Many people think that manual is better than an automatic.but contrary to popular belief it is indeed not. if you can find a torque converter fitted to the enignes powerband it'll be more effective than having a manual transmission. not to mention auto's are more reliable and consistent in drag racing. i personally am getting the automatic cause i plan to throw a converter in it, along with my 75 shot i will prolly run somewhere around a 13.8, i plan to do so in a sedan as well. well what yall think, i know theres gonna be people who say it cant be done...

One isnt better than the other, its all about driver preference and who can drive good. Its nice to see someone take a stand and get an auto when so many people get ragged on for it by uneducated people. good luck with the mods !

i have nothing against autos, my cavelier was an auto. although personally i prefer a stick cause thats what i learned to drive on and i find it to be the most fun.

nothing against autos, but they are boring. The one real advantage I see that Manual has over auto is you can change the gears on demand

Yeah I have the 4 speed auto in my 02' cavy and if you use it right it hauls... on the other hand driving a stick is just much more fun...

Sorry but I completely disagree. It all comes down to the basic design, and autos were never designed for performance. Look in any car mag, and whenever they test two versions of a car, the manual is (99% of the time) faster. You can't argue with physics, manual transmissions are just better suited to performance by design.

If you understand how an automatic trans actually works, the design issues become apparent. First off, autos use a Torque Converter instead of a clutch - problem number one. Torque converters are generally very heavy (compared to clutches, which are light) and they are not in the least bit efficient. Since TC's are constantly in a state of slippage, they never put 100% of the power to the ground. And anybody knows that Slippage = Wasted Energy :rolleyes: . But of course people always mention the "torque multiplying" capabilities - somewhat of a myth. The only reason TC's can "multiply torque" is because they allow the engine to spin faster than the output side of the Torque converter. The same thing can be accomplished by slipping the clutch in an manual at a high RPM, but I wouldn't try it ;)

As for shifting - another so-so design. Automatic transmissions shift by applying hydralic pressure planetary gearsets, which engage and disengage different ratios. Unfortunately this results in extreme heat buildup under hard operating conditions, and its also the reason that many automatics begin to slip after 100K miles.

So what is comes down to is that autos are good for "consistantcy" - and thats about it - besides that they are pretty much useless from a performance aspect.

Of course in the not so-distant future chances are the conventional TC automatic will no longer exist. It will be replaced by the Sequential Manual, which is by far a much better design, from both an efficiency and performance standpoint :cool:

^ ^ ^ the toyota MR-s has a sequential manual.

As well in most cars the manual has more gears allowing the engine to stay in its powerband.

I prefer a manual, just because you feel more in control of the car, like you are actually driving it instead of a more passive driving experience in an auto.

To wesman, i agree stock for stock manuals will win. but once you get into the big power numbers, manuals will slow you down. autos can shift faster or almost just as fast as a human, not to mention you lose time shifting gears if your not a good driver. If your making power its a proven fact autos will put the power to the ground better. Good example is all the pro stock cars and all that run autos, and dragsters use the powerglide which is a 2spd auto. its obvious autos have there place in racing, but i guess most people will never get into that kinda power to use the auto but oh well. its what im getting and im gonna have fun

I like manual myself. It's totally a preference issue in my opinion. My fiance thinks I am stupid for shift when I can get an option to do it for me :)

if its the same tranny and gears, auto might be faster in the 1/4 mile
but since manual trannies get diff gears and such, they are faster for acceleration
take 2 cars and race em side by side, manual always beats it off the line with a GOOD DRIVER
auto is used for all out speed cars cuz its more consistant
i prefer manual cuz i can switch up gears and shift to my preference

Straight line out all speed the manual will be faster, simply physics as it puts more power down via direct connection. Auto is mroe consistant and better for drag racing, but manual is the only option for driving with turns.


Take the GTO, same rear gears for the auto/manual, 6 speed vs. 4. Run almost identicle times, but the downfall of the auto is it gets worse gas milliage.

Interesting enough, the new 2005 Mustang GT both the auto and manual run like 5.1 seconds to 60mph. Motor Trend was saying that they really took the time to make the auto just as good as the manual. I do agree though that automatic is usually slower in cars 99% of the time.

I do agree though that automatic is usually slower in cars 99% of the time.

That is because factory automatics are designed to shift smoothly.
Since manuals require manual intervention, you can shift them in
any way you want. Throw a shift kit into an automatic and they're
the best bet for straight line drag racing. The only reason I would
want a manual would be for autocrossing or a vehicle with a really
high powerband. I definately would not want one for daily driving.

Auto transmissions are for girls....J/K but IMO manual is much more fun plus it saves brake wear and it gives you much more control over the speed of the car. This is all true unless you have a bad driverat the wheel.

The only reason I would
want a manual would be for autocrossing or a vehicle with a really
high powerband. I definately would not want one for daily driving.

I live in Houston, which routinely makes the Top 5 most congested US cities list, and I drive a manual.

My biggest problem with auto's is that when I'm ready to pass, I'm already in the gear, high in the powerband, and ready to go when my chance comes. With an auto, there's that terrible 1-3 second delay where the damn thing has to kick down 2-3 gears, usually including disengaging to torque converter. :mad:

My next car will be a manual too. :)

Hmm I've driven autos all my driving life and have never had a problem with passing. Although I have heard Manuals are better on brake life, gas consumption, when of course you have a driver who knows how to drive it.

Have you guys priced a clutch replacement vs brake pad replacement?
Why would anyone want to use a clutch to replace their cheap brakes?
And if 1-2 seconds hurts your passing ability, you probably should take
driver's education again and learn how to drive responsibly.

An automatic with a good shift kit rules all. End of story. :)

Auto has usually only 4 gears where a manual has 5 or 6. So you can spend more time in the powerband of the engine. I know auto transmissions are catching up in that respect (more than 4 gears), which is good. So problem solved in that respect.

As for the engine breaking, being able to use the engine to brake isn't a bad thing. It's a good thing.

In my S10 I got about 55k out of a set of pads on my manual S10 and about 25k out of the pads on my auto S10. Thats like twice the life. If your burning up the clutch on your car engine breaking then your not doing something right. You won't believe all the times I can slow down using the engine where with an auto I would have to use the brakes. It just cuts down on braking overall.

I think a major problem with auto is the shift points and firmness, which can be fixed with a shift kit as someone mentioned, but it can also be fixed with a manual transmission.

For me having a manual gear box is all about controlling the car and the driving experience. It's not a price, performance choice for me it's a control thing. Even the autosticks still don't let you have full control of the car.

automatics are a big waste of time. manaul is soooooo much better.

^^^WHy do you laugh.... when was the last time you drive in my car... never... thast right SHUT IT

Have you guys priced a clutch replacement vs brake pad replacement?
Why would anyone want to use a clutch to replace their cheap brakes?

Exactly what I was going to post..


And if 1-2 seconds hurts your passing ability, you probably should take
driver's education again and learn how to drive responsibly.

I didn't mean it like that. It's just annoying to have to floor the car (slight exaggeration) to get it downshift. And I mean in traffic going one way, not two-way.

Here is an interesting way to look at it.

I have driven manual since I was 16.......that's 19 years. I am a good driver and I know when to shift....I don't even look at the tac's I just know when to shift by the sound of the engine. It's interesting to note that an experienced driver realizes that the car becomes an extention of your own body. Not only on the inside but on the outside as well. That is to say you know where the bumpers are in relation to other obsticles. That being said, a driver of a manual car is, in my opinion, more aware of his/her surroundings as well as being in total control of the vehicle. I wonder what stats there are on accidents with manual vs. auto in relation to driver experience!!!!!

Have you guys priced a clutch replacement vs brake pad replacement?
Why would anyone want to use a clutch to replace their cheap brakes?
And if 1-2 seconds hurts your passing ability, you probably should take
driver's education again and learn how to drive responsibly.

As Zinner said, you are exaggerating the "brakes vs. clutch" thing. Anyone who knows how to properly drive manual knows how to gear down properly and match revs if needed. My family had a 1990 Honda Accord 5-speed, and both my parents downshifted whenever they were coming to stop. We sold the car with 194,000 miles on it, and the clutch was still good. So much for that theory :rolleyes:

An automatic with a good shift kit rules all. End of story. :)

Totally not true at all. You need to understand that the origin of the automatic was not performance, it was built for conveinance. Therefore, the internals were never designed with performance in mind, and the basic design has not changed significantly over the years. Autos have one performance aspect, and one only: consistancy. But where is the skill in that? Anyone can get in a car, stick in in "D", and mash the gas to the floor. No skill involved whatsoever, no connection between driver and vehicle.

If autos are so much better, than why do real car enthusiasts prefer manual? Why do manufacturers such as Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche only offer manual transmissions on their best models? Its no coincidence - the fact is that manual is the best choice for performance, control, fuel economy, maintenance, cost efficiency, and most of all - fun :cool:

If manuals are so much better, why arent they on funny cars, dragsters, pro stock etc. ? Cause they lose time shifting thorugh all the gears. And autos dont misshift like some people do. I agree manuals are more sporty and fun to drive but when u have lots of power, auto will put it down to the ground better than a manual will, end of story hence the high hp cars mentioned above.

If manuals are so much better, why arent they on funny cars, dragsters, pro stock etc. ? Cause they lose time shifting thorugh all the gears. And autos dont misshift like some people do. I agree manuals are more sporty and fun to drive but when u have lots of power, auto will put it down to the ground better than a manual will, end of story hence the high hp cars mentioned above.


hahaa, just remember, ignorance is bliss

If manuals are so much better, why arent they on funny cars, dragsters, pro stock etc. ? Cause they lose time shifting thorugh all the gears. And autos dont misshift like some people do. I agree manuals are more sporty and fun to drive but when u have lots of power, auto will put it down to the ground better than a manual will, end of story hence the high hp cars mentioned above.

Okay... but how many people on this forum (or any normal car forum) drive funny cars, dragsters, and pro stock cars?? Chances are, ZERO :p:

Those vehicles are the extreme minority. In a normal car, a manual transmssion is just a better choice than an automatic, unless of course you live in the city.

Also, a torque converter automatic will never put power to the ground more efficiently than a traditional manual transmission with a clutch. Its impossible, due to the fact that torque converters are always slipping by design, whereas in a manual there is a direct connection between the engine and the drive wheels ;)

Okay... but how many people on this forum (or any normal car forum) drive funny cars, dragsters, and pro stock cars?? Chances are, ZERO :p:

Those vehicles are the extreme minority. In a normal car, a manual transmssion is just a better choice than an automatic, unless of course you live in the city.

Also, a torque converter automatic will never put power to the ground more efficiently than a traditional manual transmission with a clutch. Its impossible, due to the fact that torque converters are always slipping by design, whereas in a manual there is a direct connection between the engine and the drive wheels ;)

Why would living in the city affect your choice?????

If manuals are so much better, why arent they on funny cars, dragsters, pro stock etc. ? Cause they lose time shifting thorugh all the gears. And autos dont misshift like some people do. I agree manuals are more sporty and fun to drive but when u have lots of power, auto will put it down to the ground better than a manual will, end of story hence the high hp cars mentioned above.

Top Fuel, and probably Funny Cars, do not use automatics either.
I believe they use a direct drive with just a bunch of cluthes that
they burn up going down the track. No shifting is involved at all.

Why would living in the city affect your choice?????

In the city an AUTO is easier becuase its one less thing to worry about... so you can concentrate on not getting hit by a taxi.

You need to understand that the origin of the automatic was not performance, it was built for conveinance.

And manuals were built for performance? I do not know the history, but they were probably made before they knew how to build automatics. I doubt the first manual trannies were manuals because the builders wanted something more performance oriented. And you have got to be joking if you think manuals are "tougher" than automatics, because usually it's automatics that can handle higher power outputs.

Autos have one performance aspect, and one only: consistancy.

Consistency is what wins races. That is why SERIOUS drag racers use well-built automatics. And automatics also provide torque multiplication. More useful in trucks, but I can imagine it helps on the track, too. Every time I read about guys building up drag cars, they eventually switch over to an automatic when they get serious enough.

Why do manufacturers such as Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche only offer manual transmissions on their best models?

Ferrari does offer automatics. :) I'm not saying that manuals do not offer a more sporty driving experience. They do. That is why "sports cars" usually come with them.

For corner carving and road racing, I would want a manual. Automatics suck for that. For the drag strip, trucking/towing and daily driving, I would want an automatic.

I have nothing against manuals. I do have something against people who think that a manual tranny is God's gift to the automotive industry. They are nice for certain applications, but they are not the best choice across the board.

^^^ werd. he clarified some of what i was thinking. i meant for drag racing purposes i believe auto is best as its more consistent than manual. im not talkin auto-xing or anything else. stock for stock an auto would most likely lose, but if modded i believe the auto would win...and yes i understand torque converters arent the most efficient because they slip, but if you ever been in a car with one youd understand what i mean. once you hit the throttle, it almost instantaneously stalls to what kinda stall speed you installed as where a manual just climbs through the revs.

For all around fun and enjoyment and really being in the driver seat manual is it period. You can sit on a rocket and break the sound barrier but if you can read a newspaper while your going in a straight line then that is just pointless to me. Why even put a driver in the seat. Just get a remote control and push a button.............and see!!!, my car is faster than yours!! Big deal, no effort there just put alot of money into it!!!

Why even put a driver in the seat. Just get a remote control and push a button.............and see!!!, my car is faster than yours!! Big deal, no effort there just put alot of money into it!!!

You seem to be more worried about "doing something" other than trying
to win the race. If you want to consistently win, you will use the auto. :)

Like I said, the best tranny is based on your application. If you want to
consistently win drag races, you get a well-built automatic. If you have
a desire to have a "more interactive driving experience", get the manual.

PS- A lot of money? $125 TransGo Shift Kit and your automatic LS1 will
hang (or likely beat) about any 6-speed LS1. Hell, throw another $2-300
for an aftermarket torque converter and toast any/all 6-speed cars. That
is not a lot of money and you will piss off a bunch of manual guys. :bow:

I have nothing against manuals. I do have something against people who think that a manual tranny is God's gift to the automotive industry. They are nice for certain applications, but they are not the best choice across the board.

I was molested by an automatic transmission when I was a child so I can never have an auto in any car I own. :lol: :lol: God the pain!

There is one thing that has not really been brought up in this entire debate......overall durability. If you take an auto and manual tranny (both stock), You can almost be assured (Obviously there are SOME exceptions) that somewhere soon after 100k miles, you will have to rebuild an auto. With a manual, sure you may have to replace the clutch, but lets compare the price of a clutch job to the price to rebuild an auto tranny....no comparison. The manual wins in this situation most all of the time. I will however agree that for consistancy, you cant beat an auto.

There is one thing that has not really been brought up in this entire debate......overall durability. If you take an auto and manual tranny (both stock), You can almost be assured (Obviously there are SOME exceptions) that somewhere soon after 100k miles, you will have to rebuild an auto. With a manual, sure you may have to replace the clutch, but lets compare the price of a clutch job to the price to rebuild an auto tranny....no comparison. The manual wins in this situation most all of the time. I will however agree that for consistancy, you cant beat an auto.

Very true AUTO's will start to slip and fall apart after about 100k

Its not so much that the tranny just falls apart. if how u take care of it and such. if your always on the throttle and not changin the fluid etc. yea, i think itll be toast by 100k

What kind of junk trannies are you guys talking about? We usually sell off our vehicles by the time they reach 130K miles or so, and the autos are always still working great. My dad's old Grand Am went 120K before the timing gears gave out (tranny was still okay). We sold a Corsica at 130K and it still shifted like new (teenager "neutral drops" and all during its lifespan). My Grand Am has 114K and still shifts real firm. My dad sold an Astro van to a friend. Last I heard, it had 220K on the factory auto.

The whole notion that an automatic only lasts 100K is an urban legend. The only people that I usually see with autos that do not last long are guys running well above stock power levels. Usually people can blow up their manuals with excessive power, too (eg- Mustang T-5s). Actually, my buddy blew up the manual in his Saturn with a bone stock engine, because he was "performance" driving in a car without a "performance" built manual.

You will notice the SS comes with a different manual than the normal Cobalts. Know why? Because the power output of the SS would probably toast their normal, economy manual. Manuals are not all performance designed. They're usually economically designed, so they are not going to be very durable under high power or performance driving. Unless, of course, you get a car with a HD manual tranny from the factory.

Urban legends... ;)

Honestly man I think that auto is for people that can't drive. Not to mention i have never heard of a car with auto being faster than the same car with manual. Manual is also cheaper. Driving these days with auto is so boring takes the fun out of driving not to mention u dont feel the car perform and get a feel for your car with an auto but It is convenient!

Honestly man I think that auto is for people that can't drive.

That is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard anyone say.

Not to mention i have never heard of a car with auto being faster than the same car with manual.

You do not get out much, huh? Autos with shift kits own manuals.
(Well, in drag racing. In road racing you would want the manual.)

Driving these days with auto is so boring takes the fun out of driving not to mention u dont feel the car perform and get a feel for your car with an auto but It is convenient!

You apparently have never driven a high power car with built auto.
Grabbing rubber in 3rd in an automatic is a -seriously cool- feeling.

My brother in-law has an 04 stratus RT w/ auto stick. That damn car has a quick ass shift time, I wish they made auto sticks for the ss!!

I just picked up my Black LS coupe on Friday. I got the LS because I wanted the auto. They had an SS/SC on the lot I could have gotten, but I really wanted the auto. The auto will definitely hold up if you take care of them. I have a 97 Sierra with 250,000, a 2001 Tahoe with 200,000, and just sold a 97 Grand Am with 205,000 never had a seconds trouble with the transmissions on any of them.

You seem to be more worried about "doing something" other than trying
to win the race. If you want to consistently win, you will use the auto. :)

Like I said, the best tranny is based on your application. If you want to
consistently win drag races, you get a well-built automatic. If you have
a desire to have a "more interactive driving experience", get the manual.

PS- A lot of money? $125 TransGo Shift Kit and your automatic LS1 will
hang (or likely beat) about any 6-speed LS1. Hell, throw another $2-300
for an aftermarket torque converter and toast any/all 6-speed cars. That
is not a lot of money and you will piss off a bunch of manual guys. :bow:

I guess, from reading my posts, you've noticed that I don't intend to have a fast car I would only race in a straight line. There are two camps here and each have their own interesting and exciting things about them. I'm in the manual camp with a."more interactive driving experience". It's not about winning the race if you want to arrive alive and really be in control your car.

Im with thehemi, my co worker has 900 hp camaro with an auto and he completely looses the rear end on the 1st to 2nd upshift, and the 2nd to 3rd just slighty gets squirrelly. so its all about the power. autos are extremely useful in high horsepower applications where youd just loose traction with a high horsepower vehicle with a manual trans. Thehemi makes many good points about autos....yall should listen to him.

And manuals were built for performance? I do not know the history, but they were probably made before they knew how to build automatics. I doubt the first manual trannies were manuals because the builders wanted something more performance oriented. And you have got to be joking if you think manuals are "tougher" than automatics, because usually it's automatics that can handle higher power outputs.

Totally not true. Historically, manual transmissions were used on vehicles because they were simple, reliable, and got the job done. It wasn't about performance (as you said), and the only reason that the automatic transmission was ever designed was for conveinance. Lazy Americans didn't feel like shifting, hence the origination of the slushbox.

As for durability, automatics are a joke. Do you have any idea how many automatics have been recalled over the years becuase the couldn't handle the stock output of the vehicle in which they were installed? Autos are weaker by design, anything that allows internal slippage and creates friction/heat is not a good design durability wise. A manual trans with a strong set of cogs is all but unbreakable - and if you did somehow manage to break something, it involves replacing a few parts - not rebuilding the whole transmission as in an auto, whcih usually give out slowly and begin to slip under stress.


Consistency is what wins races. That is why SERIOUS drag racers use well-built automatics. And automatics also provide torque multiplication. More useful in trucks, but I can imagine it helps on the track, too. Every time I read about guys building up drag cars, they eventually switch over to an automatic when they get serious enough.

The only reason professional drag racers use built up autos is for consistancy and automated shifts. Obviously one can't miss a shift in an auto, and pro drag cars have so much power that it is humanly impossible to shift a manual fast enough. But those are the only 2 advantages.

I'll say it once more in case you didn't read it the first time: There is really no such thing as "torque multiplication". It is a myth, torque converters don't actually "multiply torque". All they do is allow the engine to spin faster than the transmission output shaft, therefore allowing the engine to produce its peak torque at a low speed or a stop. The same thing can be accomplished by slipping the clutch from a stop on a manual, its no revelation.

Ferrari does offer automatics. :) I'm not saying that manuals do not offer a more sporty driving experience. They do. That is why "sports cars" usually come with them.

For corner carving and road racing, I would want a manual. Automatics suck for that. For the drag strip, trucking/towing and daily driving, I would want an automatic.

I have nothing against manuals. I do have something against people who think that a manual tranny is God's gift to the automotive industry. They are nice for certain applications, but they are not the best choice across the board.

Well I'm going to have to disagree with you there too. You're right that manuals do offer a much sportier driving experience, but the only disadvantage is city driving. Manuals are better for sports cars, circuit racing, autocross, drag racing (non-pro) - and, in my opinion, daily driving as well. Manuals are also better in trucks and for towing - take a look in any Medium Duty Rig, and chances are it wil be manual. I would know, i'm around them all day at work. Also notice that Chevy, Ford, and Dodge all offer 6-speed manuals in their heavy duty 1-ton dually trucks - which are primarily used for towing ;)

The bottom line is that manuals are - in reality - better than autos in everything except "consistancy" and "pro drag racing" - which applies no zero people on here anyway :cool:

Totally not true. Historically, manual transmissions were used on vehicles because they were simple, reliable, and got the job done.

Manual transmissions were used because they did not know how to
build an automatic when they started. I think it was not until late in
the 1930s or early 1940s that automatics were developed enough to
put into production.

As for durability, automatics are a joke. Do you have any idea how many automatics have been recalled over the years becuase the couldn't handle the stock output of the vehicle in which they were installed?

I would not keep buying GMs with automatics if any of them were as
bad as you claim. I have never had a problem with a GM automatic.
Every vehicle we have owned has easily gone 130K without problems.
There might have been a bad design or two on occasion, but that has
been an issue with all facets of production, not just transmissions.

A manual trans with a strong set of cogs is all but unbreakable - and if you did somehow manage to break something, it involves replacing a few parts - not rebuilding the whole transmission as in an auto, whcih usually give out slowly and begin to slip under stress.

Yeah, with a strong set of cogs. Of course a HD manual is real strong.
I promise that a HD automatic is bulletproof, too. And who said you've
got to rebuild an entire automatic if one gear fails? That's not true, it's
just that's it's more convenient to rebuild everything while it's out. Why
would I tear open a manual and rebuild one gear? I'd do them all, too.

The only reason professional drag racers use built up autos is for consistancy and automated shifts.

Damn consistency in racing! :lol:

The bottom line is that manuals are - in reality - better than autos in everything except "consistancy" and "pro drag racing" - which applies no zero people on here anyway :cool:

You do not need to be a pro drag racer to take advantage of consistency.
I'm not saying the automatic is the best transmission either, I'm saying it
depends on the purpose and a bunch on personal preference. I would not
want to commute, drag race or tow without an automatic. IMHO. :)

I actually prefer driving cars with a manual tranny. I find them much more fun to drive and I feel more in control. If anything, my second bet would be going with an AutoStick tranny. I know they don't make them for the SS, but I have an 04 Spyder Eclipse GT with an AutoStick and I would assume you can get more power before each shift because you have that control over it. They're fun too when you want the power, but definately don't compare with a stick in my book...

Isn't it really just a matter of preference at this point? The automatic transmission has advanced to the point that it is as reliable as a manual. It's a shame Chevy hasn't seen fit to offer the SS/SC in an auto yet. I'm sure they won't until they can produce enough cars in the current configuration to meet demand.

It's a shame Chevy hasn't seen fit to offer the SS/SC in an auto yet. I'm sure they won't until they can produce enough cars in the current configuration to meet demand.

Yeah, I'm sure the majority of this market wants the manual.
It will be pretty nice when an SS sedan w/ the opt auto is out.

I prefer it when any car has transmission choices. But I guess
it's sometimes not economical for them to build both variations
if one choice is going to clearly be the choice for most buyers.

I also prefer when you get engine options, so you can stick the
biggest engine in the most simplest optioned chassis. But those
days are over, too. It's almost always the case nowadays that
you have to pay for a bunch of other options to get a big engine.

I actually prefer driving cars with a manual tranny. I find them much more fun to drive and I feel more in control. If anything, my second bet would be going with an AutoStick tranny. I know they don't make them for the SS, but I have an 04 Spyder Eclipse GT with an AutoStick and I would assume you can get more power before each shift because you have that control over it. They're fun too when you want the power, but definately don't compare with a stick in my book...

Most Auto Stick's that I've seen or nothing more than a disguise for any other automatic transmission control. Whether you move from 1st to 2nd to Drive via the arm that sticks out of the steering wheel, or a clever +/- lever on the console, it's the same. In fact, several auto sticks will shift when the RPMs hit a certain point even if you don't tell it to!

I highly doubt you get more power from your shift.. The shift point should be right around the max RPM the car will allow under full acceleration with a normal auto. I could be wrong, but I don't believe you will gain much of anything except better control for a quick DOWNSHIFT if it doesn't override you anyway. Normal autos are still retarded and slow to respond when it comes to being in a higher gear and then giving it some gas. It doesn't always downshift when I personally would if it were manual and sometimes it does and I would have left it in 5th. The automatic transmission fails to have 'common sense' to know how and when you need or do not need your acceleration.

In conclusion, are auto sticks any better than your standard handle coming out of the steering wheel? You have quicker access to chaning gears and better manuerablility to get to it, but that's about all in my opinion.

Here is an interesting way to look at it.

I have driven manual since I was 16.......that's 19 years. I am a good driver and I know when to shift....I don't even look at the tac's I just know when to shift by the sound of the engine. It's interesting to note that an experienced driver realizes that the car becomes an extention of your own body. Not only on the inside but on the outside as well. That is to say you know where the bumpers are in relation to other obsticles. That being said, a driver of a manual car is, in my opinion, more aware of his/her surroundings as well as being in total control of the vehicle. I wonder what stats there are on accidents with manual vs. auto in relation to driver experience!!!!!


Amen... I truly have always felt connected to the car i drive and in control by knowing exaclty the distance required and the time required to stop, pass, evade, etc.\
the ability to process all of that and adapt to the road and traffic conditions is key to driving effectively

Amen... I truly have always felt connected to the car i drive and in control by knowing exaclty the distance required and the time required to stop, pass, evade, etc.\
the ability to process all of that and adapt to the road and traffic conditions is key to driving effectively

Absolutely. I agree that knowing all this information is valuable.
Fortunately this is all info you can know in an automatic car, too.

Automatics work in a pre-determined pattern based on the speed
and throttle position (and probably other factors). They do not go
shifting gears randomly. Once you understand your automatic, it
is not hard at all to get the necessary gear shifts when needed.

I will admit, a manual does give you absolute control, but you DO
get control in an automatic. Assuming that there's no driver input
determining gear selection in an automatic is pretty ignorant.

PS- I'm not saying automatics are "better" than manuals. That's an
end user decision. I'm just making sure there are some facts being
spread rather than just blanket assumptions that manuals are king.

im very surprised no one has mentioned that the auto twin turbo supra is stock for stock faster than the stick supra, just thought id throw that in

I am not going to jump into this too deep but to say that automatics are not inherently weaker, or failure prone...99% of all auto trans failures are due to lack of maintenance...meaning filter and fluid changes or flushes...you have to remember the clutches that actually engage and disengae individual gears are immersed in the same fluid that the control valves and solenoids use...this means particualte matter (from clutch wear) is suspended in the fluid of the control circuits....also slipping a dry clutch in a manual trans does not offer the torque multiplication that a torque converter in an auto box does...this is because a torque ACTUALLY multiplies the torque input to it via a series of one way roller clutches and vanes of varying pitches...think of two fans facing each other...if both have the same exact blades when one turns on it will eventually force the other one to turn at the same speed...but if the blades are different it is possible to have the "driven" fan turn faster OR slower than the "drive" fan..this is the priciple of a torque converter...the converter is bolted to the engine and the outside portion of it is the "drive" fan...this part also runs the pump in the transmission...the internal portion of the converter...the turbine...is the "driven" fan and is spline to the transmission input shaft...it is this portion of the torque converter that actually moves the vehicle. torque converters can operate in positive or negative slip....positive slip is when the engine turns faster than input shaft...this occurs under heavy accel, and under torque multiplying situations...not all positive slip is torque multiplying.....negative slip occurs when the engine turns slower than the input shaft....this occurs on closed throttle deceleration, and under certain overdrive conditions...Also while many of you may think the torque converters only job is to slip it is actually more often than not trying to maintain zero slip...engine rpm and input shaft rpm are equal...this is possible because the torque converter has a clutch disc in it...otherwise called a locking torque converter...

The major downfall(if there is one) for the auto transmission is that it is very misunderstood...its just the "slush box" attached to the engine....even in dealerships technicians who dont spend a lot of time with their hands in red oil fall prey to misconceptions and the "black box" effect.....the best part is that very few of the people who claim autos are complicated or innefficient have little or no understanding of how they work, or for that matter even how the manual transmissions/clutches they praise operate....in the end there are very few fundemental differences between the two besides control strategy and engine coupling....even the once mystical planetary gear setup of the auto is now finding its way into into many manual boxes...why?? because its more efficient and easier to package.

That said I drive manuals because I prefer the ability to make my own decisions regarding operation(good or bad) and I enjoy the interaction with the vehicle. :cssNET:

GM has a feature out now that may help solve this difference of opinion. i have seen it on some of the newer cars coming out and it is called manual shift mode. i know that the G6 has it. you can see on the shifter that there is the automatic "D" mode, but you can shift into manual mode for those impromptu races ;) Here is a picture from the G6 website so you can see what i mean.
http://img225.echo.cx/my.php?image=bgimage302am.jpg

That said I drive manuals because I prefer the ability to make my own decisions regarding operation(good or bad) and I enjoy the interaction with the vehicle. :cssNET:


Amen :bow:

Lots of automatic transmission in production vehicles are tuned for a smooth ride and smooth shifts, not performance.

GM has a feature out now that may help solve this difference of opinion. i have seen it on some of the newer cars coming out and it is called manual shift mode. i know that the G6 has it. you can see on the shifter that there is the automatic "D" mode, but you can shift into manual mode for those impromptu races ;) Here is a picture from the G6 website so you can see what i mean.
http://img225.echo.cx/my.php?image=bgimage302am.jpg


I have driven a 6 speed Acura TL with that auto stick feature. It really isn't even close to the same as a manual. Maybe I wasn't using it right but it still shifts for you (in manual mode) and doesn't let you downshift at certain times as well... Like instead of just whinning at the redline like a manual tranny does it shifts for you, so the whole time I was trying to drive and figure out how to shift the transmission is doing it for me still (in the manual mode). So your second guessing the cars computer who is second guesing you and I just ended up putting it in auto mode :)

Does the autostick transmission use the planetary gearset just like a regular auto. I can't imagine with a 6 speed orbital gear set looks like.

I have driven a 6 speed Acura TL with that auto stick feature. It really isn't even close to the same as a manual. Maybe I wasn't using it right but it still shifts for you (in manual mode) and doesn't let you downshift at certain times as well... Like instead of just whinning at the redline like a manual tranny does it shifts for you, so the whole time I was trying to drive and figure out how to shift the transmission is doing it for me still (in the manual mode). So your second guessing the cars computer who is second guesing you and I just ended up putting it in auto mode :)

Does the autostick transmission use the planetary gearset just like a regular auto. I can't imagine with a 6 speed orbital gear set looks like.

Your experience with "auto-stick" its the same as many others. Its not anything like a real manual transmission, you're basically just telling the transmission what to do as opposed to actually doing it. Its the same as manually shifting through the gear pattern on a regular automatic, only difference is the ability to upshift and slighty quicker shift times.

I've also never seen a manu-matic that gave anywhere near full control. Most will shift as they please, so if you run up to redline and let off the throttle, they will upshift. Come to a stop in 2nd, and they will go back to 1st. Try to shift right at redline, and they will upshift prematurely.

You apparently have never driven a high power car with built auto.
Grabbing rubber in 3rd in an automatic is a -seriously cool- feeling.

I've driven and riden in plenty of powerful automatics, but none of them even came close to the feel of an true manual. As for "grabbing rubber in 3rd" in an automatic, it hardly involves any driver interaction at all, all you have to do is push the pedal to the floor. Now pulling off a perfect shift in a manual and getting rubber in 3rd is truly rewarding, its just not the same feeling in an auto :rolleyes:

this is because a torque ACTUALLY multiplies the torque input to it via a series of one way roller clutches and vanes of varying pitches...think of two fans facing each other...if both have the same exact blades when one turns on it will eventually force the other one to turn at the same speed...but if the blades are different it is possible to have the "driven" fan turn faster OR slower than the "drive" fan..this is the priciple of a torque converter...the converter is bolted to the engine and the outside portion of it is the "drive" fan...this part also runs the pump in the transmission...the internal portion of the converter...the turbine...is the "driven" fan and is spline to the transmission input shaft...it is this portion of the torque converter that actually moves the vehicle.

Interesting explanation, you seem to understand the internals of the TC pretty well.

However, your example of the fans points out one of the serious flaws of the Torque converter - there is no direct connection. Everything is driven solely by fluid, which doesn't transfer energy nearly as effectively as metal to metal contact.

Picture the fan example you gave -

Two fans facing each other, one fan is turned on while the other is idle. The air movement from the first fan causes the second fan to turn as well, most likely at a reduced speed. Now if you were to grab the second fan (originally idle) with your hand, you could stop it relatively easily. Its limited in energy by the air movement output of the first fan.

Now attatch the two fans together with a steel coupling. Whatever the first fan does, the 2nd fan does, and vice versa. Now try and stop the second fan with your hand. It has the same torque as the first, because of the direct connection. This setup is much more efficient and wastes little energy. See my point?? ;)

Wes...it is not driven solely by fluid when the torque converter clutch is applied...as I stated, the pcm is constantly trying to keep slip to a minimum by locking the torque converter to allow a direct mechanical transfer of power, as opposed to the fluid shear method of a traditional or unlocked torque converter. :)

Wes...it is not driven solely by fluid when the torque converter clutch is applied...as I stated, the pcm is constantly trying to keep slip to a minimum by locking the torque converter to allow a direct mechanical transfer of power, as opposed to the fluid shear method of a traditional or unlocked torque converter. :)

Yes, but many vehicles don't engage the TC clutch until the car reaches a certain speed in overdrive. I see what you are saying about the PCM. I notice in my car that whenever I am cruising under light throttle, the PCM tries to keep the RPM's as low as possible. Doesn't always work (runs out of power) but at least it tries ;)

As far as I know, my 4-speed Cavalier can lock the TC in both 3rd gear as well as 4th. You can feel when its locked, because the engine speed is consistantly proportional to the vehicle speed. Problem is that it will unlock with any slight change in throttle position, which kind of defeats the purpose. What they should do is program the TC clutch to lock at anything above a slight roll, much as a driver would do with a clutch in a manual. It would be much more efficient, but wouldn't be quite as smooth.

Exactly Wes...the only real reason it doesnt lock in lower gears is because it would be difficult to keep running smooth....they want it to be locked up as much as possible, stay tuned GM is introducing auto transmissions that dont use a torque converter....its a sytem called Integrated Friction Launch....the engine is always linked directly to the trans and the internal clutches of the trans act EXACTLY like the clutch in a manual....

I think if you race the same two cars on a curvy racetrack, the man. will beat the auto. Thats just my guess.

man. = better mpg.
man. = less weight (fig).
man. = no need for trany filter change.
man. = better.

hehe

[QUOTE=Maven]I am not going to jump into this too deep but to say that automatics are not inherently weaker, or failure prone...99% of all auto trans failures are due to lack of maintenance...meaning filter and fluid changes or flushes...you have to remember the clutches that actually engage and disengae individual gears are immersed in the same fluid that the control valves and solenoids use...this means particualte matter (from clutch wear) is suspended in the fluid of the control circuits....

Actually, your kinda wrong here. The clutch doesnt disengage or engage the individual gears here, the syncronizer's do that. The clutch itself only really engages or disenages the input shaft.

Actually, your kinda wrong here. The clutch doesnt disengage or engage the individual gears here, the syncronizer's do that. The clutch itself only really engages or disenages the input shaft.

Umm..he was talking about the internals of an automatic, not a manual ;)


stay tuned GM is introducing auto transmissions that dont use a torque converter....its a sytem called Integrated Friction Launch....the engine is always linked directly to the trans and the internal clutches of the trans act EXACTLY like the clutch in a manual....

Sounds good to me, any type of direct-drive system has got to be better than a torque converter :)

Can't wait to start seeing these new transmissions in future vehicles, it will be a major improvement over current autos. Better performance and better efficiency at the same time, sounds good to me :cool:

Actually Dnb, your wrong...first as Wes pointed out i was referring to the automatic, and in a manual the synchronisers dont engage or disengage individual gears, they do what there name implies, they synchronise the speeds of the two gears being shifted between so double clutching isnt need, the shift fork in conjuction with the movable gear hubs and dog rings(if equipped) actually engage gears.... :cssNET:

lol you should read someones sig before starting an arguement..... maven obviously knows his stuff.... i had a pretty good idea on how it works but thanks for clearing up a few thigns maven

Very true AUTO's will start to slip and fall apart after about 100k

Yeah, usually quite a while after 100K miles. My 1995 LT1 Caprice (big heavy car with a bunch of torque 330ft*lbs, about the worst abuse a tranny can take) is quietly rusting outside my window with 203K miles on the original transmission. It is getting along in years, shifts harder than it did 90K miles ago, so I figure the clutches are getting pretty worn, but it still gets me around just fine as a daily driver (70+ miles a day).

High torque cars usually perform better behind automatics and high reving, low torque cars generally do better behind manual transmissions. If you go back 40 years and look at the times of the big inch motor cars, you will see that statement holds true.

With the advent of roller cams (extending the powerband range from 2000 RPM to double that) the performing edge has moved more towards the manual transmision regardless of the low end torque of the vehicle. Having said that, an automatic will generally show its tail lights to a manual version of the same car up to the 1/8th mile. (again, in the higher torque motors)

A turbo car should be quicker with an automatic as it can spool against the torque converter and get into the power quicker. The SRT-4 and Cobalt SS (among others) uses a manual transmission because there is not a front wheel drive automatic that can take the torque of the engines.

I didn't read the whole thread but I will throw this in just in case it didn't make it.

If you are running a turbo, a well tuned auto will be a better match than a stick as the "dead time" between gears is much shorter and allows less lag. Not to mention no blown shifts. I will take a tiptronic or paddle shifted auto over a regular manual anyday. There will always be room for real manual lovers but the day of manuals being the "perfomance choice" are about numbered. The thing they still reign supreme in though is simplicity and overall durability (when not driven by some ham-fisted 2F2F punk wannabe.).

My .02
S.O.

I prefer autos in my cars and sticks in trucks.

Auto is mroe consistant and better for drag racing, but manual is the only option for driving with turns.

Amen a MILLION times. Auto is also better in an autocross where speeds stay relatively low.

OK as far as the DRAG RACING high HP motors such as NHRA funny cars etc. They are neither a AUTO or a MANUAL. Has any of you watched a drag racer SHIFT? There are levers that they pull to switch the gears either 2 or 3 levers. That shifts the car.

I prefer a manual in a car but in a truck i would rather have an AUTO. (if anyone has shifted a truck with a manual you will understand) and i mean a pickup truck. And as far as ENGINE braking goes i have explained this before but ill do a refresher. I drive a 80000 pound cement truck now and have driven many big trucks as well. all the companys i have worked for there mechanics told us to down shift while braking to slow the truck down. it saves the clutch and helps with wear and tear. Hrrmmm if it was harder on the trans why would they have you do it? If done proper or 80% of proper it wont hurt a dayum thing. I am teaching my wife to drive a stick, she is learning how to use the clutch to up shift downshift and brake.

i have an 2.4 ss auto, i only got it because of where i live and i do alot of driving.. its not easy sitting in traffic in the morning with a manual.. that said i think autos are begining to get better and over time probably replacing alot of manual trannies. TAke for example the VW DSG auto tranny which if im not mistaken is slightly faster than the manual tranny used in the new gti.

I had drivin auto for the last 6 years since i got my license, and in 3 different cars. 3 weeks ago i got my SS/SC and im not gonna lie, i miss my auto :( it was so easy to drive and i could do so many things at once without having to worry about going into nuetral to stop, or how EVERY time you need to get the car going theres still a possibility you could stall(even with experienced drivers they say sometimes still happens to them). its a lot more to worry about. plus i love my subs and loud music hench - i cant hear the engine. so the only time i know when to shift is by looking at my speedometer and RPM gauge which is also another hassle, where on my auto's shit i had no use for the RPM gauge i only ever had to check speed but not to slow down. Now that i have a manual car, i still stall once in a while. maybe 2-5 times a day. still learning how to drive it properly, i can at least get from point a-b. i had the cobalt SS auto which i then traded for the SS/SC. One very nice thing about manual is the mileage. i can drive a LOT more on one tank of gas then that auto ever could. its strange how the dealer said i would be getting less mileage but shit im getting almost twice the mileage i was, mostly because in an auto when you drive, it goes through every gear to the top RPM of it. in my manual, i can stay at 2kRPM my entire trip if i want using the gears. less RPM = less engine speed = less gas usage. so that is one plus. another good thing of my manual if just being in the SS/SC and putting your hand on that stick makes me feel like a racer lol. just is cool. i remember the few months i was driving my auto i always had my hand on the stick just to feel like it was a manual because i wanted the SS/SC so badly. in most respects i love the manual, i will miss my auto, but the only thing i still dont like about manual is all the work. im in a parking lot.. have to brake, hit clutch, toss in nuetral, brake again, wait, put in clutch, put gear in first, release clutch only to press it in again to get into second! On the auto... brake, wait, press accelerator. so yeah, lots of work on manual compared to auto. however the SS/SC only comes in manual, and i love the car so much im doing everything i can to make sure i become a manual driving pro. so myself, in the past, being PRO-100% auto! "manual sucks" guy, have turned over to the dark side and its not so bad. by the end of this summer im sure i'll be able to drive it just fine so im ready for winter. its just all a matter of pretty much, what transmission you were raised to drive with, and how stubborn you are to change ;p

My auto is good to 325hp according to GM, thats all I care about :twothumbs

I've never found autos to be an more or less reliable than a good manual. the trick is to not beat on your cars. GM autos are generally made to be smooth shifting quiet everyday transmissions and they work well at it. show me any other full size front drive automatic with 300hp.

watch some moron driving his 5 speed 88 CRX and not having any idea about matching the gears when he shifts... a clutch is to make up for imperfect shifting and for dead stop accleration. an auto matic is constantly doing something during it's movement. the trick with ANY car is to maintain it properly, what car makers don't tell you is that the 100,000 mile service schedule is stretching it. they do that so that the car has a lower TCO up to 100k. i'd say that any transmission needs a good fluid flush and fill every 40-50k or so, more if you drive it hard. the same is true of diff oil, if your car has a seperate supply for that.

Im not going to say one is beter then the other but they each have there place.
Auts are good for a few things. Geting mom to and from work is one of them.
As for raceing if your going to turn the wheel there is no question about it, an auto is not what you want. But if drag racing is your thing then the auto is more cosistent but at a price.
It dosnt last as long, its alot more money, and it will slow you down unless you have alot of power and are runing some good times. Now this is on a track.
On the street you can expect ot get less fuel mileg. spend moer to buy the thing, and have to spend alot more to have it serviced the right way.
Manuals also have there place in every day driveing. They get beter fuel mileg, they tend to last longer, the cost less to buy, there cheaper to mainatne, and if you know what your doing there more fun to drive.
As for the track they are just as fast or faster then an auto if your not making big power down the drag strip and there always going to be faster in the twistys.

But this is just my 2 cents. Think what you want.

One last thing to think about is that most auto transmisions need to be flushed, have there filter changed and refilled at about 50K. Now less then 30% of the people that own an auto actualy do this. And it is one if the resons that the auto trans has a reputation for not lasting long.
My mom and my dad got a new tauho in 95. My mom did the trans services and the truck strill drives just fine with 134K on the clock. My dad on the other hand did not. At 76K his trans went. He got it fixed and at 154K it Went agen. He traided it for a new one.
Both trucks where drive about the same and they both pulled a bout all the time.
Total my mom spent so far on her trans : about 450. (It needed a senser a year ago)
Total my dad spent befor traid in: About 3700 with tax.
Total I spent on my cavailer in 108K with a 5 speed. 0!!!!!! And not geting the auto saved me 850 when i got the car.

Later

I'm gonna say is that I prefer to be in control of my shifting. Automatics are more expensive to rebuild and I think are more prone to needing one than a manual. Manuals may need a clutch, release bearing or a slave cylinder. I still think service and maintenance go to the manual. Also, if manuals aren't any good then why do some cars only come in manual such as the Cobalt SS 2.0 and the Corvette Z06. Base Corvettes and GTO's are upcharged when ordered with a manual.

I'm gonna say is that I prefer to be in control of my shifting. Automatics are more expensive to rebuild and I think are more prone to needing one than a manual. Manuals may need a clutch, release bearing or a slave cylinder. I still think service and maintenance go to the manual. Also, if manuals aren't any good then why do some cars only come in manual such as the Cobalt SS 2.0 and the Corvette Z06. Base Corvettes and GTO's are upcharged when ordered with a manual.

covettes are the same price either way.

the only good thing about an automatic is that its easier to turn around toward the backseat and beat your kids in than in a manual. now i have to wait til i get home to hand out kidney punches to my monkeys. other than that manual is king. imo.

My auto is good to 325hp according to GM, thats all I care about :twothumbs

I dont know where you got that info, but it is unfortunately wrong.

Firstly GM doesnt rate their trans' in HP. they use Torque(since hp is merely a function of torque and rpm, the torque rating is more accurate anyway)

Secondly, the 4T45e is only rated for 205ft lbs.

I may be late but I find autos:

1) Boring
2) Power Robbing
3) Taking Away The Ability To Control The Car

Unless I had a dedicated drag car there is no reason I would ever want an automatic. When it comes to a street car, manual tranny > auto in every way.

Whats so good about consistency if its consistently slow?

both sides have their pluses and minuses

that being said, im on my 3rd car and they have all been manual
manual for life!

Yes, but many vehicles don't engage the TC clutch until the car reaches a certain speed in overdrive. I see what you are saying about the PCM. I notice in my car that whenever I am cruising under light throttle, the PCM tries to keep the RPM's as low as possible. Doesn't always work (runs out of power) but at least it tries ;)

As far as I know, my 4-speed Cavalier can lock the TC in both 3rd gear as well as 4th. You can feel when its locked, because the engine speed is consistantly proportional to the vehicle speed. Problem is that it will unlock with any slight change in throttle position, which kind of defeats the purpose. What they should do is program the TC clutch to lock at anything above a slight roll, much as a driver would do with a clutch in a manual. It would be much more efficient, but wouldn't be quite as smooth.

GM trannys are known for being butter smooth, this is why. i've seen lots of autos that run well for several hundred thousand miles. the two things that kill an automatic are dirt and heat, just like an engine. have it flushed every so often and don't over load the car and it should be fine for as long as you own your car. assuming that you don't beat on it.

Whats so good about consistency if its consistently slow?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

it's cheaper to replace brake pads then a clutch and auto is only like a .02 sec slower with perfect shifts

I love my stick.

My last 3 vehicles were auto, and I've always want to drive a manual, and my cobalt is that.

I'm gonna say anything about which is faster or better, since I really don't know a lot of info between the 2; similarities or differences. My choice is a manual, I feel that I have more control over the car, than in an auto!

I think it all depends. I think mostly every stock car, the manual will be a hair faster. However, like someone said, you could buy torque converters and shift kits and all that other good stuff to make your auto shift a lot faster. You get consistant times with an auto as well.

Another thing is that I belive auto is good for turbo'ed cars. Doesn't an auto turbocharged car hold boost through the gears? Because when you have a manual, you have to let off the gas and press the clutch in. Once you press on the gas again you have to build up boost again....unless you're powershifting. I don't know, it probably doesn't make a difference but I could've sworn I have heard that somewhere.

Autos have different Gear Ratios

for example, the Manual Base Model's first gear ratio is in the 3:1 ballpark whereas the auto's is more like 2:1. That means that the manual will have ~30-50% more torque off the line

Autos have different Gear Ratios

for example, the Manual Base Model's first gear ratio is in the 3:1 ballpark whereas the auto's is more like 2:1. That means that the manual will have ~30-50% more torque off the line


The Getrag 5's first ratio is 3.58:1 and the 4T40-e first ratio is 2.96:1

So first off thats only an 18% difference in gear ratio differnce, and you cant forget that in the automatics favor it has the torque multiplification effect of the torque converter, coupled with the fact that the auto allows the engine to run closer to its torque peak from initial start and you see the advantage is small if non existant for the manual box. The manual box is however as discussed before, lighter, lower drag, and less complex

The Getrag 5's first ratio is 3.58:1 and the 4T40-e first ratio is 2.96:1

So first off thats only an 18% difference in gear ratio differnce, and you cant forget that in the automatics favor it has the torque multiplification effect of the torque converter, coupled with the fact that the auto allows the engine to run closer to its torque peak from initial start and you see the advantage is small if non existant for the manual box. The manual box is however as discussed before, lighter, lower drag, and less complex

You're the tech, so I'm going to trust you :lol:
I guess I did a good thing when i got the Auto :twothumbs

Manual For Life!

You should drive your car, not let your car drive you. Garbage Automajic! :guns:

and the 4T40-e first ratio is 2.96:1


Wait... we have the 4T45-e tranny, is there any difference in ratios?

Wait... we have the 4T45-e tranny, is there any difference in ratios?

Nope...the only differences worth noting are that the 4t45e uses DEXRON VI fluid and the 40 used III. There are no noteworthy ratio, torque handling, or size /weight differences between the two

Have you guys priced a clutch replacement vs brake pad replacement?
Why would anyone want to use a clutch to replace their cheap brakes?
And if 1-2 seconds hurts your passing ability, you probably should take
driver's education again and learn how to drive responsibly.

An automatic with a good shift kit rules all. End of story. :)

Only someone who can't drive stick would make such a lame comment.
A Manual is just better for control.

Only someone who can't drive stick would make such a lame comment.
A Manual is just better for control.



it's like re-animator... it's back from the DEAD

Here is an interesting way to look at it.

I have driven manual since I was 16.......that's 19 years. I am a good driver and I know when to shift....I don't even look at the tac's I just know when to shift by the sound of the engine. It's interesting to note that an experienced driver realizes that the car becomes an extention of your own body. Not only on the inside but on the outside as well. That is to say you know where the bumpers are in relation to other obsticles. That being said, a driver of a manual car is, in my opinion, more aware of his/her surroundings as well as being in total control of the vehicle. I wonder what stats there are on accidents with manual vs. auto in relation to driver experience!!!!!

I just read this thread, and this by far puts my mind to work. I would like to conduct an experiment with this. I'd take data from populated areas such as New York, California, parts of Texas, and maybe a few other states. That really makes an interesting point.

Went on a road trip for work and the customer wanted to let me drive his mustang.When I saw that it was an auto I told him no thanx.He asked why.I said "It's an automatic,I dont know how to drive one.But if youre in an offerin mood, I'd like to take your plane for a hop." His turn to say no thanx.

A little info about our auto trannys.

4T45e can take approx 190 HP and 230 ft pounds of torque to the wheels before it starts to need upgrading. Considering this compared to a lot of other auto trannys out there it's a very high breakage point for the car it's being used in.

Also not to mention the V6 3.5L 210 HP Malibus use this tranny also. :)

I dont particularly care, but what everyone is calling AutomaticStick I believe is also known as Sports Tronic....

Manual manages the car's MPG a lot better than auto. If you wanna do 30 and not have the car rev at 3k rpm, throw the thing in 5th, and the rpms drop to 1.5k. Now power, but better for crusing.

I just bought a brand new 06 cobalt with a auto trans, I'm not to worried as this is my daily driver (my "toy" car is my 93 Talon which is a 5spd.) and this thing has go! I have the 2.2 on the LT model with a couple extras that I'm too lazy to list but this thing can still pull it's weight, and I'm quite happy with the purchase.

I've driven 5spd since I got my license, and going to an auto has believe it or not made my ride a little more enjoyable. I don't know how to explain it but it is.

for drag racing yes autos are better, road racing no. everyday driving yes tho, esp if you live in a city where traffic is a nightmare. i do believe tho that out of the box most standards are better. you have to tear the auto apart to replace to torque converter and that may be a little further than most people are willing to go. but it should be said that dont be a rookie and just keep going with higher and higher torque converters. have one custom built to your car. the best ones are from companies that take everything about your car and make a converter for it. everything matters from cam, rear end, transmission type (3,4,5,6,7 speed), vehicle weight, intended use, tire size, wheel size. the converter is the last thing im going to get for my mercury because i need to know all those things before i can have it made. now its just got an off the shelf 2300rpm one. also it seems from my opinion that manuals are good till about low 10's, you can only row thru the gears so quickly in that short amount of time. unless its one of those high end 2 speed clutchless standards, but i lump those in with autoboxes.

I will openly admit that I think autos are better than manual in almost ALL respects except for one:

FUN.

:cssNET:

i know this thread is kinda old but i just wanted to say that in drag racing auto is not better than manuals. i mean, unless you have like a 5 second 1/8 mile or something. sure the auto might be more consistant, not FASTER.. my automatic focus ran consistent 10.8s, my cobalt with less mods runs all sorts of times. 10.7..10.6..10.5..10.4. no matter what i did in my focus i couldnt hit that 10.4 unless i did some more mods. you can easily break your own records in a manual just by shifting just a little better each time.

Manuals are fun to drive no doubt BUT for consistant performance an automatic is the only way to go.

And for those who think that autos only come in 4 spds you are mistaken. GM now has a 5 and 6 spd auto due out in the next few years. Autos are slowly taking over.

But manuals are still more fun to drive! :D

OK I am just going to add my 2 cents.... then I'm dun.....
"Anybody can drive an automtic......... consistantly.... where is the skill??? "

For the people that used pro stock as a example that auto's are used for drag racing

NHRA Pro Stocks utilize a Liberty or G-Force five-speed clutchless manual
transmission.

The thing with NHRA drag racing and Nascar and most other racing sports they cut the gears extremely straight on the transmissions so to use the clutch pedal is reduced. Nascar the main purpose of the clutch is starting, keeping from stalling, and the 2 road course races. NHRA if you watch they simply throw into gear with ratcheting shifters, no use of the clutch.

Its more or less "hybrid" But now you have auto trannies you can shift manualy. So w/e

Autos take more power to run, weagh more, have more parts to brake, cost more to mod, are harder to work on, and use more fuel to operate. Oh and there alot less fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Autos and manuals are going out like carbs did guys.

There going to be using computer controled manuals with a form of a toruqe converter on them.
They will be no fun but will have all the benifits of both a manual and an auto.

If you look at this thread closely 80% or more of the guys in faver of the auto cant drive a manual any way.

Autos are for Lazzy people.
They pay $800-$1,500 more for the car when they buy it.
Spend $700-$1800 more in fuel when they own it. Thats for about 120K
Spend about $800 more on mantanence. (If they do it at all!)
And spend $800-$1,700 more to have it replaced when they dont do the mantanence and it dies in less then 100K.

Thats and averag of $3,100-$5,800 more depending on the car and the driver then they would with a manual.

DO NOT tell me your not a lazzy ass if your willing to spend that much money just so you dont have to shift your own gears!!!!!

Autos have alowed people that otherwise would not be able to drive to drive cars. Most of these people are the vary same ones that your pissed with in trafic becouse they CANT DRIVE!!!

Later Im out!

Auto - no skill required, good transprotation.

Manual - Skill required (or many clutches), good for fun

I've got an auto in my 06 SS 2.4. It's a much nicer auto than any other 4 cylinder that's I've driven before. It's almost always in the exact perfect RPM range for any sort of accelleration. I do wish I would've bought a manual though just because I love shifting...