surface area. nice

 

like i said....if you autox then this is an upgrade for you...constant braking. i would rather put in brake ducts but thats just me. anyone else would probably prefer brembos etc.

 

tell me you read the first half...
I kind of explained why larger calipers/rotors wont change your 60-0 in that half. Tis is an upgrade against brake fading, which is what ALL brake upgrades are. I will bet you one MILLION dollars that a car with a big brake kit will not stop any faster than a car with drums all around.

 

wrong. I did not. and BTW the leverage changes. just another detail. read the posts. Used since 2004 in development and racing...quality rotors made in the USA. Floating rotors. comon.... and yes tires are the limiting factor in stopping once fade, balance etc is figured out. The OTTP pricing will be reasonable I am sure, hasnt Josh proven that?

 

Price is going to be the biggest thing for this. As much as a nice upgrade this will be... If it cost the same as a competing "Big Brake" upgrade, then you would be stupid to choose this over the ladder.

The Time Attack Cobalt is definitely nice, but it isn't the be all and end all of Cobalts.

Not hatin', just sayin'.

 

The rotor shown by Maven has done 1500 race track miles and 6000 street miles....

 

how much

 

the pricing will be a few days away but something to consider. The cost of the brackets and hats for the conversion are a one time cost. After that, the rotor is a bolt on replacement the hats and brackets remain. I would expect 2 to 3 years on a set of rotors, on the street, considering the ones maven has are a year old and pretty much perfect imho

the pricing will be a few days away but something to consider. The cost of the brackets and hats for the conversion are a one time cost. After that, the rotor is a bolt on replacement the hats and brackets remain. I would expect 2 to 3 years on a set of rotors, assuming reasonable use and no rust from lack of same, and considering the ones maven has are a year old and pretty much perfect imho

 

The time attack cobalt didn't need to come to a complete stop instantly plus runs are done solo.

Time attack cobalt

Random Link http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...Unlimited.aspx

 

These will be as streetable as you choose to make them, with stock or cheapy pads they will make a nice upgrade and give you the same braking power with less effort, and have more in reserve if needed, if you start running serious pads(HP+, Porterfield R4i, Carbotech 1106/1108, etc) these will offer absolutely exceptional stopping with no compromises.

Yes of course a bigger rotor weighs more, thats kind of the point. BUT this rotor will weigh less than a comparably sized single piece rotor, due to its aluminum hat) So you get the benefit of the increased swept area, and increased mass, but without as much excess weight.

A "bigger" caliper(larger piston area) is going to seriously affect pedal travel(make it longer) brake bias(way too much front brake) and modulation(harder to control) a "bigger" caliper isnt what you want. A multi piston caliper does have its advantages, but on the street, which is where we and you in particular are talking about, there is nothing that can beat the strength and longevity of the factory caliper.

Surface area? sure youre right, large pad surface area is a good thing....the stock LSJ spec pad has a very reasonably sized area, several common multipiston calipers actually have LESS pad area. Its odd that you touched on pad area but completely ignored the other key ingredient in braking surface area, the rotor, the rotor has just as much if not more to do with swept(actually braking area) area than the pads. Simply making the rotor larger in diameter increases swept area, or gives you more braking surface. and it also gives you more leverage. As pointed out before XXX clamping force at XXX friction level, on an 11.65" rotor wont stop you as fast as the same clamping force and friction level applied to a 12.24" rotor. Again, this is the basic physics you talk about.

Even IF the only thing it did was increase heat dissipation(which I am pretty sure is the very definition of a brake system ) it would still offer safer driving on the street because it would allow you more reliable complete stops.

I agree that big power require big brakes, but here is a question for you. How many guys with the 400hp that you talk about are running around stopping from 140mph on a regular basis???? All of them you say right? Yeah I know there are blasts down the LIE and other long straight roads, and i am sure these guys have hit 160mph, and obviously they need good brakes.....but slowing down from 160 maybe 2 or 3 times a night isnt by any means a regualr basis.......I would say heavy braking would be considered slowing down from 140mph once every 2 minutes constantly for 2.5hrs, any of you big power guys do that????? Didnt think so. The "low power" 235hp Koni Challenge cars do....and this is enough brake for them(actually if you ask the people they beat its too much brake )

I agree price will be key, and this will be priced very closely to similarly sized kits, and many hundreds of dollars cheaper than any kit with same sized floating rotors.

And you are correct the Time Attack car isnt the end and be all, I just reference it because these were used on it, they are also used on the Koni cars, which are imo the Balts with the highest braking demands out there......I'd love to see anyone argue otherwise.

How often do you do instant complete stops? Could you explain how the need to come to a complete stop somehow affects the design or function of a brake system? IE is it harder to stop from 80-0 or from 130-50 with the same level of deceleration?

 

will this fit a hhr ls 06 5bolt?

 

Yes, it will fit for any vehicle with 5x110 lug pattern and 296mm rotors, so thats SS/2.4, SS/SC, IRL, HHR w/o Brembos, 04-newer Malibu, Aura, and G6s with 296 rotors, Solstice and Sky(wheel clearance not verified on Sky/Solstice, will not clear most 16s on any of the vehicles)

 

I've seen the mention of increased leverage on the rotor and therefore more braking torque. How does this affect the brake bias?

 

Allot of you guys can sit here and argue all day long about these not making a difference but what you should be asking yourself is how they can.

Bigger rotor stock caliper: same brake pad surface to get hot right? Yes, but at the same time you have more rotor to get warm witch intern in the grand scheme of things will keep the same old stock brake pad cooler longer. I may or may not have had a little bit to drink at this time but the easiest way I can tell you to put this theory to work is to take you finger and rub it as fast as you can on a flat smooth surface in a .5" circle for as long as you can and see how much heat you build up. Then take the same finger(granted you didn't rub your skin off and create a blister) and rub it on the same surface in a 6" circle for as long as you can. Witch one do you think you can do for longer?

So the bigger rotor(over stock) in theory will keep the same stock pad cooler longer due to the fact that it has more surface area to go over, and that bigger surface area will have more time to cool before it comes in contact with the pad again. I agree with the whole tire thing and am not even going to get into that due to the fact that 3rd graders understand that. This set up WILL work, its common since. The big picture is: How much is this going to cost and how much will it benefit me for my driving style. I am sorry for the ramble I just hope that even I can descifrar threw my belligerent haze and find some truth in the matter that I type.

 

Will these fit the TC? Don't the TC's have a 312 mm disc in front? Can't imagine 1mm would be a horrible difference.

Might have my numbers off though... its late and I'm tired.

 

too bad you haven't spoken with the guy that actually built the car to really know what it put down

 

to add emphasis to this last point, 130-50 would be significantly harder on your braking system than 80-0, since kinetic energy is exponentially derived from velocity. If i remember correctly, its Energy=(Mass) x (Velocity)˛, or E=MV˛

 

oo **** this thread is just full of wonderfulness...

there is more to big rotors than everyone thinks.

if you cant get a bolt off what do you do? you get a longer leverage arm

were gonna assume 1000LBs of Force


Stock T=148*1000 T=148000ft/lbs

OTTP T=155.5*1000 T=155500ft/lbs

Thasts a 5% increase in braking force alone...

then the fact that there is a larger surface area of pad to rotor.

 

It will like virtually any big brake upgrade increase the front bias of the system. Going from stock 11.65" to these 12.24" rotors with the same pads and same pedal pressure will increases front bias by just shy of 6%. Well within what is normally considered safe amount of bias to add to a street car, even without ABS, with the ABS these cars have it is a non issue.

TCs have 315.5mm rotors, these wont fit. If enough people want floating rotor upgrade for the TC they will probably come out.

Yup.




Lets play with some more numbers since you guys like to throw physics and stuff out there, we'll keep it simple but very relevant.

All numbers are purposefully random, but are constants. IE: Same pad coeffiecient of friction, same line pressure, and appropriate effective radii are used as required.

SO.

Stock LSJ brakes with XXX pads, and XXX line pressure, our base line, creates: 375ftlbs axle torque.

Hardcore rotors with same exact pads and same exac line pressure as stock creates: 398ftlbs axle torque. a 5.7% increase with merely a rotor change.

Most common Wilwood(and similar)type brake kit with 4piston caliper and 12.19" rotor, same pad friction as above, same line pressure as above: 380ftlbs axle torque. A mere 1.3% increase in torque, but with a thinner rotor than stock arguably a downgrade.

Wilwood DP6 and similar brake kits with 13" rotor, same line pressure, same pad friction: 419ftlbs torque. an increase of 5.1% over the Hardcore setup. This increase comes at a cost of many hundreds of dollars, possible wheel clearance issues, and reduced ease of serviceability, not to mention the without the benefits of the true floating rotor setup. If you needed that extra 5.1% the 6pots provide but couldnt or wouldnt use/afford them or the wheels they may need, a simple pad swap would gain that for you(as little as .025 higher cF on the pad in the Harcore kit would have it creating more torque than the 13" 6pot with our baseline pads.

(yes i know you could use that same logic and go in circles forever putting better pads on each system, put the point is pads are cheaper than calipers, and not everyone wants the look of the big calipers)

 

yea...i figured up the % difference but my numbers are way bigger to show the change more easily

 

subd

 

Thanks. Placing these on my list.

 

im so in on this!!!!

 

Alot of interesting info to read and consider here

 

Sergio if you want you can (when the kit is ready) buy it up here in Canada, and thats okay with Josh....save a ton of aggro with the border and exchange etc...Josh can give you my email....