swaybar, you have losened the rear end of the car up, which is why you were able to break the rear loose at high speed around that turn. Sand on the road would aggravate the lose condition To reduce this, you can get a larger front swaybar (if you can find one).

You will lose grip from the rear tires during hard breaking, this is caused by weight transfer (nose dive). You might also be getting slight rear wheel hop if the road is not smooth.

A strut bar should help, but I have read from others that it does little due to the location of the strut towers close to the firewall.

 

Edited, about the front moving more than the front. I was just in a rush and not think straight, I was typing this thread after just coming in from tht hard run and I was on the way home from skydiving,lol. But yeah, the braking is the only part that felt real wierd, I know nose dive is gonna trasfer weight to the front, but normally under hard conditions I only feel that resulting in the back end moving to one side uif I'm cornering, until I put the swaybar on I never had my back end wave back and forth like that. it was atleast 6 inched each direction, most likely a foot to a foot and a half of sideways motion on perfectly straight driving, it wasnt affecting my front end much but still... when I lower it'll help my probelm with weight transfer, but lowering puts off your alignment right? Where I live I cant drive lowered in the winter, so I need to pay 50-100(or maybe if I'm lucky a case of beer for the mechanics on base?,lol) to get the springs on or off, plus an allignment every time before and after winter. So its not worth putting it on when I get the $ in september to get it done ebacuse it'll have to come off in late ocober/ early november. I'm wondering what I can do to help it other than lowering?

 

front strut bar and front sway bar will fix this. Basically, only doing the rear put your car out of balance and causes oversteer

 

midnightNB you made the same mistake I made buying 18 inchFalkens for my car. The Falken 452's say right on the web site, "drifting favorite" or something like that. These tires have no lateral grip i took them off great for driving in straight lines on the highway useless for anything of a sporting nature. On the race track terrible. I am sure there are other Falkens that are better, Azenis that Periodic uses etc. But what you are describing is 100% junk tire grip....say la vie

An SS/SC has a front sway bar, the front towers are close to the firewall a strutbar does nothing for handling everything for looks....the folks that think it helps handling wise are regrettably confused. No Grand Am road racing Cobalt has a strut bar....rear sway bar addtions help roll stiffness no doubt, how much depends on what bar...in this case its a case of "tires are sheet, no greeep"...

 

I found they felt like they had more lateral grip than the stock pirelli tires though?, the sidewall is quite stiffer the stock tires and rolls less in corners. Compound feels grippier but that I dont really know for certain, the stiffer sidewalls I'm sure of though, a friend testing out the car yesterday and he braught the back end out when he cut a corner too far into the other lane and had to lane change on a tight 90 degree turn at about 50mph. The rear onyl went out a foot or 2 and caught traction very well. handles slightly better after I checked the air preassure again, when they mounterd the tires they filled the front to 37 and the back to 35, rides a little better at 35 all around. BTW if I'm going to be driving hard and generating alot of heat, should I let a little air out? what hot pressure should I be at, after a hard run (maybe 20 mins normal driving and then 5 mins hard at the spot before I get home) I was 5-6 psi over my cold pressure.

Thanks for the input ont he strutbar, I'll cancel my order, considering a lower subfram bar, does anyone have one here and can tell me what they got out of it? Did it just help tightness overall, or more towards the front or rear?

 

that doesnt make sense. why would they make aftermarket sway bars to make your car handle worse. It would stiffen up the rear to prevent the amount of body roll you would get.

 

The bar doesn't make the car handle worse. The bar eliminates body roll and also losens the car up (oversteer). Its not like the car is constantly out of control. It does not oversteer to that point.

Because of the weight distribution (60/40) and that its front wheel drive, these cars push (understeer) a lot. What would happen under this condition is going through a corner too fast, the car would go stright no matter how much you turn the wheel. He mentioned that his back end came out about 1 ft. I would consider this a great improvement over going stright off the road.

Also, the reason that factory cars are designed to push, many people don't know what to do if the back end starts to come around (countersteer). If you don't do this, you can easily spin out (and get T-boned). If the car pushes, you have only one option, slow down, which even most very dumb people can figure out.

If you look at any set of aftermarket swaybars sold, the rear is smaller than the front, to give the car a more balanced feel, and typically theres more weight in the front anyway. If you put a progress bar on an LS, the rear bar is larger than the front, losening the car up. This is the whole reason that I bought mine, and don't want it any other way.

 

I think he meant it made it more tight, and it DOES IMPROVE handling, that wasnt my complaint. The issue was that the swaybar gives the car a tendency to overstreer beacuse the back doesnt want to roll even when the front is rolling more, so if you put in some sharp steering input to one direction and then to another, the front will roll with it and the back has less give and will break loose. On just turning into a corner the swaybar makes a huge difference. The only problem is on places like an s-curve when you go from a left hand turn to a right hand turn sharply, or vice-versa; this will break the back end loose if done while driving hard, and thats what I'm trying to correct if possible.

All in all, the tires and swaybar make a huge difference over stock, turns I took at 130km/h(80mph), I feel more confident at 140km/h'ish(around 90mph). Its just now I have to back off back to around the stock limits when the turn is an s-turn, which is not really that bad.

 

Also, if you want the car to be loser, increase the rear tire pressure by 2 or 3 psi. If you want the car to be tighter, drop the rear tire pressure 2 or 3 psi. If you give it a try and really drive it, you will be amazed at the differance you can actually feel.

Tight refers to understeer, lose refers to oversteer. The bar links the rear springs which has an effect of losening the car up. Adjusting the tire pressure has the same effect. Higher rear pressure = higher spring rate (loser). Lower rear pressure means lower spring rate (tighter).

You can accomplish the same by adjusting the front tire pressure. Increasing the front will tighten the car up, and dropping the front will losen the car up.

Don't go far from the reccommended tire pressure as the tires will wear unevenly. If you take it to the extreme, they have potential of overheating with too little pressure. This is the reason that many Firestone tires failed on ford explores.

 

so now I'm gonna want to drop pressure to the rear a bit, which at 35psi I'm still easily able to do, but I the more I drop from the back without dropping in the front I'll be sacrificing straight line acceleration froma stop beacuse I'll have more body roll to the rear right? thats why most people put 28 in the front 40 in the back for drag racing in these cars or something along those lines right? I wanna figure out my best set-up for my driving style, I usually hit-up alot of back roads from time to time but still do some city or outer city where I'll like to ocassionally accelerate hard from a stopsign/stoplight as do most people from time to time,lol. I'm runnign 35 all around now, used to run 32/36 on stock tires without the swaybar.

 

Loose refers to oversteer

Tight refers to understeer

Yes that bar does losen the car up. Yes the bar does link the rear suspension and makes it feel more solid. This is because what one wheel tries to do the other wheel prevents. This is why the car is looser (oversteer).

Lower front psi will give you more traction off the line, and will also give you more front grip through a corner, but its all about balance. It will cause the rear end to step out further (oversteer) during hard corning.

Unless all you do is dragrace, you don't want to stray far from the reccommended tire pressures, or you might only get 20,000 miles out of 50,000 miles tires. Your also gona burn more gas at low tire pressures.

If you drop the rear only (2psi), I doubt that you will be able to notice a differance in your stright line speed.

 

yeah thats gonna be a hard call to make,lol. Unless I can loosen up the front end another way to bring the handling closer to neutral. I guess I could let out a little air if I know I'm gonna drive hard out for a night on the town (and not the drinkin type) and just keep it near what I have now. Also, if I drop both the front and rear by the same amount, my handling bias should stay around the same then right? But if I drop it from 35 all around to 32 all around I'll lose a bit of handling at the limits do to increased body roll right? I want to know if I'm understanding this all right. Also, I noticed alot more straight line traction in my ss/sc going from 35/35 to 30/37 for a day to try it, so I know dropping pressure in the front works on a boosted fwd car. You might not feel it on a 2.2, but on my s/c I feel it alot.

 

**** if ur complaining bout ur balts handling and its ass swinging around,than ull love my neon,lol..even tho i got coilovers its still all over the place,lol

 

Naw I'm not really complaining much, the title of the thread aside from being misspelled was also a little overstated, I was half-drunk at the time, and recalls the run I made that afternoon,lol. its a slight problem and if I can get it fixed that'd be nice, but I'm happy enough as-is if thats just what comes with the mods.

 

there is no simple answer. the rear twisting beam sits in rubber and that interferes with rear roll stiffness calculations. there is a limit to how stiff and what bar and what it is made of. i prefer tubular chrome moly as it is predictable as a material and doesnt need heat treat and is hollow therfore lighter and its easy to install and the engineering is already done by smarter people than I , BUT the 452 dont grip so forget any discussion about stability the Pirellis are WAY better for lateral grip...so (were) my Avons they are done now...

 

If you drop both you should have about the same balance.

The tire pressure changes are going to have little effect on the body roll of the car (unless you go very big). Also, if you drop the pressure in all the tires, the car might feel like it responds kinda slow, and floats over bumps. My car felt like crap when I got it, tires were 6 psi low. Felt much better after I inflated them properly.

What changing the tire pressure does is essentially changes the spring rate and the tire contact patch. A higher pressure tire is stiffer than a low pressure tire. A low pressure tire has a bigger contact patch than a high pressure tire. This is also one of the ways how to adjust race cars cause its easy to do.