Originally Posted by pkskull77

Although the profit loss numbers aren't readily available, the fact that Pontiac doesn't have a replacement for the GTO, or another car that is selling, speaks volumes about how far in the red GTO was. With the state of Pontiac and GM in general, if the car was making any money, or was mildly popular they would have made the adjustments necessary to bring it to spec. In other words, if people where buying it, they would have kept it around, because it would bring people into the show room.

The fact that GM took one of its trump cards and went half-a** on it is a shame. The cars history, and loyal following was going to bring it instant attention, and they knew this. Dealers were gouging the heck out of the car when it was released, and after people got ripped off, they were disappointed by the performance.

I strongly disagree with you on the demographics not being shared between these cars. The GTO, STI and EVO are 30,000 dollar sports cars. Although their styling is different they are both targeted at the same crowd.

Are some people die hard American, and others Die Hard Japanese, absolutely. It's the crowd in the middle everyone is shooting for, because you've already got your “die hards” on board. When people were torn, they went with the EVO and STI. Why? They are better sports cars, 50 or 100 hp aside.

I was one of a middle of the roaders, I really wanted to go American so I could help the economy, but I was not willing to sacrifice performance and reliability for patriotism. I have driven all three cars, and trust me when I say you can feel a difference. The balance of the EVO and STI is far better. The GTO, pushed you back in your seat, but the car felt heavy, and that’s because it was. Nice interiors are cool for about a week, after that its all about the performace, and despite the HP advantage both the STI and EVO are much better performers.

If you would step outside your bias and look at the facts you would agree with me. Go on the web and try to find an unbiased opinion that will state that the GTO is a better car. Good luck, your not going to find one.

Originally Posted by wesmanw02

I don't have a bias, I just think that the GTO is the better car, and if it were my money, that would no doubt be my choice.

Originally Posted by pkskull77

The problem is that you argue from your opinion, and generally don't state it as such. On paper the STI is a better all around sports car. There is no debate, none. You will not find an unbiased opinion that states differently. Search all of the web, if they pick a GTO it's becuase they are on the GM payroll, or are waxing poetic about American Muscle. If your planning on buying new GTO, I would hurry up, even the leftovers are getting scarse.

Pontiac/GM should have started fresh with the GTO. If the car had been a better product I gaurantee it would have been a real winner. The nastalgic look is in right now, and what GM Muscle car had more of a following than the GTO. Unfotunately they approached the situation with yesterdays thinking, and they've soilded the name. Next time a GTO is released they hype will be gone.

The answer now-a-days in the 30+ market is not to drop a bigger motor in a tired platform (eg 350-400 when things aren't going well). You build it light, and you build it well balanced, or else you won't be building it for long. Today's consomers are not satisfied with lots of leather and a bigger motor. They want a well balanced, corner hugging machine. YES, people are willing to sacrifice looks and comfort for these things.

With hundreds of car magazines, and even more websites, people are reading more before they buy. Consumers are more educated, and influnced by proffesionals. Proffesionals who generally prefer the complete driving experience rather than just MUSCLE and TRAP TIMES.

Originally Posted by wesmanw02

Sorry to inform you, but there is in fact a "debate" about which is the better sports car. Its your opinion that the STi is better, not a fact. I personally think the GTO is better, and would never even consider buying a 4-banger sedan with a huge ricer wing as a sports car. To me thats just plain ridiculous. But to each his own.

Originally Posted by pkskull77

Debates should be grounded in fact or professional opinion, and not in personal opinion. Any debated based solely on the "I thinks" is irrelevant. If we are debating different sides of an argument I already know what “you think.”

As for 2009, well that’s a heck of a long ways away. From what I've seen of the car, it should be fantastic. However, the other cars on the market will be better too, so it may be a bit premature to make statements like "undebatebly better sports car."

Furthermore this car is all concepts, and a heck of a lot ususally gets culled out between concept and production. I have seen quite a few cars that looked fantastic in concept, and ended up being bombs in production.

Finally, with the way GM is headed, 2009 might be a stretch. By that time someone else might own the company, and they may not be to keen on the Camaro. Bottom line? Don't hold your breath on this car.