R4race

Yes I seen the pictures

but the pictures DO NOT PROVE ANYTHING but they do not use a strut bar, which only implies they feel it is not needed, not that it has A NEGATIVE HANDLING EFFECT. there is a big difference between the two.

once AGAIN I ask:
CAN YOU or anyone else PROVE that a strut bar has A NEGATIVE HANDLING EFFECT

AlphaJaguar5

I'm done.

I can't fix stupid.

Here's a link to buy one from one of our great supporting vendors, enjoy:

http://www.turbotechracing.com/produ...idproduct=2183

Area47

i have one for sale for cheaper!

Put name here

Strut bars DO have two huge benefits...there great place for people to put stickers and ziptie useless crap to...

AlphaJaguar5

Crap, I need a few more then!!!!

Area, I'll buy yours then. Name, do you have one I can get off of you?

I'm loosing space on my doors so I have to put my stickers somewhere!

Area47

i have paypal. send me money. you get stick bar in it's place

AlphaJaguar5

I keep getting this message:

Area47

thats because you're a hoser and using vista

AlphaJaguar5

Ever since I got SP1 Vista has rocked my socks.

Then again I have had almost every feature of Vista disabled since I bought my computer lol.

Maven

iTrader: (1)

I always love it when people resort to calling names.....I didnt call names or even personally attack you, yet you for some reason feel the need to do so to me......

Yes a rear anti-sway bar does have a anegative side effect, it reduces the natural tendency of the Cobalt to be tight/push/understeer and many people cant safely drive a car that is neutrally balanced or slightly tail happy(as the big bar on the market makes a Cobalt) Hows that for an argument for arguments sake.

Yes larger antisway bars improve Cobalt handling, the problem with them is that nobody test them. One company comes out with a 19mm bar, so another comes out with a 22mm bar because its bigger, and yet a third company comes out with the biggest bar, maybe if we all got together and came out with a 35mm bar it would be the best of all of them because its the biggest.


I have a larger front sway on my car, and I am working on a larger rear....so I guess I am at least as knowledgeable as the pro's you talk about.


hehe

WhiteSSBalt

Most car, evens with "highly developed" suspensions and chassis's could benefit from a strut bar.

qwikredline

Maven after a while you just gotta give up and leave them to it..sad really. These folks cant be helped...

Maven

iTrader: (1)

To the OP, Cyrusthevirus......Dont be upset that noone offers a strut bar for the SS/TC, be happy that theres one less product that will suck $125 out of your wallet and give you virtually nothing in return.

Spend your money on a day at an HPDE, or some driving shoes.

Rippin07

Im getting in on this now, YES a strut bar can improve handling, as long as it is not installed to tight laterally. Can it in any way reduce body roll, absolutelly, if you know how a bar is supposed to work, and you know how suspension works you can figure this out for yourself, if not RTFB!!
Now for the pictures in question regarding a strut bar, that is an epic post in failure!!! First not only does the car not have a strut bar due to the fact it has no mounting points for one because of the adjustabel camber/caster plates installed, but moreover the point is that this car already has a full cage installed which ties all the points of the car together improving handling by stopping body flex, allowing the suspension to fully do its job, funny none of you guys posted that???
Any time a point in the suspension is allowed to move without it being in the design, you are affecting your handling to the negative, and your strut towers do flex as there are thousands of pounds of force on them during hard cornering, this flex DOES NOT ALLOW the suspension to do its job properly as side loads are not part of a strut design. A bar prevents this movement allowing all the suspension force to be transmitted to the strut without the sideloads improving suspension geometry.
On to the point about bolt torque, yes they can snap easy and dont require alot of torque but you are not measuring the shear strength and the bar is there for side loading, when they snap it is not shear but over torque or twist of the stud causing the dammage, the shear strenght is much much higher and the bar does not deal with those forces, just lateral, hence shear.

Do most of these cars need one, NO because they never are driven to realize these extremes. So in that matter they lighten your wallet. However, they can improve the durability and life of your car as well as maintaining your wheel alignment over longer periods of time as they help the strut towers maintain their original positions over time and shitty roads. Its a fact that this deflection in strut towers happens over the years

qwikredline

even in Saskatoon this argument holds no water. Epic Fail. you have no load data to support your claims. GM engineering does. They determined that the Cobalt does not need a strut bar. All structure starts to wear out the moment you drive your new car over the curb. However the strut bar in this application is a total waste of time and energy.

Maven i said this thread was done, well I certainly am. What a load of c**p...yes our shop built the first 15 Cobalt/Ion race cars with cages. The rules do not permit roll cages past the firewall. We determined that this car based on engineering data and backed up by race testing did not need a strut bar. The Cadillac CTSV did need a strut bar. Look where the struts are, on the 04 -07 CTS V , far from the firewall. And whoever posted that Corvettes did not need a strut bar,well Corvettes dont have struts. As far as I am concerned, along with Alpha Maven et all the strut bar story is an epic fail. Hang your laundry on it

Maven

iTrader: (1)

How can a bar designed to transfer loads across the chassis work if it isnt installed tightly laterally? Are you suggesting a floating mount for the strut bar is the best design? If so, then you just proved the point that many here have been trying to make, bars you can buy for the Cobalt are worthless.
I've read the books and I dont see how a structure designed to reduce lateral deflection of suspension mounting points can increase a vehicles roll stiffness. Care to explain for those of here who dont have access to the books you read?
I was waitig for someone to make this point. While it seems valid, it too is flawed. Firstly lets talk about the fact that the car has cmaber plates. Camber plates do not preclude installation of a strut tower brace. These plates must be solidly fixed to the tower, and since they are solidly fixed, there is obviously a strong enough spot to mount the strut bar if necessary. Secondly you state that the cage ties all points of the car together.....well in the case of a Koni ST class car it doesnt. Per Grand-Am rule 6-1 regarding roll cage construction "The roll cage structure may not extend forward beyond the firewall" which means its not possible for the cage to strengthen or support the strut toweres in any way, so they still have the exact same amount of deflection relative to the body structure as possible with an unmodified car.
This all sounds fabulous....and yes flex is bad(its not due to sideloads keeping the struts from working as you put it but more that tower deflection alters alignments angles, and roll center) But lets look at what youve said. cornering loads are putting thousands of pounds of pressure on the strut towers, forcing them to move laterally, that is flex in or out relative to the centerline of the chassis. Right? So lets put a cross car brace in(a strut bar, like this thread is about) So does that solve your deflection problem if you have one??? Nope. What a cross car tower brace like this will actually do is transfer the force from the loaded tower acroos the car and force the other tower to deflect as well. How is that good? IF the cobalt actually exhibited amount of flex in the strut tower that were detrimental to handling, what you would want is a very stron bar that atteached solidly to at least two point on the tower, but not at the same level, one higher and one lower, this would be less likely to directly transfer any movement directly to the other tower, in the way that a floating/jointed bar or one that only mounted on one plane. Ideally what you would want to do though(if flex was an issue) would be not only to brace the towers against each other, but more importnatly to brace them on the diagnoal to the firewall(its all about triangles)
Like Qwik said, the CTS-V.R had braces, it does, triangle ones, AND it uses the engine as a partially stressed member of the suspension
See:

Yup, the shear strength is absolutley much higher than the tensile strength of virtually(if not all) metals used in vehicle construction., usually on the order of about 1000 times higher. So if a bar fails in tension at 10flbs, it would likely fail in shear at 10,000ftlbs!
But again youre missing some pretty critical points(and using incorrect terms). First the easiest one to see. If the bar is used to keep the towers from leaning in/out, that means that they are rocking back and forth, the top isnt moving parallel to the ground or the bar, it moves in an arc described by the dstance the top of the tower is away from its solid mounting points. It it moves in an arc, that means its also putting a great deal of tension on the little bolts, like lifting up on one end of the bar slightly as you pull. This can aid quite a bit in causing the bolt to fail beause not only do you have the single shear action of the bar, youve also got tension. And of course youve got the fact that these bars are all installed improperly, if you know there is a single shearing force on a bolt, you never install the part that causes the shear(the bar) on the threaded section.

The biggest point you are inaccurate on, is that bolts are stronger in shear strength than tensile strength. OH, WTF, I though you said they were 1000 times stronger!?!?!? Well, they are, the shear strength(or modulus) is much higher. But shear strength/modulus DOES NOT measure how strong a bolt is when it comes to resisting being cut, like it would be with a shear or a sway bar lateral load. Shear strength measures how strong a material is in resisting being pull apart parallel to is faces/axis, NOT perpendicular to to them, which is what you are talking about. The average garbage 5/16" grade2 bolt has a minimum tensile strength over well over 70ksi(1000's psi), youd be hard pressed to find a 5/16" bolt with a resistance to cutting of even 5ksi. Most are well under 1000psi.

buellfooll

I hope you don't plan on telling that to the guys at GM Performance after beating almost everything they put the 2008/9 Cobalt SS/TC against at the Nurbergring. This car needs NOTHING!! Only my humble opinion.

Rownan

despite the fact that the SS/TC is an excellent piece of GM engineering, the fact remains that it is an economy car and GM most certainly restrained themselves in various areas to make it drivable. If you honestly believe there is no place that it can be improved upon then you are fooling yourself.

GM may have opted out of additional strut support either because it didn't need it or because it sacrificed drivability.. but only they know..

R4race

your right, you can't fix YOUR stuipity
because apparently you can't read properly, what I so clearly stated TWICE already.

I WANT PROOF THAT STRUT BARSHAVE A NEGATIVE EFFECT ON HANDLING
(NOT PICTURES OF RACE CARS WITHOUT STRUT BARS)

no one has shown any

YOU have claimed a NEGATIVE EFFECT ON HANDLING and no one, not even yourself has come forward with ANY proof of this. It sure does SUCK being called out on that doesn't it?!

buellfooll

I'll stand by my statement. But I hear GM Performance is looking for some new blood. If you think you, or anybody you know, can make this "economy car" any faster around the worlds most famous road racing course there's a good job waiting at GM. As far as the SS/TC being an economy car? The SS/TC is anywhere from $4000 to $9000 more expensive than other trim levels of the Cobalt "economy car". I think a better description of the Cobalt "a reasonably priced race car" that out ran sports cars well over twice the price. Yes, you might improve on this car. At GREAT EXPENSE and lose of everyday drivability. Give credit where credit is due. To the engineers at GM Performance. Not the hackers on this forum.

Red07SSNA

Come on guys....all you're doing is helping to derail the aftermarket for our cars!!!!! Yes, the aftermarket makes money on these bars. If the aftermarket doesn't make money on the simple parts they sure as heck aren't going to spend engineering dollars on anything else -- it's too risky out there now.

Why did I buy a DC Sports strut bar? Because it looks good and fills in an empty space in the engine compartment!!!! I don't drive my Cobalt hard -- but I want it to look good. I sure as heck don't have the capabilty of making my own special parts so I need the aftermarket to make them.

These posts/threads aren't helping anybody that loves Cobalts! I want the aftermarket to continue to produce parts so I can continue to "personalize" my Cobalt and make it different from everybody else's!

qwikredline

you are right, good opinion to have results count....

buellfooll

I don't mean to put any aftermarket manufacturers out of business. My point, simply, is put your performance where your mouth is. Now I have to go and watch, with some dismay, Jimmy Johnson win the NASCAR championship. I'd rather see somebody else win but he is still pretty good. See ya!

Put name here

I first tried to secure bar with real strong electrical tape but that didnt hold...


but then i found the perfect location to bolt too...but now my car doesnt start.

qwikredline

hilarious good one!