Upgraded S/C...
09-12-2006, 01:34 PM
#51
LSX RWD S/C conversion
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Originally Posted by articzap
you clearly stated in your post that i quoted that the turbo powers the s/c not feeds. can only go by wat u say
09-12-2006, 01:41 PM
#52
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Hasn't everyone seen the twincharged redline? The guy had a 3.8" supercharger pulley on his car which is .5" LARGER than stock with a custom idler pulley. He then had a nice turbo on and at the intake manifold (MAP Sensor located here where the boost is measured from) he produced 21.5psi. He had no internals and had a cosmetic head gasket with ARP bolts, thats it. After tuning he made 335whp. That is just moderate tuning and a dual pass intercooler. Now imagine upgrading all the other cooling stuff, not wasting the space and money on air to air and just increasing the efficiency of the water to air (which is 85% efficient stock anyways), you could make a hell of a lot more power and add a lot more timing.
If you keep the supercharger internals you might as well not mess with air to air also because it will still go into the supercharger and heat right back up. Use all the space you have for the water to air upgrades and meth injection.
Even if you go full turbo, which I have contemplated, you should just block off the end of the s/c so there is no snout, remove the internals and use the s/c as a big intake plenum. This also will allow you to use the water to air intercooler system and it will be below ambient, more than likely (depending on mods), because turbo heat is less than what one with a 2.5" pulley can create.
As for upgrading the s/c, Cobalts are limited due to lack of space. The front shroud is right up on the s/c where the ION RL has TONS of space up front! I could easily fab a M90 onto my RL, I just don't have a M90 or the money to buy one right now. It will just require an adapter plate.
There is a Kenne Bell 1.7L which could, with lots of fabrication, possibly fit on these cars, but they discontinued the 1.7L and upgraded it to a big bore 2.2L. Then whipple has a 1200AX and a 1600AX which, once again with lots of fabrication, fit on these cars. You would just have to buy used of those too because they are discontinued.
If you keep the supercharger internals you might as well not mess with air to air also because it will still go into the supercharger and heat right back up. Use all the space you have for the water to air upgrades and meth injection.
Even if you go full turbo, which I have contemplated, you should just block off the end of the s/c so there is no snout, remove the internals and use the s/c as a big intake plenum. This also will allow you to use the water to air intercooler system and it will be below ambient, more than likely (depending on mods), because turbo heat is less than what one with a 2.5" pulley can create.
As for upgrading the s/c, Cobalts are limited due to lack of space. The front shroud is right up on the s/c where the ION RL has TONS of space up front! I could easily fab a M90 onto my RL, I just don't have a M90 or the money to buy one right now. It will just require an adapter plate.
There is a Kenne Bell 1.7L which could, with lots of fabrication, possibly fit on these cars, but they discontinued the 1.7L and upgraded it to a big bore 2.2L. Then whipple has a 1200AX and a 1600AX which, once again with lots of fabrication, fit on these cars. You would just have to buy used of those too because they are discontinued.
09-12-2006, 01:43 PM
#53
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http://come.to/twincharger this is the right way to do this...
09-12-2006, 01:44 PM
#54
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The Idea is the S/C will build boost down low so you can use a bigger turbo and won't have to wait to spool it . The problem comes in when the S/C can't flow any more and now the turbo is dead heading it's boost to fix this you need to look at vw's aproach or nissan did this in a jdm pulsar . Now what ? If this worked so well then you'd see alot more of them or more people in all aspects of racing doing it . There is no way this will out preform a well set up turbo only system .
I do look foward to you guys and girls pushing this foward I just think you'll be better of with a turbo only kit , Like the 03-04 cobra guys are doing to there S/C cars .
I do look foward to you guys and girls pushing this foward I just think you'll be better of with a turbo only kit , Like the 03-04 cobra guys are doing to there S/C cars .
09-12-2006, 01:48 PM
#55
Originally Posted by badg1rl
^^^ get cracking boy...LOL
09-12-2006, 01:50 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by ludicristSS
The Idea is the S/C will build boost down low so you can use a bigger turbo and won't have to wait to spool it . The problem comes in when the S/C can't flow any more and now the turbo is dead heading it's boost to fix this you need to look at vw's aproach or nissan did this in a jdm pulsar . Now what ? If this worked so well then you'd see alot more of them or more people in all aspects of racing doing it . There is no way this will out preform a well set up turbo only system .
I do look foward to you guys and girls pushing this foward I just think you'll be better of with a turbo only kit , Like the 03-04 cobra guys are doing to there S/C cars .
I do look foward to you guys and girls pushing this foward I just think you'll be better of with a turbo only kit , Like the 03-04 cobra guys are doing to there S/C cars .
Now the turbo on the Solstice GXP and SKY RL is very good! That thing is designed to build torque down low, which is what most turbos lack. That is why on the dyno the SRL shows 260lb/ft around 3200rpm and holding it there to redline.
The turbo has these little fins that don't open up and create more use of the turbo until the upper end while the fins being closed allows the torque to increase at a really low area low in the powerband.
09-12-2006, 02:07 PM
#57
Senior Member
here is my whipple thread.
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lsj-performance-tech-47/whipple-sucks-30919/
Whipple or bust
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lsj-performance-tech-47/whipple-sucks-30919/
Whipple or bust
09-12-2006, 02:12 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by CobaltSS313
09-12-2006, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by vandy0419
As far as a daily driver car, yes it is worth it. For 1/4 mi it is skeptic on which is best depending on which turbo you have. As far as 1/8th mile, sticking with just the s/c is your best bet.
Now the turbo on the Solstice GXP and SKY RL is very good! That thing is designed to build torque down low, which is what most turbos lack. That is why on the dyno the SRL shows 260lb/ft around 3200rpm and holding it there to redline.
The turbo has these little fins that don't open up and create more use of the turbo until the upper end while the fins being closed allows the torque to increase at a really low area low in the powerband.
Now the turbo on the Solstice GXP and SKY RL is very good! That thing is designed to build torque down low, which is what most turbos lack. That is why on the dyno the SRL shows 260lb/ft around 3200rpm and holding it there to redline.
The turbo has these little fins that don't open up and create more use of the turbo until the upper end while the fins being closed allows the torque to increase at a really low area low in the powerband.
For around $3500 we can do a turbo conversion who wants to try it ?
09-12-2006, 03:35 PM
#60
Senior Member
Originally Posted by ludicristSS
Daily driver = twincharged ? A single turbo will be a better overall in every aspect . If you want to spend the extra cash on a variable vain turbo thats up to you .
For around $3500 we can do a turbo conversion who wants to try it ?
For around $3500 we can do a turbo conversion who wants to try it ?
Also, $3500? All someone needs is a turbo manifold from a SAAB 2.0 ($200), Larger turbo and a different flange to swap on the manifold ($450), mandrel bent pipes ($80), SAAB Turbo upgraded downpipe ($200), oil lines ($50). Since we have the holes for the oil lines and all those SAAB parts work out perfect fitting on these cars that is less than a grand. Tuning, you just need someone with HP Tuners.
09-12-2006, 04:50 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by vandy0419
Yes twincharged...to be running 20+psi on a turbo for a daily driver can't be that wonderful.
Also, $3500? All someone needs is a turbo manifold from a SAAB 2.0 ($200), Larger turbo and a different flange to swap on the manifold ($450), mandrel bent pipes ($80), SAAB Turbo upgraded downpipe ($200), oil lines ($50). Since we have the holes for the oil lines and all those SAAB parts work out perfect fitting on these cars that is less than a grand. Tuning, you just need someone with HP Tuners.
Also, $3500? All someone needs is a turbo manifold from a SAAB 2.0 ($200), Larger turbo and a different flange to swap on the manifold ($450), mandrel bent pipes ($80), SAAB Turbo upgraded downpipe ($200), oil lines ($50). Since we have the holes for the oil lines and all those SAAB parts work out perfect fitting on these cars that is less than a grand. Tuning, you just need someone with HP Tuners.
09-12-2006, 08:12 PM
#62
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the only way i would think twincharging would be very beneficial is like the V dubber way. which could be done on the cobalt but u would need a turbo manifold or a custom manifold so you can have a dual setup like almost like twin turbo.supercharger on its on and turbo on its own and on and off clutches for the supercharger and turbo so at a certain rpm one turns on and one turns off.
im not putting down ne one's way about going to get power. in the beginning of this thread we were stating our opinions. Dont matter on how much money or time is spent it was basically about wat was more efficient on getting power.
on the cobalt if the supercharger is left the way it is to the mainifold i dont see much more power getting pushed out of it. turbo will spool up and push what 20lbs+ psi into the supercharger the supercharger is going to break that down and only push maybe 25lbs+ maybe the supercharger is still only rated for a certain amount. after the turbo spools up its just adding better flow into the supercharger not sure if that will effect flow out of the supercharger since the supercharger has the same amount of room as stock thats the same reason why if you get an m90 or just a bigger eaton you will still push the same amount of psi but at a better cfm.
im not putting down ne one's way about going to get power. in the beginning of this thread we were stating our opinions. Dont matter on how much money or time is spent it was basically about wat was more efficient on getting power.
on the cobalt if the supercharger is left the way it is to the mainifold i dont see much more power getting pushed out of it. turbo will spool up and push what 20lbs+ psi into the supercharger the supercharger is going to break that down and only push maybe 25lbs+ maybe the supercharger is still only rated for a certain amount. after the turbo spools up its just adding better flow into the supercharger not sure if that will effect flow out of the supercharger since the supercharger has the same amount of room as stock thats the same reason why if you get an m90 or just a bigger eaton you will still push the same amount of psi but at a better cfm.
09-12-2006, 08:21 PM
#63
LSX RWD S/C conversion
iTrader: (2)
Originally Posted by Disturbancetkxe
the only way i would think twincharging would be very beneficial is like the V dubber way. which could be done on the cobalt but u would need a turbo manifold or a custom manifold so you can have a dual setup like almost like twin turbo.supercharger on its on and turbo on its own and on and off clutches for the supercharger and turbo so at a certain rpm one turns on and one turns off.
im not putting down ne one's way about going to get power. in the beginning of this thread we were stating our opinions. Dont matter on how much money or time is spent it was basically about wat was more efficient on getting power.
on the cobalt if the supercharger is left the way it is to the mainifold i dont see much more power getting pushed out of it. turbo will spool up and push what 20lbs+ psi into the supercharger the supercharger is going to break that down and only push maybe 25lbs+ maybe the supercharger is still only rated for a certain amount. after the turbo spools up its just adding better flow into the supercharger not sure if that will effect flow out of the supercharger since the supercharger has the same amount of room as stock thats the same reason why if you get an m90 or just a bigger eaton you will still push the same amount of psi but at a better cfm.
im not putting down ne one's way about going to get power. in the beginning of this thread we were stating our opinions. Dont matter on how much money or time is spent it was basically about wat was more efficient on getting power.
on the cobalt if the supercharger is left the way it is to the mainifold i dont see much more power getting pushed out of it. turbo will spool up and push what 20lbs+ psi into the supercharger the supercharger is going to break that down and only push maybe 25lbs+ maybe the supercharger is still only rated for a certain amount. after the turbo spools up its just adding better flow into the supercharger not sure if that will effect flow out of the supercharger since the supercharger has the same amount of room as stock thats the same reason why if you get an m90 or just a bigger eaton you will still push the same amount of psi but at a better cfm.
09-12-2006, 08:58 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by victory_red_SS
If a S\C just pushes air faster and a turbo compresses the air first, why would not more air be pushed into the engine?
09-12-2006, 09:12 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by articzap
The main drawback of this configuration is that at high speeds, the supercharger (as it is driven by belts) will increase drag upon the engine, limiting the top end power. The Volkswagen Twincharging System overcomes this by locating the supercharger's pulley on a clutch system, which is automatically engaged and disengaged by the computer. This allows the car to keep its top-end performance and automatically switch to supercharging at low RPM. The only drawback is that the supercharger still creates drag in the airflow system, even when the clutch is off and the turbocharger is on. To overcome this, complex piping must be used to bypass the supercharger at high RPMs.
direct quote i found from some vw thing
basically at higher rpms id bet your losing somewhere around 20-40 whp if not more and raising air intake temps. unless your doin wat vw did, i think you need to rethink or idea or start designing the adapter plate for a turbo.
just be clear that im not puttin down your project at all, im glad your the first, i jsut htink that twincharging is the most inefficent way to get there
direct quote i found from some vw thing
basically at higher rpms id bet your losing somewhere around 20-40 whp if not more and raising air intake temps. unless your doin wat vw did, i think you need to rethink or idea or start designing the adapter plate for a turbo.
just be clear that im not puttin down your project at all, im glad your the first, i jsut htink that twincharging is the most inefficent way to get there
The supercharger is upstream from the turbo. Also the M62 takes about 1/2 hp when the bypass valve is open. All you have to do is open the bypass to relieve the drag.
09-12-2006, 09:14 PM
#66
LSX RWD S/C conversion
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Originally Posted by Disturbancetkxe
the s/c wouldnt push it faster its just taking compressed air from the turbo and the air spreads out in the s/c and re-compresses. its not going to move it faster honestly i think the air will slow down from start because the turbo will have to spool up.
09-13-2006, 08:46 AM
#67
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Originally Posted by zinner
Actually the VW twin charge system is complete different than what VictoryRed is going for.
The supercharger is upstream from the turbo. Also the M62 takes about 1/2 hp when the bypass valve is open. All you have to do is open the bypass to relieve the drag.
The supercharger is upstream from the turbo. Also the M62 takes about 1/2 hp when the bypass valve is open. All you have to do is open the bypass to relieve the drag.
yeah we know its completely different we been saying that the vw style is better way of twincharging but since gm put the supercharger differently its harder to do unless you switch a whole manifold. and run some crazy piping
I didnt mean turbo lag. the turbo will still be feeding the supercharger. so im guessing theres going to be a Y pipe coming off the supercharger one for cai and one for turbo. you are right there isnt going to be ne delay of getting air. but the turbo compresses air and pushes it to the supercharger now the compressed air is going to spread out a little inside the supercharger and get recompressed. which is kinda redundent two chargers that one turbo could do with out the supercharger and the turbo would make more power.
you will gain power we were saying you wouldnt it was opinion two much work to gain numbers that could be easily reached by just adding a turbo. if you were to re pipe how the supercharger is connected and add twincharging the way vw did which is all by clutches then you wouldnt loose ne power from the supercharger and then you would gain the big numbers of a turbo.
sry for the confusion of my posts i type them up quick before work. or at work
09-13-2006, 09:02 AM
#69
Senior Member
Originally Posted by ludicristSS
You forgot some stuff sport . Intercooler [ ebay crap $250 decent $600] Turbo [Name brand] $650-1000 ,Mandrel bent pipes a J/U bend is $70 by itself . I like your idea but your no where near $1000 + Dyno time your looking at close to $2500 for parts + Dyno time and labor . BTW how do you know the parts will work the 9-3 is built on an larger chassis ? Oh you need an intake manifold .
Turbo, already priced it out with a local fab shop that is a distributor with a major turbo company. Looking at the turbo manifold for the twincharged redline it is merely identical to the turbo manifold on a 9-3. Tuning...easy, going into a 4 person buy of HP Tuners...unlimited tuning for $165
Then there is about an hour of fine tuning it afterwards. Also, with HP Tuners you can just plug in the Innovate Motorsports Lambda and it gives you the Wideband reading.
09-13-2006, 09:04 AM
#70
Senior Member
Originally Posted by zinner
Actually the VW twin charge system is complete different than what VictoryRed is going for.
The supercharger is upstream from the turbo. Also the M62 takes about 1/2 hp when the bypass valve is open. All you have to do is open the bypass to relieve the drag.
The supercharger is upstream from the turbo. Also the M62 takes about 1/2 hp when the bypass valve is open. All you have to do is open the bypass to relieve the drag.
09-13-2006, 09:10 AM
#71
Senior Member
Originally Posted by 06blackg85ss
One question... I personally have no experience in the twin charging realm... but wouldn't the air being sucked in by the s/c actually help spin up the turbo quicker if they both go through the same intake piping thats after the turbo?
09-13-2006, 09:18 AM
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Donna what size turbo u running...from my calculatiosn if ur running a 2.85 that turbo is way outta its efficiency range since they need a pressure differential and flow to get into peak efficiency area...by optimizing the s/c operating presseure witht he turbos lots o power could be made...was a big reason why twincharged's car had a 3.8..that ad the compounding factor of boosted air into a s/c
Dan
btw id love to tune ur car lol
Dan
btw id love to tune ur car lol
09-13-2006, 11:06 AM
#74
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a few things to keep in mind first one being that the eaton supercharger uses very little horsepower when its not compressing air 1/3 of 1 horsepower iirc so it doesnt matter wether your at idle or spinning the charger at 15,000 rpms as long as its not compressing its not using alot of power
so lets just say that at 7,000 rpms our cars are making 250 hp with a stg 2 +2.8 (example) and that 50 horspower is used to turn the blower itself so if there was a way to create a 0 degree pressure differential prior to the blower then the car wouldnt have to spend the energy compressing the air between the rotors
this is where twin charging comes in if the pressure differential is 0 then the car will be making 300 hp (gaining the 50 back because the engine no longer need to waste its energy spining and compressing the air inside the supercharger)
now the tricky part is when it comes to creating a positive pressure on the intake side of the supercharger the balance between enough + pressure and intake side to make power but not so much that the air cant get past the rotors fast enough, this is where the problem will be in makeing the setup work well
this was just a example theres lots of things that effect power air temp rotational losses etc. this was just an example ( this disclaimer is because i know someone will be like "yea but the flux capasitor will engauge at 88 miles an hour and there wont be enough power to charge the dilithium crystals to sustain maximum warp core stabilization"
so lets just say that at 7,000 rpms our cars are making 250 hp with a stg 2 +2.8 (example) and that 50 horspower is used to turn the blower itself so if there was a way to create a 0 degree pressure differential prior to the blower then the car wouldnt have to spend the energy compressing the air between the rotors
this is where twin charging comes in if the pressure differential is 0 then the car will be making 300 hp (gaining the 50 back because the engine no longer need to waste its energy spining and compressing the air inside the supercharger)
now the tricky part is when it comes to creating a positive pressure on the intake side of the supercharger the balance between enough + pressure and intake side to make power but not so much that the air cant get past the rotors fast enough, this is where the problem will be in makeing the setup work well
this was just a example theres lots of things that effect power air temp rotational losses etc. this was just an example ( this disclaimer is because i know someone will be like "yea but the flux capasitor will engauge at 88 miles an hour and there wont be enough power to charge the dilithium crystals to sustain maximum warp core stabilization"
09-13-2006, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Serpico
a few things to keep in mind first one being that the eaton supercharger uses very little horsepower when its not compressing air 1/3 of 1 horsepower iirc so it doesnt matter wether your at idle or spinning the charger at 15,000 rpms as long as its not compressing its not using alot of power
so lets just say that at 7,000 rpms our cars are making 250 hp with a stg 2 +2.8 (example) and that 50 horspower is used to turn the blower itself so if there was a way to create a 0 degree pressure differential prior to the blower then the car wouldnt have to spend the energy compressing the air between the rotors
this is where twin charging comes in if the pressure differential is 0 then the car will be making 300 hp (gaining the 50 back because the engine no longer need to waste its energy spining and compressing the air inside the supercharger)
now the tricky part is when it comes to creating a positive pressure on the intake side of the supercharger the balance between enough + pressure and intake side to make power but not so much that the air cant get past the rotors fast enough, this is where the problem will be in makeing the setup work well
this was just a example theres lots of things that effect power air temp rotational losses etc. this was just an example ( this disclaimer is because i know someone will be like "yea but the flux capasitor will engauge at 88 miles an hour and there wont be enough power to charge the dilithium crystals to sustain maximum warp core stabilization"
so lets just say that at 7,000 rpms our cars are making 250 hp with a stg 2 +2.8 (example) and that 50 horspower is used to turn the blower itself so if there was a way to create a 0 degree pressure differential prior to the blower then the car wouldnt have to spend the energy compressing the air between the rotors
this is where twin charging comes in if the pressure differential is 0 then the car will be making 300 hp (gaining the 50 back because the engine no longer need to waste its energy spining and compressing the air inside the supercharger)
now the tricky part is when it comes to creating a positive pressure on the intake side of the supercharger the balance between enough + pressure and intake side to make power but not so much that the air cant get past the rotors fast enough, this is where the problem will be in makeing the setup work well
this was just a example theres lots of things that effect power air temp rotational losses etc. this was just an example ( this disclaimer is because i know someone will be like "yea but the flux capasitor will engauge at 88 miles an hour and there wont be enough power to charge the dilithium crystals to sustain maximum warp core stabilization"
air wont go past teh blades air will be forced into intake mani at pressurized level basically makes exponential boost...i explained this inmore detail in other threads