E85 vs Gas
This is why talking about IAT2s on this forum is fail. Its fun to throw out flashy low numbers but it is important to find out what those numbers mean and what they are actually saying about your setup.
Anyone who watches their IAT2s knows that they are consistently inconsistent.
But good discussion.
The biggest downfall with e85 is the availability of it and or how many miles you can get on a tank of it. If you have to travel it can make things a pain in the ass. If you are not the type of person who stays in there area a lot, or near an e85 place etc and are not a tuner I wouldn't recommend e85. If you have the software you can switch between the e85 and 91/93 very easily.
Another thing people can start thinking about doing though is blends. Run a mix of e85 and 93. Another option is e30, etc. This can help with both idc's and gas mileage and in return will still allow you to run more timing then 93, because it obviously has a higher octane rating.
The whole argument with saying 11.5 vs 7.67 etc is stupid in my opinion. Because then some people will assume that if 7.67 is "ok" on e85 that it will be "ok" on regular 91/93 gas too. I just don't like confusing people and I figured that was the least confusing way to say it because e85 is still fairly new to these forums.
Anyway with all of that said, more testing needs to be done in general with blends and e30 in my opinion. I will have more data available soon, but I have a feeling it's going to be better then we are anticipating. The only problem with blends is that it's never going to be exact. For example you can never fill up the exact same amount of each fuel both times. But if you get it fairly close, it shouldn't be that bad. Fill up half a tank with e85, and then fill up half a tank with 91/93. Then when it's out, fill up half a tank with each again and go from there. Again this is stuff I would only recommend to tuners and or people that have the software and think they know what they are doing. This is going to solve some of the issues people are having with cold starts, worse gas mileage and still benefit from running more timing etc.
Anyway to the OP, I highly recommend running e85 and a larger pulley. Start off with whatever you have, stock or a 2.9 etc and run e85 with as much timing as you want/can. If your idc's are fine see if you really feel as if you want/need more power. If you don't problem solved, if you do you're choices are limited. If you're idc's are maxed you can run 98lbers and have a lot of headaches or you can do some other fueling mods to help with them.
I can add this. On 60lbers idc's on e85 maxed out at 6grand. On a 2.7 on e85 idc's were also maxed at 6grand.
In all honesty op, if you are running a 7grand redline on a 2.9 and e85 you should be pretty close, I think you will be able to get away with it. If not, find out where your idc's top out at and set your redline down a little bit until you can get them down with more fueling options etc.
I would honestly rather have a 6500 rpm limit on e85 and the tvs, then have the tvs on 93 octane with a 7grand or 7250 limit.
Another thing people can start thinking about doing though is blends. Run a mix of e85 and 93. Another option is e30, etc. This can help with both idc's and gas mileage and in return will still allow you to run more timing then 93, because it obviously has a higher octane rating.
The whole argument with saying 11.5 vs 7.67 etc is stupid in my opinion. Because then some people will assume that if 7.67 is "ok" on e85 that it will be "ok" on regular 91/93 gas too. I just don't like confusing people and I figured that was the least confusing way to say it because e85 is still fairly new to these forums.
Anyway with all of that said, more testing needs to be done in general with blends and e30 in my opinion. I will have more data available soon, but I have a feeling it's going to be better then we are anticipating. The only problem with blends is that it's never going to be exact. For example you can never fill up the exact same amount of each fuel both times. But if you get it fairly close, it shouldn't be that bad. Fill up half a tank with e85, and then fill up half a tank with 91/93. Then when it's out, fill up half a tank with each again and go from there. Again this is stuff I would only recommend to tuners and or people that have the software and think they know what they are doing. This is going to solve some of the issues people are having with cold starts, worse gas mileage and still benefit from running more timing etc.
Anyway to the OP, I highly recommend running e85 and a larger pulley. Start off with whatever you have, stock or a 2.9 etc and run e85 with as much timing as you want/can. If your idc's are fine see if you really feel as if you want/need more power. If you don't problem solved, if you do you're choices are limited. If you're idc's are maxed you can run 98lbers and have a lot of headaches or you can do some other fueling mods to help with them.
I can add this. On 60lbers idc's on e85 maxed out at 6grand. On a 2.7 on e85 idc's were also maxed at 6grand.
In all honesty op, if you are running a 7grand redline on a 2.9 and e85 you should be pretty close, I think you will be able to get away with it. If not, find out where your idc's top out at and set your redline down a little bit until you can get them down with more fueling options etc.
I would honestly rather have a 6500 rpm limit on e85 and the tvs, then have the tvs on 93 octane with a 7grand or 7250 limit.
did you mean 80's?
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BlackMagic - No I ment 60lbers. YOU CAN RUN 60lbers and E85, you just will have to lower your redline and or your injectors will be maxed at X rpm, for my setup at the time it was 6grand.
Ebristol - E85 or pump gas, iat2's still matter. The iat2's do not change just because the fuel is changing so they can still be discussed, CYL temps and EGT's might but that's a different story. The point is that iat2's are still very very important, you can't just disregard something like this and say "screw it I have e85" lol. If that were the case you wouldn't need an intercooler pump on e85. You will also start to realize that you can only get so much timing out of a car when temps are that high, even with a higher octane fuel. THIS is why iat2's will always be important, that and heat kills. High cyl temps are a no no and high iat2's don't help either fuel.
Ebristol - E85 or pump gas, iat2's still matter. The iat2's do not change just because the fuel is changing so they can still be discussed, CYL temps and EGT's might but that's a different story. The point is that iat2's are still very very important, you can't just disregard something like this and say "screw it I have e85" lol. If that were the case you wouldn't need an intercooler pump on e85. You will also start to realize that you can only get so much timing out of a car when temps are that high, even with a higher octane fuel. THIS is why iat2's will always be important, that and heat kills. High cyl temps are a no no and high iat2's don't help either fuel.
I just got my SS/SC a week ago.
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Not with a proper tune for E85. You can change the IAT2 adder table appropriately for E85 so the tune does not pulley timing for higher IAT2s. I don't have my tune on me but I moved the timing retard one column to the right. So instead of pulling -1* at 148 (or whatever) it pulls -1 at 162 (or whatever).
Still the fact is that the air going into the motor is getting extremely hot. Even with a proper working IC pump, the iat2's on a small pulley can exceed 180 degrees on multiple pulls which is going to cause cyl temps and egt's to be a lot higher. Yes you can modify the tables to not pull as much timing, but why do it the dangerous way when you should just be solving the issue at hand the right way? To much heat will break things plain and simple. Without knowing your cyl temps and or egt's it's not a risk I would be willing to take. I run e85 all the time though, on 60s, on 80s, on the tvs on the the m62, etc. I absolutely love e85, however we still need to cool the intake charge.
Still the fact is that the air going into the motor is getting extremely hot. Even with a proper working IC pump, the iat2's on a small pulley can exceed 180 degrees on multiple pulls which is going to cause cyl temps and egt's to be a lot higher. Yes you can modify the tables to not pull as much timing, but why do it the dangerous way when you should just be solving the issue at hand the right way? To much heat will break things plain and simple. Without knowing your cyl temps and or egt's it's not a risk I would be willing to take. I run e85 all the time though, on 60s, on 80s, on the tvs on the the m62, etc. I absolutely love e85, however we still need to cool the intake charge.
THIS is what people need to do for cooler air temps: single pass, h/e, and run 90% H2O, a splash of coolant to keep the parts lubricated, and a bottle of water wetter. Water has higher cooling properties than coolant. Coolant will retain the heat a lot longer as well.
The issue with methanol/water injection is that it is YET ANOTHER part to fail. When you build a car, the more parts added or changed the more likely it is to fail. Simple fact.
Last edited by WickedSS2005; May 25, 2010 at 10:32 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
BlackMagic - No I ment 60lbers. YOU CAN RUN 60lbers and E85, you just will have to lower your redline and or your injectors will be maxed at X rpm, for my setup at the time it was 6grand.
Ebristol - E85 or pump gas, iat2's still matter. The iat2's do not change just because the fuel is changing so they can still be discussed, CYL temps and EGT's might but that's a different story. The point is that iat2's are still very very important, you can't just disregard something like this and say "screw it I have e85" lol. If that were the case you wouldn't need an intercooler pump on e85. You will also start to realize that you can only get so much timing out of a car when temps are that high, even with a higher octane fuel. THIS is why iat2's will always be important, that and heat kills. High cyl temps are a no no and high iat2's don't help either fuel.
Ebristol - E85 or pump gas, iat2's still matter. The iat2's do not change just because the fuel is changing so they can still be discussed, CYL temps and EGT's might but that's a different story. The point is that iat2's are still very very important, you can't just disregard something like this and say "screw it I have e85" lol. If that were the case you wouldn't need an intercooler pump on e85. You will also start to realize that you can only get so much timing out of a car when temps are that high, even with a higher octane fuel. THIS is why iat2's will always be important, that and heat kills. High cyl temps are a no no and high iat2's don't help either fuel.
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BlackMagic - You shouldn't have to much of an issue on e85 with a 2.9 at 7grand. Everyone's idc's vary from build to build so we can't say exactly at what rpm you may or may not run out of fuel at. I would bet money though that you wouldn't have an issue running a 6500 rpm redline, but you could probably get 7grand out of it. Again this is just something you won't know until you are tuning it.
Wicked - " The issue with methanol/water injection is that it is YET ANOTHER part to fail. When you build a car, the more parts added or changed the more likely it is to fail. Simple fact. "
Tom, I understand that it's another part to fail, however I think we can all agree that when used in conjunction with e85 that it is a great cooling mod. Even if it were to fail, it wouldn't hurt anything because timing is being raised based off of the e85, not the water being sprayed to cool the motor. Water injection won't damage the motor in the least if it fails as long as it doesn't stay on and flood the motor. This is a possibility but yet a very slim one if you take the proper measures.
Wicked - " The issue with methanol/water injection is that it is YET ANOTHER part to fail. When you build a car, the more parts added or changed the more likely it is to fail. Simple fact. "
Tom, I understand that it's another part to fail, however I think we can all agree that when used in conjunction with e85 that it is a great cooling mod. Even if it were to fail, it wouldn't hurt anything because timing is being raised based off of the e85, not the water being sprayed to cool the motor. Water injection won't damage the motor in the least if it fails as long as it doesn't stay on and flood the motor. This is a possibility but yet a very slim one if you take the proper measures.
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I hear ya Tom, I don't have the TVS on my car currently but when running it on the 2.7 I had NO issues with heat soaking in the least. Now on the m62 with a 2.6 that I am currently on this week the iat2's climb pretty quickly, and drop pretty quickly too. Just depends on your setup, but I do agree that running a higher water content helps out drastically with cooling. I personally have never ran water wetter but I have heard good things about it. After my build is done I will give it a shot.
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There is alot of good info in this thread. I am going to try that wicked run 90% water and 10% coolant and see what my temps are like. My idc at 7200 rpm 2-4th gear is like 78% with the stock tvs pulley and e85. I am going to throw a 2.9 on and my idc should be right at 90 or 95% still safe. Some people think idc should be under 90 but the injectors work fine all the way to 99%.
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I hear ya Tom, I don't have the TVS on my car currently but when running it on the 2.7 I had NO issues with heat soaking in the least. Now on the m62 with a 2.6 that I am currently on this week the iat2's climb pretty quickly, and drop pretty quickly too. Just depends on your setup, but I do agree that running a higher water content helps out drastically with cooling. I personally have never ran water wetter but I have heard good things about it. After my build is done I will give it a shot.
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Ebristol - E85 or pump gas, iat2's still matter. The iat2's do not change just because the fuel is changing so they can still be discussed, CYL temps and EGT's might but that's a different story. The point is that iat2's are still very very important, you can't just disregard something like this and say "screw it I have e85" lol. If that were the case you wouldn't need an intercooler pump on e85. You will also start to realize that you can only get so much timing out of a car when temps are that high, even with a higher octane fuel. THIS is why iat2's will always be important, that and heat kills. High cyl temps are a no no and high iat2's don't help either fuel.
You know...I might be changing my mind about W/I a little after reading this article.
http://www.labontemotorsports.com/ontrack/WM101.pdf
I have heard about "parts" of that article before but I never read it myself.
What I found interesting was...
"The octane rating of water is infinite. It cant spontaneously combust as you cant burn water. Methanol is also a high octane fuel in itself."
and...
"As a rule of thumb, 50/50 Water/Methanol injection will increase the
octane rating of pump gas by 25% during injection."
^^^ The 25% is probably a generalization based off running 87 octane with a 50/50 mix. So if you running 93 octane the estimated octane gain would be < 25%.
The only problem with that article is the source. It was created by a company that sells Methanol Injection kits... So I am sure there is some bias.
Although I would probably not run a 50/50 mix because of the reliability issues associated with Meth injections kits, I would consider running straight water with a small nozzle using a TB spacer to keep the blower and IM cool.
It does not seem like it could hurt anything?
water having an infinite octane rating is kinda retarded....
you cant look at that in any productive way. adding any amount of infinity octane to your fuel would cease combustion altogether...
also, the 50/50 mox increasing octane 25% is also stupid. It depends entirely upon how much you inject... a M5 nozzle and quad M10 nozzles will have VERY different final octanes
you cant look at that in any productive way. adding any amount of infinity octane to your fuel would cease combustion altogether...
also, the 50/50 mox increasing octane 25% is also stupid. It depends entirely upon how much you inject... a M5 nozzle and quad M10 nozzles will have VERY different final octanes
It was a GENERALIZATION.
It was not a fact that could be applied to EVERY car running a meth injection kit. Although 99% of the people who read that article would understand that there could be differences between a M5 nozzle and 4 M10 nozzles, you made it a point to let everyone know that you understand! Congrats!
Thanks for keeping an open mind and your great contributions to this thread.
That is what i was commenting on
Way to take something out of context and make an obviously ridiculous comparison.
It was a GENERALIZATION.
It was not a fact that could be applied to EVERY car running a meth injection kit. Although 99% of the people who read that article would understand that there could be differences between a M5 nozzle and 4 M10 nozzles, you made it a point to let everyone know that you understand! Congrats!
Thanks for keeping an open mind and your great contributions to this thread.
It was a GENERALIZATION.
It was not a fact that could be applied to EVERY car running a meth injection kit. Although 99% of the people who read that article would understand that there could be differences between a M5 nozzle and 4 M10 nozzles, you made it a point to let everyone know that you understand! Congrats!
Thanks for keeping an open mind and your great contributions to this thread.
