Swapping ECU's Can the dealer tell??
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Joined: 03-10-10
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From: Roanoke, Va.
ive extensively emailed vince and several tuners for trifecta on this.. Mike sent me this in one of our posts:
I'll give you an example of how the tune is set up so hopefully it can help you visualize. The tune on the car now has an X amount of digits... for example let's say it's 12345678. When Vince goes to write your Trifecta tune, he writes it so the new calibration (tune) matches those exact numbers. So when your dealer plugs in the Tech2, he/she will see that the calibration code matches what the stock tune should be, therefore declaring you stock.
dunno if it helps out or not.. but i can tell you that they've never found it on my friends ss/tc with the stealth tune, but hes never "popped" his engine, so i dunno how extensive they would check on his
I'll give you an example of how the tune is set up so hopefully it can help you visualize. The tune on the car now has an X amount of digits... for example let's say it's 12345678. When Vince goes to write your Trifecta tune, he writes it so the new calibration (tune) matches those exact numbers. So when your dealer plugs in the Tech2, he/she will see that the calibration code matches what the stock tune should be, therefore declaring you stock.
dunno if it helps out or not.. but i can tell you that they've never found it on my friends ss/tc with the stealth tune, but hes never "popped" his engine, so i dunno how extensive they would check on his
im gonna be harsh because i think this is an important thing that is hard to find information on and is the first thing you should know when you get involved with an LNF. If some1 made it this blunt when i started out it would have helped
If your gonna tune this car your a MORON if you dont find a spare ECU. Find one with the option of getting your Vin in it. Performance Autowerks sells them now I believe. Google them. WELL WORTH THE MONEY Dealer CANNOT TELL. Had several services done and they always blame it on my aftermarket parts and say they will not diagnose a problem untill everything is returned to stock. Never once had a problem, and had a technician scan my ECU looking for a tune and told me "thank god you didnt do anything to the computer cause they tell us to check for that 1st thign when one of these comes in" I dont trust trifecta hidden tunes, if its on the ECU and my cars in the dealer im nervous. if the stock ECU that was never touched is at the dealer i can sleep at night. No mileage is stored on it and the date of the loaded flash is well b4 you owned the car. No worries. Best possible way to do it if you can. Oh and ALWAYS tune the NEW ecu. leave the old one. keep it in the car in the trunk. you break down, put stock ECU in, put the tuned one in a bag or whatever, call a tow truck. cars at the dealer with stock ECU in. ur safe.
If your gonna tune this car your a MORON if you dont find a spare ECU. Find one with the option of getting your Vin in it. Performance Autowerks sells them now I believe. Google them. WELL WORTH THE MONEY Dealer CANNOT TELL. Had several services done and they always blame it on my aftermarket parts and say they will not diagnose a problem untill everything is returned to stock. Never once had a problem, and had a technician scan my ECU looking for a tune and told me "thank god you didnt do anything to the computer cause they tell us to check for that 1st thign when one of these comes in" I dont trust trifecta hidden tunes, if its on the ECU and my cars in the dealer im nervous. if the stock ECU that was never touched is at the dealer i can sleep at night. No mileage is stored on it and the date of the loaded flash is well b4 you owned the car. No worries. Best possible way to do it if you can. Oh and ALWAYS tune the NEW ecu. leave the old one. keep it in the car in the trunk. you break down, put stock ECU in, put the tuned one in a bag or whatever, call a tow truck. cars at the dealer with stock ECU in. ur safe.
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Joined: 02-09-09
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From: Tejas
ive extensively emailed vince and several tuners for trifecta on this.. Mike sent me this in one of our posts:
I'll give you an example of how the tune is set up so hopefully it can help you visualize. The tune on the car now has an X amount of digits... for example let's say it's 12345678. When Vince goes to write your Trifecta tune, he writes it so the new calibration (tune) matches those exact numbers. So when your dealer plugs in the Tech2, he/she will see that the calibration code matches what the stock tune should be, therefore declaring you stock.
dunno if it helps out or not.. but i can tell you that they've never found it on my friends ss/tc with the stealth tune, but hes never "popped" his engine, so i dunno how extensive they would check on his
I'll give you an example of how the tune is set up so hopefully it can help you visualize. The tune on the car now has an X amount of digits... for example let's say it's 12345678. When Vince goes to write your Trifecta tune, he writes it so the new calibration (tune) matches those exact numbers. So when your dealer plugs in the Tech2, he/she will see that the calibration code matches what the stock tune should be, therefore declaring you stock.
dunno if it helps out or not.. but i can tell you that they've never found it on my friends ss/tc with the stealth tune, but hes never "popped" his engine, so i dunno how extensive they would check on his
Yeah, based on what is programed in the ECU, it uses a calculation to produce a number. If anything on the ECU is changed, the chance of that number being the same is almost impossible. Anyway, they use that number as a way to see if anything's been changed on the ECU. Normally this would make good sense and is quick to do. What Vince has basically done is set this normally calculated number to a number that always reads the same as the stock number, regardless of what's on the ECU, therefore appearing to be stock at the first glance.
In my opinon, unless you think that your ECU could kick the can for some reason in the future, there's no reason to have more than one. The ECU keeps no total mileage figure, is completely reset when reflashed via Trifecta or when you flash the whole calibration via HPT (appears the same as if you simply disconnected the battery to work on your car), and has no reflash counter. Some could make the point of "What if I brick it while reflashing it?". The Trifecta software will still be able to reflash your ECU even if it's interrupted mid-flash or if it somehow had an incomplete flash. Knowing these things, I see no reason to need a second one unless you just want to have a second one around for some personal reason.
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Joined: 06-22-09
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From: Kathmandu
The tune cannot be seen. I'm an example for proof. Mine has been in for a popped motor, due to what ended up being a "engine defect". If they dug deeper, sent it off, and tried to read the ECU, they would simply get a read error, which could be a sign that the ECU was bad anyway.
Yeah, based on what is programed in the ECU, it uses a calculation to produce a number. If anything on the ECU is changed, the chance of that number being the same is almost impossible. Anyway, they use that number as a way to see if anything's been changed on the ECU. Normally this would make good sense and is quick to do. What Vince has basically done is set this normally calculated number to a number that always reads the same as the stock number, regardless of what's on the ECU, therefore appearing to be stock at the first glance.
In my opinon, unless you think that your ECU could kick the can for some reason in the future, there's no reason to have more than one. The ECU keeps no total mileage figure, is completely reset when reflashed via Trifecta or when you flash the whole calibration via HPT (appears the same as if you simply disconnected the battery to work on your car), and has no reflash counter. Some could make the point of "What if I brick it while reflashing it?". The Trifecta software will still be able to reflash your ECU even if it's interrupted mid-flash or if it somehow had an incomplete flash. Knowing these things, I see no reason to need a second one unless you just want to have a second one around for some personal reason.
Yeah, based on what is programed in the ECU, it uses a calculation to produce a number. If anything on the ECU is changed, the chance of that number being the same is almost impossible. Anyway, they use that number as a way to see if anything's been changed on the ECU. Normally this would make good sense and is quick to do. What Vince has basically done is set this normally calculated number to a number that always reads the same as the stock number, regardless of what's on the ECU, therefore appearing to be stock at the first glance.
In my opinon, unless you think that your ECU could kick the can for some reason in the future, there's no reason to have more than one. The ECU keeps no total mileage figure, is completely reset when reflashed via Trifecta or when you flash the whole calibration via HPT (appears the same as if you simply disconnected the battery to work on your car), and has no reflash counter. Some could make the point of "What if I brick it while reflashing it?". The Trifecta software will still be able to reflash your ECU even if it's interrupted mid-flash or if it somehow had an incomplete flash. Knowing these things, I see no reason to need a second one unless you just want to have a second one around for some personal reason.
The tune cannot be seen. I'm an example for proof. Mine has been in for a popped motor, due to what ended up being a "engine defect". If they dug deeper, sent it off, and tried to read the ECU, they would simply get a read error, which could be a sign that the ECU was bad anyway.
Yeah, based on what is programed in the ECU, it uses a calculation to produce a number. If anything on the ECU is changed, the chance of that number being the same is almost impossible. Anyway, they use that number as a way to see if anything's been changed on the ECU. Normally this would make good sense and is quick to do. What Vince has basically done is set this normally calculated number to a number that always reads the same as the stock number, regardless of what's on the ECU, therefore appearing to be stock at the first glance.
In my opinon, unless you think that your ECU could kick the can for some reason in the future, there's no reason to have more than one. The ECU keeps no total mileage figure, is completely reset when reflashed via Trifecta or when you flash the whole calibration via HPT (appears the same as if you simply disconnected the battery to work on your car), and has no reflash counter. Some could make the point of "What if I brick it while reflashing it?". The Trifecta software will still be able to reflash your ECU even if it's interrupted mid-flash or if it somehow had an incomplete flash. Knowing these things, I see no reason to need a second one unless you just want to have a second one around for some personal reason.
Yeah, based on what is programed in the ECU, it uses a calculation to produce a number. If anything on the ECU is changed, the chance of that number being the same is almost impossible. Anyway, they use that number as a way to see if anything's been changed on the ECU. Normally this would make good sense and is quick to do. What Vince has basically done is set this normally calculated number to a number that always reads the same as the stock number, regardless of what's on the ECU, therefore appearing to be stock at the first glance.
In my opinon, unless you think that your ECU could kick the can for some reason in the future, there's no reason to have more than one. The ECU keeps no total mileage figure, is completely reset when reflashed via Trifecta or when you flash the whole calibration via HPT (appears the same as if you simply disconnected the battery to work on your car), and has no reflash counter. Some could make the point of "What if I brick it while reflashing it?". The Trifecta software will still be able to reflash your ECU even if it's interrupted mid-flash or if it somehow had an incomplete flash. Knowing these things, I see no reason to need a second one unless you just want to have a second one around for some personal reason.
What if you want a custom HP tune from members on here who have made more power out of there tunes then Vince at trifecta? He can do cool **** with the car and the programming of buttons, but I believe the best actual tunes fall in the hands of the members on this forum.
And another thing that made me scratch my head that many may overlook reading that is that it is portrayied as if no tech will ever discover trifectas hidden tune EVER because its that ******* good. And then you say "therefore appearing to be stock at the first glance." Why only the 1st glance? This leads me to believe one of these statements is fucked up. Either the fact that its not hidden so well that it cannot be seen by a tech, or its hidden good enough that if you glance at the ECU it appears stock but with any further intrest in it, it can be found out that you fucked with it.
Once again im back to my 1st recommendation, Buy a 2nd ECU. Worth the money You dont need a switchable tune, 2 ECU's that take literally 5 seconds to change standing in front of the car. You want to go back to stock for some reason, pop stock ECU in, you want that extra 100ftlb's of TQ pur in your other ECU. Takes 5 seconds, and this is by far the safest way of them all
And this is not a stab at vince or anything at all, just the other side of the argument.
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Joined: 02-09-09
Posts: 4,374
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From: Tejas
What if you want a custom HP tune from members on here who have made more power out of there tunes then Vince at trifecta? He can do cool **** with the car and the programming of buttons, but I believe the best actual tunes fall in the hands of the members on this forum.
And another thing that made me scratch my head that many may overlook reading that is that it is portrayied as if no tech will ever discover trifectas hidden tune EVER because its that ******* good. And then you say "therefore appearing to be stock at the first glance." Why only the 1st glance? This leads me to believe one of these statements is fucked up. Either the fact that its not hidden so well that it cannot be seen by a tech, or its hidden good enough that if you glance at the ECU it appears stock but with any further intrest in it, it can be found out that you fucked with it.
Once again im back to my 1st recommendation, Buy a 2nd ECU. Worth the money You dont need a switchable tune, 2 ECU's that take literally 5 seconds to change standing in front of the car. You want to go back to stock for some reason, pop stock ECU in, you want that extra 100ftlb's of TQ pur in your other ECU. Takes 5 seconds, and this is by far the safest way of them all
And this is not a stab at vince or anything at all, just the other side of the argument.
And another thing that made me scratch my head that many may overlook reading that is that it is portrayied as if no tech will ever discover trifectas hidden tune EVER because its that ******* good. And then you say "therefore appearing to be stock at the first glance." Why only the 1st glance? This leads me to believe one of these statements is fucked up. Either the fact that its not hidden so well that it cannot be seen by a tech, or its hidden good enough that if you glance at the ECU it appears stock but with any further intrest in it, it can be found out that you fucked with it.
Once again im back to my 1st recommendation, Buy a 2nd ECU. Worth the money You dont need a switchable tune, 2 ECU's that take literally 5 seconds to change standing in front of the car. You want to go back to stock for some reason, pop stock ECU in, you want that extra 100ftlb's of TQ pur in your other ECU. Takes 5 seconds, and this is by far the safest way of them all
And this is not a stab at vince or anything at all, just the other side of the argument.
I said at the first glance because the checksum will match up when checked by a Tech. This is usually as far as they will ever go, because there wouldn't normally be any reason to think twice about it. Then I went into the part about if they decided to send it off for some reason. At that point they will not be able to read the calibration details due to them getting an error. To my knowledge, no Trifecta "hidden" tune has been discovered via GM's Standard Operating Procedure.
The only thing that would worry me is if they do check the ECM and get a read error ...... GM will request the part back from the dealer and they most likely will send it to Bosch to try and figure out where the problem lies. Then it gets interesting .
Last edited by rukkee; May 30, 2010 at 09:48 PM.
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Joined: 02-09-09
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From: Tejas
If it comes up with an error then it usually means it was bad because it got corrupted. If that's the case, then there's no reason for them to trust anything that they can read off of there to begin with.
I see what you mean though. If it worries you, then sure... get another ECU. Just putting the facts out there for people so they can decide for themselves or know what the options are if they can't afford or aren't interested in buying another. Like I was saying before, I just didn't see a reason to do it unless you're just worried about something (such as that).
Before the hidden tunes and people knowing what the ECU shows and doesn't show, having another ECU did have its place.
I see what you mean though. If it worries you, then sure... get another ECU. Just putting the facts out there for people so they can decide for themselves or know what the options are if they can't afford or aren't interested in buying another. Like I was saying before, I just didn't see a reason to do it unless you're just worried about something (such as that).
Before the hidden tunes and people knowing what the ECU shows and doesn't show, having another ECU did have its place.
If you prefer HPT, then simply do a write entire with the stock tune and you're done. Trifecta had it's advantages, but I understand people like HPT too for its advantages. I'm a fan of both. Just explaining the solutions of each in relation to the subject matter. If you like HPT, that's fine. Just saying to make sure to do a write entire for you to be covered.
I said at the first glance because the checksum will match up when checked by a Tech. This is usually as far as they will ever go, because there wouldn't normally be any reason to think twice about it. Then I went into the part about if they decided to send it off for some reason. At that point they will not be able to read the calibration details due to them getting an error. To my knowledge, no Trifecta "hidden" tune has been discovered via GM's Standard Operating Procedure.
I said at the first glance because the checksum will match up when checked by a Tech. This is usually as far as they will ever go, because there wouldn't normally be any reason to think twice about it. Then I went into the part about if they decided to send it off for some reason. At that point they will not be able to read the calibration details due to them getting an error. To my knowledge, no Trifecta "hidden" tune has been discovered via GM's Standard Operating Procedure.
I worry about them taking it for a ride and reading anything other then 16lbs of boost :-P
and basically the only time you MAY consider NOT getting a 2nd ecu is if you want to go trifecta, and then its debatable if a dealer will actually every discover it or not
I believe that having a second ECM still does have it's place.
I also know that having a second ECM will cost more...
I think that at the end of the day how much $$ you're willing to sink into this is the key;
Tuning = $$
second ECM = $$
chancing voiding warranty = $$
How much are you willing to gamble with your money?
I know that until my warranty is gone, I am not going to risk it - so I'm going to stop at GMS1 ~ but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in this thread
<subscribed>
I also know that having a second ECM will cost more...
I think that at the end of the day how much $$ you're willing to sink into this is the key;
Tuning = $$
second ECM = $$
chancing voiding warranty = $$
How much are you willing to gamble with your money?
I know that until my warranty is gone, I am not going to risk it - so I'm going to stop at GMS1 ~ but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in this thread
<subscribed>
well i think we pretty much covered the bases, if your happy with your GMS1 then more power to ya. for me, i could buy a 2nd ecu, and get it tuned, and in the end it would still cost less then going to the dealer and getting a GMS1 installed and make MUCH more power and be customized to my car and my mods
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GMS1 until warranty is gone then go nuts and modify the living **** outta the thing, least thats what Im doing trust me when they denied me warranty on my mustang I learned my lesson it was a very expensive lesson!!
That makes perfect sense but............... After 5 years or 100,000 miles is anyone really going to want to throw 5-10 psi of boost at a high milage LNF ? It will be interesting to see how these motor's last.
very interesting thread. looks like ill just get a 2nd ecu sometime. GMS1 is coming first so i have the sensors and all that shyt. plus if i go gms1 and then wait to get a better tune, i have something to look forward to. lol. i can still get a good amount of hp and tq out of a gms1, just depends on the supporting mods and bolt ons.
If your worried about the money and drive the car every day for work etc. keep it stock. If you have the cash and want to play go for it. When I bought my car I bought from a dealer who stands behind the racers who bought their cars from him. If you hurt something they will take care of it under warranty.
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Joined: 11-21-08
Posts: 428
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From: Ontario
I believe that having a second ECM still does have it's place.
I also know that having a second ECM will cost more...
I think that at the end of the day how much $$ you're willing to sink into this is the key;
Tuning = $$
second ECM = $$
chancing voiding warranty = $$
How much are you willing to gamble with your money?
I know that until my warranty is gone, I am not going to risk it - so I'm going to stop at GMS1 ~ but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in this thread
<subscribed>
I also know that having a second ECM will cost more...
I think that at the end of the day how much $$ you're willing to sink into this is the key;
Tuning = $$
second ECM = $$
chancing voiding warranty = $$
How much are you willing to gamble with your money?
I know that until my warranty is gone, I am not going to risk it - so I'm going to stop at GMS1 ~ but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in this thread
<subscribed>
its all BS man, they can blame it on your beating on the car too much. its all a ****** scam. Hate the dealer.
"yea my car is knocking under WOT after the stage kit." "well sir, you shouldnt be going WOT in your performance vehicle, we can not guarantee our parts will last under WOT. We test our parts in the parking lot and experieced no knock under 3k rpms, which we recommend you shift at. Maybe you need to find better gas?"
**** them
"yea my car is knocking under WOT after the stage kit." "well sir, you shouldnt be going WOT in your performance vehicle, we can not guarantee our parts will last under WOT. We test our parts in the parking lot and experieced no knock under 3k rpms, which we recommend you shift at. Maybe you need to find better gas?"
**** them
lol. sounds like my old honda dealership
me: its having a hard time going into 2nd at 8500 rpm
them: why would you be shifting that high when you could shift at 4000?
me: *facepalms*
me: its having a hard time going into 2nd at 8500 rpm
them: why would you be shifting that high when you could shift at 4000?
me: *facepalms*