Meth injection formula??
Ok ok... I'm starting to get this now. After KillinKrullin helped me work out a few kinks at dragway42 last night, I am realizing that Zoomer is right on some points and that I FAIL on a few points.
Zoomer is probably correct in that the 50% or less meth mix yields **** for HP gains. -20 washer fluid and "boost juice" are wek saus and are not flammable. They are only good for cooling down your IAT2 temps, they dont allow for the kind of timing increases that give good gains.
Schaeffer, this actually proves part of my point in why your car is running like dogshit. You are pumping 7gph of washer fluid into your motor with increased timing and it is probably flooding the engine with what is essentially water, causing you to lose power
Also I realize I failed cuz I had my meth nozzle in backwards. Krullin informed me that the screen goes INSIDE the npt elbow, not in teh intake tube side. No wonder it was only dribbling out when we tested it
However, Methanol injection is not bad. When done properly it will yield good gains and safer operating conditions.
Zoomer is probably correct in that the 50% or less meth mix yields **** for HP gains. -20 washer fluid and "boost juice" are wek saus and are not flammable. They are only good for cooling down your IAT2 temps, they dont allow for the kind of timing increases that give good gains.
Schaeffer, this actually proves part of my point in why your car is running like dogshit. You are pumping 7gph of washer fluid into your motor with increased timing and it is probably flooding the engine with what is essentially water, causing you to lose power
Also I realize I failed cuz I had my meth nozzle in backwards. Krullin informed me that the screen goes INSIDE the npt elbow, not in teh intake tube side. No wonder it was only dribbling out when we tested it
However, Methanol injection is not bad. When done properly it will yield good gains and safer operating conditions.
^^^mhmm.
Now I realize why zoomer is targeting the washer fluid / boost juice pepole. I definitely see how a well tuned car w/o meth will put down as much or slightly more power than someone running a garbage mix like washer fluid. I also thought I was seeing gains with that crap, now I realize it was just colder iat2 temps and increased timing to compensate for the loss of power.
I'm still a proponent of methanol injection, just not the wek saus mixtures.
Now I realize why zoomer is targeting the washer fluid / boost juice pepole. I definitely see how a well tuned car w/o meth will put down as much or slightly more power than someone running a garbage mix like washer fluid. I also thought I was seeing gains with that crap, now I realize it was just colder iat2 temps and increased timing to compensate for the loss of power.
I'm still a proponent of methanol injection, just not the wek saus mixtures.
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Joined: 12-19-09
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From: Harrisburg, pa
Quick question for Zoomer. Sorry to bring this thread back btw but I wanted to ask. If what you say is true about injecting water etc. etc. Why then was the entire idea of extra injection developed during world war 2 by engineers for their planes? Second question is why did it DEFINATELY yeild power! We are takling about a life and death situation here, and these engines were pumping an extra 10-20 percent more power injecting water!
Testing would have been done over and over and over again on these planes becuase the pilots life was at stake. Still they all contend that they gained hp over the original setup and tune. And before you say their tunes were **** just remember we were talking about planes that were depended on to save lives!
"Maximum normal power would be limited by a mechanical stop, for instance a wire across the throttle lever slot, but a more forceful push would break the wire allowing extra power. In normal service, the P-51H Mustang was rated at 1,380 hp, but WEP would deliver up to 2,218 hp.[3] The Vought F4U Corsair, not originally equipped for WEP, later boasted a power increase of up to 410 hp (17%) when WEP was engaged.[2] Several methods were used to boost engine power by manufacturers, including water injection and methanol-water injection."
This info is even better!
A limited number of road vehicles with large-displacement engines from manufacturers such as Chrysler have included water injection. Saab offered water injection for the Saab 99 Turbo. With the introduction of the intercooler the interest in water injection disappeared, but today, water injection is also of interest because it can potentially decrease nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions in exhaust. The most common use of water injection today is in vehicles with aftermarket forced induction systems, such as turbochargers or superchargers. Such engines are commonly tuned with a narrower margin of safety from detonation and hence benefit greatly from the cooling effects of vaporized water.
From Wikepedia. The whole article can be found here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_emergency_power
"In a piston engine, the initial injection of water cools the fuel-air mixture significantly, which increases its density and hence the amount of mixture that enters the cylinder. An additional effect comes later during combustion when the water absorbs large amounts of heat as it vaporizes, reducing peak temperature and resultant NOx formation, and reducing the amount of heat energy absorbed into the cylinder walls. The alcohol in the mixture burns, but is also much more resistant to detonation than gasoline. The net result is a higher octane charge that will support very high compression ratios or significant forced induction pressures before onset of detonation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)
Interesting and I wouldn't have known this but they also use water injection in turbine engines! Carefully reading in the second link will yeild that information if anyone is interested.
Extra info:
"Water injection has been used in both reciprocating and turbine aircraft engines.
Piston engines in military aircraft utilized water injection technology prior to World War II in order to increase takeoff power. This was used so that heavily-laden fighters could take off from shorter runways, climb faster, and quickly reach high altitudes to intercept enemy bomber formations.
As a general rule, the fuel mixture is set at full rich on an aircraft engine when running it at a high power settings (such as during takeoff). The extra fuel does not burn; its only purpose is to evaporate to absorb heat. This uses up more fuel, and it also decreases the efficiency of the combustion process. By using water injection, the cooling effect of the water allows the fuel mixture to be run leaner at its best-power setting. Many military aircraft engines of the 1940s utilized a pressure carburetor, a type of fuel metering system similar to a throttle body injection system. In a water-injected engine, the pressure carburetor features a mechanical derichment valve which makes the system nearly automatic. When the pilot turns on the water injection pump, water pressure moves the derichment valve to restrict fuel flow to lean the mixture while at the same time mixing the water/methanol fluid in to the system. When the system runs out of fluid the derichment valve shuts and cuts off the water injection system, while enrichening the fuel mixture to provide a cooling quench to prevent sudden detonation."
Very informative!
Testing would have been done over and over and over again on these planes becuase the pilots life was at stake. Still they all contend that they gained hp over the original setup and tune. And before you say their tunes were **** just remember we were talking about planes that were depended on to save lives!
"Maximum normal power would be limited by a mechanical stop, for instance a wire across the throttle lever slot, but a more forceful push would break the wire allowing extra power. In normal service, the P-51H Mustang was rated at 1,380 hp, but WEP would deliver up to 2,218 hp.[3] The Vought F4U Corsair, not originally equipped for WEP, later boasted a power increase of up to 410 hp (17%) when WEP was engaged.[2] Several methods were used to boost engine power by manufacturers, including water injection and methanol-water injection."
This info is even better!
A limited number of road vehicles with large-displacement engines from manufacturers such as Chrysler have included water injection. Saab offered water injection for the Saab 99 Turbo. With the introduction of the intercooler the interest in water injection disappeared, but today, water injection is also of interest because it can potentially decrease nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions in exhaust. The most common use of water injection today is in vehicles with aftermarket forced induction systems, such as turbochargers or superchargers. Such engines are commonly tuned with a narrower margin of safety from detonation and hence benefit greatly from the cooling effects of vaporized water.
From Wikepedia. The whole article can be found here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_emergency_power
"In a piston engine, the initial injection of water cools the fuel-air mixture significantly, which increases its density and hence the amount of mixture that enters the cylinder. An additional effect comes later during combustion when the water absorbs large amounts of heat as it vaporizes, reducing peak temperature and resultant NOx formation, and reducing the amount of heat energy absorbed into the cylinder walls. The alcohol in the mixture burns, but is also much more resistant to detonation than gasoline. The net result is a higher octane charge that will support very high compression ratios or significant forced induction pressures before onset of detonation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)
Interesting and I wouldn't have known this but they also use water injection in turbine engines! Carefully reading in the second link will yeild that information if anyone is interested.
Extra info:
"Water injection has been used in both reciprocating and turbine aircraft engines.
Piston engines in military aircraft utilized water injection technology prior to World War II in order to increase takeoff power. This was used so that heavily-laden fighters could take off from shorter runways, climb faster, and quickly reach high altitudes to intercept enemy bomber formations.
As a general rule, the fuel mixture is set at full rich on an aircraft engine when running it at a high power settings (such as during takeoff). The extra fuel does not burn; its only purpose is to evaporate to absorb heat. This uses up more fuel, and it also decreases the efficiency of the combustion process. By using water injection, the cooling effect of the water allows the fuel mixture to be run leaner at its best-power setting. Many military aircraft engines of the 1940s utilized a pressure carburetor, a type of fuel metering system similar to a throttle body injection system. In a water-injected engine, the pressure carburetor features a mechanical derichment valve which makes the system nearly automatic. When the pilot turns on the water injection pump, water pressure moves the derichment valve to restrict fuel flow to lean the mixture while at the same time mixing the water/methanol fluid in to the system. When the system runs out of fluid the derichment valve shuts and cuts off the water injection system, while enrichening the fuel mixture to provide a cooling quench to prevent sudden detonation."
Very informative!
Last edited by majeebus; Dec 21, 2009 at 10:18 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Your still not getting what Zooomer is trying to say.
Zooomer never said that Water Injection is not worth it.
What Zooomer is saying is:
The perception that spraying washer fluid into your engine to gain hp is not correct. And with Zooomer's $1000 Challenge, he will let you use washer fluid and one bottle of heat.
Basically it boils down to the meth/water ratio in the washer fluid. Most -20 washer fluid contains approx 30% methanol and 70% water. If you add 1 bottle of heat it will raise the meth content a few percentage points.
It has been proven the Water injection mixtures of approx 75% (and higher) methanol and 25% water will net gains in HP when properly tuned for. But Zooomer is not disputing that. He is disputing claims of approx. 50% (and lower) methanol and 50% water.
This was a good thread to bump. Last year about this time everyone and their mother were in love with Water Injection. By now, most people know that it has to used properly to gain hp.
Washer fluid does not work!
Here is a helpful spreadsheet to help determine Washer Fluid Methanol content.
http://oneidanation.org/uploadedFile...lculations.xls
Zooomer never said that Water Injection is not worth it.
What Zooomer is saying is:
The perception that spraying washer fluid into your engine to gain hp is not correct. And with Zooomer's $1000 Challenge, he will let you use washer fluid and one bottle of heat.
Basically it boils down to the meth/water ratio in the washer fluid. Most -20 washer fluid contains approx 30% methanol and 70% water. If you add 1 bottle of heat it will raise the meth content a few percentage points.
It has been proven the Water injection mixtures of approx 75% (and higher) methanol and 25% water will net gains in HP when properly tuned for. But Zooomer is not disputing that. He is disputing claims of approx. 50% (and lower) methanol and 50% water.
This was a good thread to bump. Last year about this time everyone and their mother were in love with Water Injection. By now, most people know that it has to used properly to gain hp.
Washer fluid does not work!
Here is a helpful spreadsheet to help determine Washer Fluid Methanol content.
http://oneidanation.org/uploadedFile...lculations.xls
Last edited by ebristol; Dec 22, 2009 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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From: Kissimmee, Fl
Play around with the mixtures. More meth = more timing.
I run 70/30 with the 5gph nozzle. Progressive.
I use it more for performance than cooling. Pre blower. (tapped into the intake pipe itself.)
I run 70/30 with the 5gph nozzle. Progressive.
I use it more for performance than cooling. Pre blower. (tapped into the intake pipe itself.)
Banned
Joined: 12-19-09
Posts: 81
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From: Harrisburg, pa
Your still not getting what Zooomer is trying to say.
Zooomer never said that Water Injection is not worth it.
What Zooomer is saying is:
The perception that spraying washer fluid into your engine to gain hp is not correct. And with Zooomer's $1000 Challenge, he will let you use washer fluid and one bottle of heat.
Basically it boils down to the meth/water ratio in the washer fluid. Most -20 washer fluid contains approx 30% methanol and 70% water. If you add 1 bottle of heat it will raise the meth content a few percentage points.
It has been proven the Water injection mixtures of approx 75% (and higher) methanol and 25% water will net gains in HP when properly tuned for. But Zooomer is not disputing that. He is disputing claims of approx. 50% (and lower) methanol and 50% water.
This was a good thread to bump. Last year about this time everyone and their mother were in love with Water Injection. By now, most people know that it has to used properly to gain hp.
Washer fluid does not work!
Here is a helpful spreadsheet to help determine Washer Fluid Methanol content.
http://oneidanation.org/uploadedFile...lculations.xls
Zooomer never said that Water Injection is not worth it.
What Zooomer is saying is:
The perception that spraying washer fluid into your engine to gain hp is not correct. And with Zooomer's $1000 Challenge, he will let you use washer fluid and one bottle of heat.
Basically it boils down to the meth/water ratio in the washer fluid. Most -20 washer fluid contains approx 30% methanol and 70% water. If you add 1 bottle of heat it will raise the meth content a few percentage points.
It has been proven the Water injection mixtures of approx 75% (and higher) methanol and 25% water will net gains in HP when properly tuned for. But Zooomer is not disputing that. He is disputing claims of approx. 50% (and lower) methanol and 50% water.
This was a good thread to bump. Last year about this time everyone and their mother were in love with Water Injection. By now, most people know that it has to used properly to gain hp.
Washer fluid does not work!
Here is a helpful spreadsheet to help determine Washer Fluid Methanol content.
http://oneidanation.org/uploadedFile...lculations.xls
Talk about mis-information. I can go to Walmart rigth now get their generic windshield washer fluid and look at the back and it will tell me 40/60 meth content.
You just threw out a bogus number and tried to play it off as FACT! Be precise when talking of this!
Any brand that Walmart carries IS considered the most because they are the biggest seller of this stuff in the US!
Please read those articles before you speak. They are also cited if you don't believe wikepedia!
I would like to test these theories. Unfortunately I cant afford to drive up to ZZP or rent a dyno for a couple hours to make the necessary adjustments between runs of: no meth, washer fluid, and 75/25 meth.
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From: Edmonton
If i still had my cobalt I would defently be down with trying this. Part of me agree's with zoomer but part of me doesnt and is still unclear. I'll lay abit of facts out
1st setup i had was 2.8" pulley, 60lb injectors, 1 step colder plugs and injen CAI. With a rough tune i made 230whp with IAT2 reaching 145* after 3 pulls.
2nd setup i had same mods as above but with a Cobalt Addiction heat exchanger and Devils Own Meth kit set up. Meth kit was set up 50/50 mix (methinal hydrate/water) on a 3gph nozzle. Once again rough tune, i made 243whp.
3rd setup i had TVS, CAI, H/E, Header, 3" downpipe, 3" exhaust and meth....changes to the meth were i switched to 75/25 mix and changed to a 7gph nozzle (changing nozzles was probably a bad idea) However with the meth change i was able to adjust my timing from 18* to 25* with a 11.9 afr. After 3 pulls on the highway in 30* weather temps, my IAT2* were only 140*....power was 281whp but that that doesnt matter since all the parts i changed. The thing that matters is the tune. Yes the tvs changes the airflow...however, shouldnt have anything to do with my timing.
Now what im unclear of Zoomer is, yes meth increases timing which increases the boost which increases hp. However the water keeps the IAT2 down. The first setup i was hitting 145* on a dyno in the same temp as i was in setup 3. Due to taking away 25% of the water in my mix my IAT2 stayed pretty much the same...although the increase in meth allowed me to advance the timing alot.
Like i said, i agree with you that people go with what the heard and all that, which is why if i still had my cobalt i would defently be down with this. I wanna see for myself if this is true or not.
Edit: Holy ****, old thread batman!
1st setup i had was 2.8" pulley, 60lb injectors, 1 step colder plugs and injen CAI. With a rough tune i made 230whp with IAT2 reaching 145* after 3 pulls.
2nd setup i had same mods as above but with a Cobalt Addiction heat exchanger and Devils Own Meth kit set up. Meth kit was set up 50/50 mix (methinal hydrate/water) on a 3gph nozzle. Once again rough tune, i made 243whp.
3rd setup i had TVS, CAI, H/E, Header, 3" downpipe, 3" exhaust and meth....changes to the meth were i switched to 75/25 mix and changed to a 7gph nozzle (changing nozzles was probably a bad idea) However with the meth change i was able to adjust my timing from 18* to 25* with a 11.9 afr. After 3 pulls on the highway in 30* weather temps, my IAT2* were only 140*....power was 281whp but that that doesnt matter since all the parts i changed. The thing that matters is the tune. Yes the tvs changes the airflow...however, shouldnt have anything to do with my timing.
Now what im unclear of Zoomer is, yes meth increases timing which increases the boost which increases hp. However the water keeps the IAT2 down. The first setup i was hitting 145* on a dyno in the same temp as i was in setup 3. Due to taking away 25% of the water in my mix my IAT2 stayed pretty much the same...although the increase in meth allowed me to advance the timing alot.
Like i said, i agree with you that people go with what the heard and all that, which is why if i still had my cobalt i would defently be down with this. I wanna see for myself if this is true or not.
Edit: Holy ****, old thread batman!
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Joined: 05-18-07
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From: Oklahoma City
Eveyone knows water/methanol injection is not voodoo.
Zoomer it gets me you are so anti meth injection. You know we sold a few thousand of these last year alone. We are not pullint the wool over that many people. Yes it does take another frame of mind when it comes to tunning a car for water/meth. If you need help call me. Ken or jim got my personal cell.
And what i find funny is DevilsOwn controllers are made in a building owned by ZZP so i am sure you got an idea what we are doing.
Zoomer it gets me you are so anti meth injection. You know we sold a few thousand of these last year alone. We are not pullint the wool over that many people. Yes it does take another frame of mind when it comes to tunning a car for water/meth. If you need help call me. Ken or jim got my personal cell.
And what i find funny is DevilsOwn controllers are made in a building owned by ZZP so i am sure you got an idea what we are doing.
Senior Member
Joined: 06-25-07
Posts: 6,003
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From: Kissimmee, Fl
Eveyone knows water/methanol injection is not voodoo.
Zoomer it gets me you are so anti meth injection. You know we sold a few thousand of these last year alone. We are not pullint the wool over that many people. Yes it does take another frame of mind when it comes to tunning a car for water/meth. If you need help call me. Ken or jim got my personal cell.
And what i find funny is DevilsOwn controllers are made in a building owned by ZZP so i am sure you got an idea what we are doing.
Zoomer it gets me you are so anti meth injection. You know we sold a few thousand of these last year alone. We are not pullint the wool over that many people. Yes it does take another frame of mind when it comes to tunning a car for water/meth. If you need help call me. Ken or jim got my personal cell.
And what i find funny is DevilsOwn controllers are made in a building owned by ZZP so i am sure you got an idea what we are doing.
2 gallon trunk mount tank, progressive controller.
Love everywhere.
Former Vendor
Joined: 05-18-07
Posts: 397
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From: Oklahoma City
Glade you love our kit. Wait till you see our new 2 gallon tank your going to love it even better when that comes out.
Oh check out this thread. https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/lounge-42/devilsown-forzamotorsports-3-xbox-199258/
we must be doing something right.
Oh check out this thread. https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/lounge-42/devilsown-forzamotorsports-3-xbox-199258/
we must be doing something right.
ive always been scepticle of running 50/50 just bc so much water seems like it would be bad. i am wanting meth here soon and lookin to mayb run a 60/40.
still learning this stuff tho bc i didnt think i would ever get meth.
still learning this stuff tho bc i didnt think i would ever get meth.
Former Vendor
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From: Oklahoma City
BlackJackSS, don't blame you with all the miss info around here.
Water/methanol injection biggest problem is people that think if a little is good more is better. You can't just keep put more in the motor and make more power. What happens is as you inject more you have to run more meth in the mix to make it run right. The goal of water/methanol injection is to inject just the right amount. So that the majority of it will evaporate as it goes thur the intake air tracks. The reason for this is as you remove the heat out of the air you ait sensor will see cooler temps and provide more timing. You can also have it more aggressively pull timing when you temps are to high. "best fail safe on the market is your factory iat sensor" But with the cooler intake air temps your motor is going to need less octane.
Call me with any questions.
Water/methanol injection biggest problem is people that think if a little is good more is better. You can't just keep put more in the motor and make more power. What happens is as you inject more you have to run more meth in the mix to make it run right. The goal of water/methanol injection is to inject just the right amount. So that the majority of it will evaporate as it goes thur the intake air tracks. The reason for this is as you remove the heat out of the air you ait sensor will see cooler temps and provide more timing. You can also have it more aggressively pull timing when you temps are to high. "best fail safe on the market is your factory iat sensor" But with the cooler intake air temps your motor is going to need less octane.
Call me with any questions.
Senior Member
Joined: 06-25-07
Posts: 6,003
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From: Kissimmee, Fl
As stated, I run a 70/30 mix. Allows me to pull 25.5* of timing with no knock. ANd still gives me a tad bit of cooling.
i see. i have no cooling mods yet. but in may or so ill be buying a h/e. figured id go ahead with the tune and meth now while i have the money and not burn a hole in my pocket with it.
ill be calling devilsown when i order to make sure i get what i need.
ill be calling devilsown when i order to make sure i get what i need.
http://www.peakantifreeze.com/msds/m...h_minus_25.pdf
I link the spreadsheet with the information. In most regions of the US, Walmart only sells -25 degree Washer fluid during the winter months. In the southern states you will not find it in Walmart EVER!
Read what they guy who lively hood rest on selling Meth Injection Kits.
Water/methanol injection biggest problem is people that think if a little is good more is better. You can't just keep put more in the motor and make more power. What happens is as you inject more you have to run more meth in the mix to make it run right. The goal of water/methanol injection is to inject just the right amount. So that the majority of it will evaporate as it goes thur the intake air tracks. The reason for this is as you remove the heat out of the air you ait sensor will see cooler temps and provide more timing. You can also have it more aggressively pull timing when you temps are to high. "best fail safe on the market is your factory iat sensor" But with the cooler intake air temps your motor is going to need less octane.
I think you guys have mis interpreted my opinion of Meth injection. I think it is great for those who need additional cooling and more octane. Its almost impossible to make more then 300whp on a TVS with out it.
I have a Devil's Own Meth kit sitting in my garage. I ran it on my car before I converted to E85. I am a believer in Meth Injection. I recommend it for those with out access to E85.
I am not spreading mis-information.
Yes, this thread is old. But...it still contains alot of good information within a constructive debate on a popular modificaiton.
I'm still wondering if the magic number is 75% methanol to yield power increases. We already established that washer fluid and boost juice arent strong enough mixes... but what about a 60% meth mixture for example? is that still not making any more power than say boost juice???
I'm still wondering if the magic number is 75% methanol to yield power increases. We already established that washer fluid and boost juice arent strong enough mixes... but what about a 60% meth mixture for example? is that still not making any more power than say boost juice???
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Joined: 12-19-09
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From: Harrisburg, pa
Ebristol again I say READ the ARTICLE. The JET engine is only talked about for one paragraph! They used Water and Methanol (50/50) on a PISTON ENGINE with a SUPERCHARGER (sound familiar) and GAINED a TON of POWER. You are now arguing with HISTORICAL evidence.
NO ONE is saying that you bolt it on to make power. Even in those engines from 1942 there was a clear tunable reason why injecting water or methanol made them power. Just to let you know a tad bit of info on my end.
I don't have a car computer like you do. I have a megasquirt which is a standalone engine management system that controls fuel and timing based on a 16x16 map for both. I don't have a computer that magically takes out ofr adds timing based on the IAT I have to do it. I also have and eaton m62 supercharger bolted on a shafted setup one my 2.5 litre v6.
Now I have NO heat exchanger or intercooler to speak of. On 7psi my supercharger is spinning at around 11,500 rpms to 12,500 rpms. My IATs went up to 150 degrees. Now the only way to keep my timing maps in the 20s was to add enough fuel to cool the cylinder which obviously messed up the tune and meant that I was LOSING power.
With the methanol on 7psi my iats were at 80 degrees hence I could add timing until I lost hp. On this setup I was making 245whp up from the 222 I made before.
I'm still ironing out issues with the supercharger on 10psi but that will be soon.
Also My only other point of contention is that all this is being used as is a chemical intercooler thats it! And obviously its working. When you are lowering your intake temps from 150 to 180 down to 80 you are doing something right. I have never used anything other then windshield washer fluid! Also It may be by region but I can go to any walmart and anytime and get the -20 or -25 fluid without hassle. This is in the summer months as well.
Oh and btw just because a bunch of NOOBS thought they could just bolt on a kit and spray washer fluid and they lost hp doesnt mean that washer fluid doesn't work.
Also I am more than skeptical that injecting methanol or alcohol at 100% will gain hp without so much as a tune. You have to mess with the timing to get it to work with the engine! Adding more fuel chemically retards the combustion which is why you advance timing in the first place!
NO ONE is saying that you bolt it on to make power. Even in those engines from 1942 there was a clear tunable reason why injecting water or methanol made them power. Just to let you know a tad bit of info on my end.
I don't have a car computer like you do. I have a megasquirt which is a standalone engine management system that controls fuel and timing based on a 16x16 map for both. I don't have a computer that magically takes out ofr adds timing based on the IAT I have to do it. I also have and eaton m62 supercharger bolted on a shafted setup one my 2.5 litre v6.
Now I have NO heat exchanger or intercooler to speak of. On 7psi my supercharger is spinning at around 11,500 rpms to 12,500 rpms. My IATs went up to 150 degrees. Now the only way to keep my timing maps in the 20s was to add enough fuel to cool the cylinder which obviously messed up the tune and meant that I was LOSING power.
With the methanol on 7psi my iats were at 80 degrees hence I could add timing until I lost hp. On this setup I was making 245whp up from the 222 I made before.
I'm still ironing out issues with the supercharger on 10psi but that will be soon.
Also My only other point of contention is that all this is being used as is a chemical intercooler thats it! And obviously its working. When you are lowering your intake temps from 150 to 180 down to 80 you are doing something right. I have never used anything other then windshield washer fluid! Also It may be by region but I can go to any walmart and anytime and get the -20 or -25 fluid without hassle. This is in the summer months as well.
Oh and btw just because a bunch of NOOBS thought they could just bolt on a kit and spray washer fluid and they lost hp doesnt mean that washer fluid doesn't work.
Also I am more than skeptical that injecting methanol or alcohol at 100% will gain hp without so much as a tune. You have to mess with the timing to get it to work with the engine! Adding more fuel chemically retards the combustion which is why you advance timing in the first place!
Last edited by majeebus; Dec 23, 2009 at 12:06 PM.
Former Vendor
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From: Oklahoma City
Just bolting this onto a car will generaly not make any more power. anyone that belives you can't tune more power out of a car with 40-100 deg cooler intake air temps does not know much about tuning. Like i said if you inject too much into a engine you have to run more methanol in the mix to make it work right. This does not make it right just makes it a band-aid. There is no magic number of mix but i can tell you that water will remove more heat out of the air compared to equal amount of methanol.
Banned
Joined: 06-03-08
Posts: 4,383
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From: Edmonton
Senior Member
Joined: 06-03-07
Posts: 14,142
Likes: 71
From: NY
Why the hell do you guys make everything into an argument?????
get the **** off your high horse. its pure immaturaity, what ever happened to a friendly competition?
i was serious about coming out to do this, i think it would be fun either way. but you just had to say something smart didnt you.
get the **** off your high horse. its pure immaturaity, what ever happened to a friendly competition?
i was serious about coming out to do this, i think it would be fun either way. but you just had to say something smart didnt you.
It's a simple case of the informed vs. the mis-informed.
The informed know what is right and what is wrong, and the mis-informed now understand what is correct yet still continue to argue because they don't have the willpower to admit they they were wrong.
Say it out loud, folks. "I am wrong."
See, you're still alive.