soundjunky

iTrader: (4)

the j-body guys are all about the F23;
it has been proven to be a good transmission - and capable of living behind a motor well in excess of GM's torque rating...

Quaife even offers a limited slip differential for them.

08baltls

iTrader: (3)

I looked last night after talking to seceral people who've built up ecotecs locally and I e figured out roughly $8k for the build up. A lot of our parts are specialty market parts so a lot of the people selling them are kinda gouging on markup. Lower end all you really need to do is swap rods and pistons. Screw forged pistons though, you really don't need them for 300hp. Get a hypereutectic piston. They hold up just fine under about 450hp and you can het em for about $35 a piece. The lower end really needs just that replaced. Between bearings rods and pistins you can build the lower end for about $1500. Valve train really just needs to be opened up to breathe better. A mild cam and port and polish will work just fine give. That the valves and springs are in good shape still. Then just add bigger injectors cause you'll need the extra fuel. To make the extra power just toss on a turbo and call it good. With that and a tune you'll reliably make 250 hp and havve no issues.

Just my two centa though.

soundjunky

iTrader: (4)

it's not so much that the market you're looking at is being gouged;
it's more like:

less demand = smaller run = required higher markup to cover costs & still make money

roughly $500 for pistons for a 4-banger is nothing new...
the cost of cams for a GM 4-banger is nothing new...

but if you were to set the bar back a notch - as in 300bhp or 250ish whp then you would obviously be able to do this cheaper...

08baltls

iTrader: (3)

Thays what I'm saying. Most of the smaller dealers if parts aren't selling them everyday so they markup quite a bit to still make a profit on something they sit on for a while. However, alot of people automatically say that with any power imcrease that you're gonna have to have forged pistons which isn't always true. If you're going for 500 hp or planing on running 25psi of boost then yeah forged pistons are a good idea but for normal applications like most of us are going for, hypereutectics are just fine. And going with a bigger parts distributor like jegs or summit gets you better prices. Like $150 for pistons that are just fine as.opposed to $500 for pistons. Hell one of the parts distributors on here charges over $100 more for stainless valves then one of the major parts distributors. Not gonna name names though.

Maven

iTrader: (1)

There is no reason you need to spend $8000 to build a 350hp 2.2

Rods($350), rod bearings($30), pistons and rings($500), head gasket and head bolts($175), valve springs($300), clutch ($400) and a turbo kit($4000). Unless youre including labor to do all the work youre still well under $6000 for everything brand new and top of the line.

If all you want is 250whp, all you need is ZZPs $2600 STG2 turbo kit. Install it and rip.




PS: Id love to see these $150 ECO pistons youre talking about, besides the fact that I have never seen a non-forged high performance piston for an ECO, theres no point in taking out the stock cast pistons and putting in different cast pistons. If youre upgrading pistons you put in forged/

soundjunky

iTrader: (4)

granted I'm not familiar with product offerings or the companies which offer them to this market, but the key is the upper ring land;
GM Performance Division was already writing about his in 2002(?) - and this was one of the upgrades done for the LSJ...
but even with the LSJ, going with a combination that does more than 300bhp will break the upper ring land on the stock pistons...
if you doubt me look it up...

08baltls

iTrader: (3)

Sealed Power ZH1120CT - Speed-Pro Hypereutectic Pistons - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Those pistons work just fine for building the power that we are talking about here. There is absolutely no need for forged pistons on an engine under 400hp. Hell man, I've used hypereutectics on a 450whp 383 stroker. They hold up just fine. This whole myth of needing forged pistons for anything that involves adding reliable power is just nonsense. There is a time and place for forged pistons, but this is not it.

And as Ive said in another thread, general wear and tear on the engine before you boost it is gonna play a major factor on what all needs to be done and how long the added boost will hold up in the engine before it lets go. Adding a Stage 2 turbo kit to a 100k mile car and expecting it to hold up for long under the new driving patterns that a boosted car bring is absolutely ridiculous. You're gonna spin a bearing with in a few months. Believe me I know first hand about that. Just adding a turbo is generally not a good idea unless you plan on babying it (which lets face it, most of us arent gonna do), or its a fairly new motor.

Talking about power adding automatically means that the car has probably already been driven relatively hard. That in turns means that parts are probably starting to wear already. Now add a turbo and you make the problem more pronounced even faster. Its common sense.

Im not trying to start a fight here, Im just trying to say that most people will need other things added to keep the boosted car working for a while to come without issue. And that you dont always have to add the parts that cost the most because they arent always worth it. Under normal circumstances you are right, just add a turbo and go, but there are hardly ever perfect circumstances where a used car is that lucky. You gotta look at more factors then just what the car can handle brand new.

Maven

iTrader: (1)

Alright you got me.....cast pistons on a performance website I would consider those stock replacement though and not an upgrade.

You cant compare a 450hp 383cubic inch engine to a 350hp 134 cubic inch engine. the stresses and loads are completely different. A 450hp 383 is a mild build, all you need 10:1 comprtession ratio to get 450hp from a small block. It the equivalent of approximately a basic bolt-on L61. a 350hp 2.2 needs forged pistons. /thread

I agree with you on the state of engine currently determining what you need to build with, but 250hp is easily achieved with under 10spi boost. Like I said, 350hp including "supporting" upgrades is a matter of about $5700 or so in parts straight off of supporting vendors. Careful shopping could easily reduce that number quite a bit. ($1000 or more potentially)

soundjunky

iTrader: (4)

would you chance share an opinion which can have devastating effects to another CSS member?

GMTunerSource.com - Gallery - Category: Blast From The Past; ECOtec Origins
Solstice GXP Owners Forums - View Single Post - GM Racing's 747-horse 2.0L I4 Ecotec Turbo Drag Engine!

look over the article (took some time to find it btw);
it clearly states at what point what breaks.

Also if you read the warnings & info associated with the GMS3 you will see that GMPD clearly stated that the first weak link in an LSJ above the GMS3 power levels was the upper ring land...

A local here who sold his SS/SC last year was running a TVS with a mild tune, and decided to freshen up his engine, and do a PP&P on the head;
low and behold when he took the head off he saw that two of his pistons had broken ring lands;
the ring was holding the ****** of piston in place - which was all that was preventing from some serious damage...
he wasn't the first person who I read to have dealt with this - and I doubt he will be the last.

Regaurding your comparing your 450hp 383 to a 300hp 2.2eco;
You're comparing a 71.7hp/Liter engine to a 136.37hp/Liter engine ~ the ecotec is putting out nearly double the power (1.9x to be exact) as the stroker small block...
I'd suggest that the lower hp/L engine would have significantly less stress being exerted on the piston face (or at least that one tidbit I've come to understand)...
But my haphazard facts aside, flat out - you cannot compare two different engines - parts are spec'd different, so at best it's an apples to oranges comparison.

I too am not looking to start any fight - but I'd rather give advice that is on the cautionary side of things than chance having another forum member cursing my name becasue I gave bad advice and put him in a bad spot.
That's all I'm getting at.

08baltls

iTrader: (3)

I dont consider Summit to be a performance part dealer, so your assanine laughter is a bit retarded. All Im saying by posting those is that you DONT need forged pistons for 300hp. (/thread as you put it) Considering that bolting on just a turbo and going with it, like you said should be done, seems like a fairly mild build, those hypereutectics will hold up just fine. Thats using your logic, not mine. Im fairly sure that I could keep the stock pistons and just swap the rods and boost the motor to 250hp and have everything hold up just fine, cause realistically youre gonna spin a bearing before you destroy a piston head anyway in a situation like this, but if you've got everything apart you might as well toss new pistons in anyway. Forged pistons are just a redundancy in a 250whp L61. Its an added $400 that could easily go for something better in a build like neutral balance shafts.

And careful shopping using the vendors advertised here is a bit retarded anyway. Sure they have better deals on some of the parts, but not all. As I said several posts ago, you have one of the vendors charging over $100 more then a larger parts dealer for the same stainless valves. Thats why I linked to Summit. They are a bigger distributor that doesnt have to jack their prices as high to still make a profit, not because they are a "performance" part supplier.

08baltls

iTrader: (3)

You're right, stresses are different, but a 383 is far from a mild build I can assure you that. Especially when you get into the block itself. And its not an easy build either when building it from a stock 350 block.

I get why you're not gonna want them cursing your name and why you say that more expensive parts are going to be better. Being a vendor of any kind, which Im assuming from your sig, and giving information that may or may not have ill effects would hurt your reputation. But I on the other hand dont have that problem. Im just giving out the information that was given to me by others who have built these engines before and whom I trust to be giving good information. But regardless that doesnt mean that my advice is bad. Its just as good as yours if not better because its not raping the guy on money for a part thats redundant.

Im glad that you can link some information that was posted on the net. I'll admit that I didnt read it, because honestly, it has no meaning to me. I'm just passing along information that was given to me and that I've seen first hand. While 450whp on a hypereutectic piston is a low amount of horsepower for a motor like that, I went with them because I have personally seem them holding up in similar engines with far more horsepower then what I was gonna be running and I knew they would hold to my mild horsepower figures.

EDIT:
Since we are going to throw in posts from the net as valid reference material supporting our claims, heres one I found.

http://www.turbovmax.com/PDF/Birth%2...%20Fighter.pdf

once you read through that go down to the bottom and read the chart. The stock pistons and rods held up to 283hp just fine, and after 283 when all 4 rods failed at the same time, the pistons and other parts were still in good shape. It seems that the major weak link that would need to be addressed in a build such as this would simply be the sh*t stock rods. In the ranges we are talking about for power here, really nothing else needs to be changed. At least on the lower end.

soundjunky

iTrader: (4)

450hp / 8 pistons = 56.2hp per hole

300hp / 4 pistons = 75hp per hole

... and that's assuming the same stroke, the same bore, and the same ringland depth.

yes most assuredly the stresses are different.

but to again relate your 383 to this eco (but write it a different way);

450hp/6.7624L = 158hp/2.2L

OR

300hp/2.2L = 922hp/6.7624L

I know what you're getting at, but really you can't say that because something jives fine on one build, that it will on another...

and I'm not a vendor persay;
I'm just an enthusiast like yourself who offers an otherwise unavailable service to locals...
while wasting a little too much time on forums like this ~ spewing out advice, or plain old bs'ing...

soundjunky

iTrader: (4)

HA-HA!!

That's the exact same article I linked for you! ~ except that PDF is better than the JPEG version I have saved to my computer.

SAVED!!

thanks!

08baltls

iTrader: (3)

No problem, but from that PDF thing I think its fairly easy to say that stock pistons will hold up just fine to the kind of horsepower that we are talking about here. In fact it looks like the whole motor holds up just fine with the exception of the rods. lol

soundjunky

iTrader: (4)

did you miss that they changed the pistons?

the GM build book has the first upgrade for the L61 was pistons...

then there's this;
Stage 3 Questions & Answers

Keep in mind that the LSJ piston is an upgrade from the L61 piston.

Maven

iTrader: (1)

Yeah my logic, but I never suggested bolting on a turbo and goin for 300hp with no internal modifications. I said 250hp, which imo is the upper limit of power output on a stock internal L61.

Youre 100% right, you COULD swap rods and keep stock pistons for 250hp, but like I mentioned, no need to even swap rods for 250hp though. Id really love to hear how NBS are a better investment in a forced induction 350hp ECO than forged pistons are.

I never mentioned careful shopping using the vendors on this site. Normal everyday prices are how I came up with my price that I mentioned, careful shopping to lower pricing would mean using larger non traditional GM or sport compact suppliers or purchasing new items second hand from individuals. I still would be interested to know what goes into your $8000 350hp engine if you feel that the vendors I used for pricing are overpriced, what accounts for the more than 1/3 increase in price between our proposed builds?????

383 is far from mild? in what way? 383 is the most tried and true SBC build combination out there. What in the block is isnt mild or easy? you need a .030" overbore and a 3 3/4" stroke, **** you can get brand new stroker cranks for under $200 for a 350 , 450hp from a 383 is done with stock style powdered rods, any crank you want, small valve Vortec heads, maybe some Fast Burns, or an even a mild 2.02/1.60 head, a dual plane intake, a fully streetable and relatively smooth idling cam (maybe a 240 duration at most, low .500s lift) and the usual quality header and carb.


How are forged pistons "redundant" in an engine being built to safely handle 350hp?

08baltls

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, they did replace pistons. But yall obviously need to read more thoroughly and not just look for things that go along with what your trying to prove. They said that at 283 hp when the rods failed, that everything else was fine. That includes the pistons! They were going for 800hp and knew that the pistons would come into play later on so while the motor was opened up they went ahead and replaced them. At the point of failure, right under 300hp, the pistons were still fine. Meaning that stock pistons are fine for 300 hp. Maybe they wont hold to 350hp but thats not what we are talking about here. Were only talking about 250-300hp. At those ranges the pistons are fine. No need to upgrade to forged unless you plan on going over those numbers.

As for the pistons Im proposing being a better investment as opposed to forged pistons are simple.

First, you dont need forged pistons. Weve already established that. That was even in a post that was meant to disprove what I've been saying. But again, yall overlooked that fact.

Now second, we are only talking 250-300hp, not 350. Go back and reread the original posts, he never mentioned going to 350hp. So where that number is coming from I dont know.

Third, the extra $400 youre gonna save by going with the cheaper pistons can be spent on neutral balance shafts instead. Those are going to be a good idea because the turbo is gonna cause the engine to spin up faster and harder. Having standard balance shafts could pose more of a problem with a turbo on an L61 then having non-forged pistons.

So in just three points, I can see why the cheaper pistons are a better investment for a 250-300hp build.

(And I underlined and bolded the important parts that I think yall need to get before you keep on trying to tear my argument apart. Its kinda sad that a linked post trying to do that also proved my point even easier then yalls points)

soundjunky

iTrader: (4)

I need to point out that you are essentially doing "do as I say, and not as I do!"??



at that point you should stop, and look at the info that I not only linked, but also quoted for the LSJ-GMS3 kit;

Please keep in mind that when looking at the L61 and LSJ shortblock the LSJ has upgraded;

• rods
• wrist pins
• pistons

yet even the upgraded LSJ slug is the weak point past 310bhp ~ but here we're talking about 300-350whp;
depending on the source, you're looking at roughly 10 to 20 percent power loss when going from bhp to whp;
so 300-350whp is aprox 330 to 400+ bhp... well beyond the point at which GMPD states that the upper ring land will break.

are you making the mistake of interchanging whp & bhp numbers?

08baltls

iTrader: (3)

Jesus man!! We are not talking about the LSJ motor. We are talking about the 2.2L motor. The same one tested in the link you and I both posted!! The LSJ motor is gonna be different. Thats common sense. I have read and read and read. Im comprehending what Im reading. And that is that THE STOCK PISTONS ARE FINE!!!!!!! SOB!!

I have never once said that forged pistons have no use. All Im saying is that forged pistons arent needed in this situation that the OP is talking about. Forged pistons are great in engines and circumstances that REQUIRE forged pistons, but this is not one of those cases.

In the configuration tested, the 2.2L motor, the weak link below 300 hp is the rods. Nothing else. If you cant look at the figures and tests that we both linked and see that then I dont know where else to go, because you just wont understand. Thats about as definitive as it gets, yet you still dont see it.

soundjunky

iTrader: (4)

^^the OP was wanting to use what can be dumbed down to call an LSJ top end - which is why this is LSJ comparison is applicable...

in the link you gave it cited the first spot that an L61 goes is the rods - that was at the 283bhp mark;
they didn't get high enough to show the pitsons as being a potential weak point before they were upgraded;
in the link I gave in addition to yours, it cited that the piston (a better one at that) was unreliable above 310bhp.

If you don't see it... I don't know how else to politely get it across...

I hope the OP got it - because that's all that really matters.

you good?

08baltls

iTrader: (3)

And in the link I posted even though it didnt go over 283hp before they replaced the pistons, it showed that they were good to that point. Whether they would have failed at 284hp, though unlikely, is not known. But until 283hp the stock pistons are fine.

It sounds like alot of people here are just trying to justify the money that they have spent or want to spend. Its like whatever someone has, is the best. Whether it is or not is a moot point when they argue it, just whatever they spent money on is automatically the best. If we are strictly going off the scientific method and using what has been proven, then I am correct in saying that the stock pistons are fine up to 283hp and realistically putting anything else in is just a redundant safety measure. If you or anyone else wants to use forged pistons and spend the money on them, thats fine. Go for it. But as for me and what I've seen, I dont need them and wont be using them. So, to each his own.

Mr.N00bLaR

iTrader: (7)

That is absolutely not what they are saying. All they are saying is that particular time with that setup that was where it failed, not that everyone's 2.2 l61 can handle that at all or for any period of time.

EDIT: I didn't read your link but I assume its the build book or somewhere else that oulines the nitrous test done by GM.

EDIT: Just looked at the link you posted. I guess I can see where you are coming from but that doesn't make it a good idea to put that kind of stress on the stock parts and drive it around daily.

Maven

iTrader: (1)

Actually it is what the OP is asking about.

No, we havent established that.....firstly the OP was asking about 350+hp, and secondly there is no information about the durability of those cast pistons you propose are adequate. If you were to actually look at the Build book youd see that right on page 7 GM tells you to install forged pistons for 2.2L builds in excess of 250hp.

Its coming from the original post

NBS arent needed at a given HP level, they dont know much of anything about hp, all they know is rpm. and unless youre regularly running at 7500rpm or higher you dont need neutral shafts or a delete kit. And that doesnt mean you have your rev limiter set to 7500, thats youre engine is actually being used and making power at or past 7500. Theres ZERO reason to rev an L61 past 7000.

soundjunky

iTrader: (4)

I agree.

the thing here is that many people on this forum do not have another car, and cannot afford the financial hit incurred for something breaking in the shortblock, then having ot repair, ore replace...

If a piston was to let go in any fashion, very quickly the head and sleeves will be damaged;
at that point then the (theoretical) person would have to absorb the cost incurred of the service replacement pistons which are now useless, as well as the costs of replacement parts, and re-machinging - assuming the head can be re-used, and the block is still good.

and I know someone first hand who had a piston break for just this reason - only because of his luck, did he find this out before things got bad...

to 283bhp - I would agree with you which is why in threads like this I try to encourage the person in question to shoot for a more realistic 250bhp mark...

But we're not talking 283bhp;
Nor are we talking 300bhp;
The op is shooting for 300-350whp...

you good?

08baltls

iTrader: (3)

Jesus Christ. Im done arguing with this group of children here. Obviously, in the face of facts, none of you can concede that the stock pistons are fine up to at least 283 hp. This is typical of any forum so I have no idea why I thought that here would be any different, but f*ck... You guys really need to wrench on some more motors before you start spouting off the sh*t that read as being golden. Yall are about as bad as Christians saying that their perogative is right and everyone else is wrong. So what ever. Im out.

OP do some research for yourself and make your own decisions. Dont just do what ever these people tell you to do because its what they have done cause all you'll do is waste money.