SCd 2.4L Dyno Results
09-01-2014, 07:52 PM
#1
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Put my car on a Dynojet recently with a couple friends.
Mods: M62 blower, 2.8" pulley, 42# inj, 3" ZZP intake, ZZP mid length header 1.75" pipes, 2.5" ZZP catted downpipe, 2.5" ZZP cat back, OTTP stg 1 heat exchanger, Opt B tank, AIS meth kit, 12gph nozzle before blower.
11* of timing.
249 whp
231 wtq
Mods: M62 blower, 2.8" pulley, 42# inj, 3" ZZP intake, ZZP mid length header 1.75" pipes, 2.5" ZZP catted downpipe, 2.5" ZZP cat back, OTTP stg 1 heat exchanger, Opt B tank, AIS meth kit, 12gph nozzle before blower.
11* of timing.
249 whp
231 wtq
09-01-2014, 09:05 PM
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My IATs climb to about 113℉ then around 5500 rpm start to go down lol. This setup works pretty flawless. 0 knock no matter what. Unfortunately we've been unable to add timing as it sits. If I add even 2* of timing it knocks up to 3*. 11-12 is my cars happy spot as it sits.
09-01-2014, 09:25 PM
#7
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91 ocatane. No E85 close enough to make it justified for a daily driver. If I can work out the kinks on getting a barrel and using that system, then perhaps one day.
09-01-2014, 09:41 PM
#8
I suppose that's decent for 91 octane, whats your elevation? How much boost does the 2.8 pulley make? Have you tried dynoing without the meth? Last supercharged car I had with 50/50 boost juice was drowning with a 6gph nozzle, wound up making more power without the meth on 93 octane. You could probably pick up 10 ponies or so doing the LNF exhaust cam like I just did, theres two still for sale that I know of, one from robk and one from mongo. It's .406 lift vs .395 and changes the LSA from 130 to 127.5, should help vent the exhaust side a bit better compared to the stock LE5 exhaust cam which is pretty small.
09-02-2014, 12:41 AM
#9
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I daily at 2500-2700 ft and it makes around 11 psi up here. I Dynod in LA and I'm unsure of the elevation there but I made 12.35psi on the dyno. At sea level I can get to damn near 14psi or so. I've never ran the car on this pulley without meth injection, so no dyno results from that.
As for the LNF exhaust cam, is it litterally a direct swap?
As for the LNF exhaust cam, is it litterally a direct swap?
09-02-2014, 12:56 AM
#10
You could probably pick up 10 ponies or so doing the LNF exhaust cam like I just did, theres two still for sale that I know of, one from robk and one from mongo. It's .406 lift vs .395 and changes the LSA from 130 to 127.5, should help vent the exhaust side a bit better compared to the stock LE5 exhaust cam which is pretty small.
09-02-2014, 12:58 AM
#11
I daily at 2500-2700 ft and it makes around 11 psi up here. I Dynod in LA and I'm unsure of the elevation there but I made 12.35psi on the dyno. At sea level I can get to damn near 14psi or so. I've never ran the car on this pulley without meth injection, so no dyno results from that.
As for the LNF exhaust cam, is it litterally a direct swap?
As for the LNF exhaust cam, is it litterally a direct swap?
09-02-2014, 01:00 AM
#12
It applies to any application, since the LE5's are VVT car's the VVT can be manipulated to move the LSA and overlap either way to suit your application, I didnt have to touch it on mine because im NA still, dropping the LSA from 130 to 127.5 helps my top end by increasing overlap, the biggest advantage for you guys would be the increase in lift that the LNF exhaust cam provides.
09-02-2014, 01:12 AM
#13
It applies to any application, since the LE5's are VVT car's the VVT can be manipulated to move the LSA and overlap either way to suit your application, I didnt have to touch it on mine because im NA still, dropping the LSA from 130 to 127.5 helps my top end by increasing overlap, the biggest advantage for you guys would be the increase in lift that the LNF exhaust cam provides.
Does valve spring needs to be change? (Read the lower part)
09-02-2014, 01:17 AM
#14
There is a very minimal change in exhaust note, if your familiar with the way your idle is now, then you will probably notice the slight change at the tail pipe, but its very minimal. Acceleration is much better because the cam helps the car breath better for sure, I saw a 3-4% increase in fuel requirements from about 3500hz+ on my MAF table. The VVT cams are naturally spaced very far apart for the VVT to have plenty of room to move around, it isn't until you get to either ridiculous duration's or very low LSA's that you hear that lope. You can read about my whole debacle with improperly made VVT cams and how that duration and overlap can effect your idle compression.
09-02-2014, 12:46 PM
#19
Yeh, see this is why I didnt like the methanol when I had it on my JRSC integra, too many variables with chemical injection that are difficult to control. I had better results without the meth kit then I did with it, like I said I think 12gph is wayyyy too much. You have to remember that unless you are running 100% methanol, you are introducing alot of water into the engine, and water does nothing to make power. Yes it helps cool and stabilize combustion but when you drown the motor with water vapor it hurts more then it helps. I think he would actually see better results with anywhere from a 3-6gph nozzle and running 70/30 meth/water. You want to use the methanol as an octane booster more then a cooling agent, if your IAT2's are suffering I would invest more into the intercooling system then just drowning the car with water.
09-02-2014, 01:15 PM
#20
Yeh, see this is why I didnt like the methanol when I had it on my JRSC integra, too many variables with chemical injection that are difficult to control. I had better results without the meth kit then I did with it, like I said I think 12gph is wayyyy too much. You have to remember that unless you are running 100% methanol, you are introducing alot of water into the engine, and water does nothing to make power. Yes it helps cool and stabilize combustion but when you drown the motor with water vapor it hurts more then it helps. I think he would actually see better results with anywhere from a 3-6gph nozzle and running 70/30 meth/water. You want to use the methanol as an octane booster more then a cooling agent, if your IAT2's are suffering I would invest more into the intercooling system then just drowning the car with water.
09-02-2014, 01:26 PM
#21
Absolutely, and I think one of the biggest problems with regards to meth is that people always wind up spraying it before the blower, and assume that its helping them. Blowers arent turbo's, you cannot treat them the same way. I found out the hard way that all I was doing spraying pre-blower was displacing air for water inside the blower and actually reducing the amount of CFM the blower sent into the engine. A good tuner I know from the carolina's explained to me in detail about the common mistakes made with methanol and you would be surprised just how many people do it wrong. I think one of the biggest misconceptions we had was that it actually cools off IAT's that much, when in reality its not as efficient as you think. What we were actually measuring was condensation from the water and methanol on the IAT sensor probe, not the actual air temp. Meth injection is best used as a stabilizer to combustion and an octane additive, you get better results treating it that way then as an agent to cool IAT's alone.
09-02-2014, 06:17 PM
#22
Stock LSJ Long block - 2.0
2.7 Pulley / lightly ported m62
Jbp Header / 2.5" catless dp / 2.5 catback
Ported Intake Manifold
7gph 50/50 water/meth
zzp 3" intake
12 AFR / 24* advance up top
vs
OPs car (mods in original post)
(SAME DYNO; SAME TUNER)
max values
Conditions
----------
The OPs car is a 2.4 Liter 10.5:1 compression engine
The standard nozzle for a 50/50 mixture on a 2.7 m62 lsj setup is 7gph. The standard nozzle for a lsj on a 2.8 lsj is 5gph.
The LSJ is 9.5:1
The 2.4 is dealing with greater displacement over all and a higher compression ratio. 12gph is nothing at all; especially when spraying pre-blower.
As for the talk about losing efficiency when spraying water and methanol into a supercharger? On the contrary; by spraying pre blower you close the tolerances between the case and the rotor pack improving adiabatic efficiency and over all CFM. This is part of the reason psi increases in correlation with decreasing iats providing cooler, denser air.
Please read this article
Water Alcohol Methanol Ethanol Injection Systems - Articles - Tech Articles - 116+ Octane With Water Injection!
2.7 Pulley / lightly ported m62
Jbp Header / 2.5" catless dp / 2.5 catback
Ported Intake Manifold
7gph 50/50 water/meth
zzp 3" intake
12 AFR / 24* advance up top
vs
OPs car (mods in original post)
(SAME DYNO; SAME TUNER)
max values
Conditions
----------
The OPs car is a 2.4 Liter 10.5:1 compression engine
The standard nozzle for a 50/50 mixture on a 2.7 m62 lsj setup is 7gph. The standard nozzle for a lsj on a 2.8 lsj is 5gph.
The LSJ is 9.5:1
The 2.4 is dealing with greater displacement over all and a higher compression ratio. 12gph is nothing at all; especially when spraying pre-blower.
As for the talk about losing efficiency when spraying water and methanol into a supercharger? On the contrary; by spraying pre blower you close the tolerances between the case and the rotor pack improving adiabatic efficiency and over all CFM. This is part of the reason psi increases in correlation with decreasing iats providing cooler, denser air.
Please read this article
Water Alcohol Methanol Ethanol Injection Systems - Articles - Tech Articles - 116+ Octane With Water Injection!
09-02-2014, 07:49 PM
#23
Anything that AIS publishes is mostly psuedoscience to sell their kits, ive had my dealings with them in the past and their kits are junk. I had to file a chargeback on my credit card to get a refund after 2 months of running one of their trunk mount kits that not only leaked but the switch failed and nearly nuked my motor.
There is no "standard" nozzle for any car, so saying that 5gph is the "standard" for LSJ's is also more pseudoscience, the nozzle size merely dictates how much methanol vs how much gasoline you are going to run. As for the whole "spraying pre blower closes tolerances" argument, thats also completely false information, in fact on the pre-5th gen blowers it would actually loosen tolerances by stripping the teflon coating off the rotors completely. How do I know this? Because Ive done it on 2 separate blowers already in a matter of 6 months of hard methanol injection use preblower. Stripped the coating off until the rotors were squeaky clean. Now the newer coatings might not be as susceptible to this but that doesnt change the fact that it doesnt "close the tolerances". lol The water does not sit at the edge of the blade where it meets the case, it is a vapor, it fills the entire case along with the air that is being blown into the motor. This is all dyno proven science here, not some blog article from a half assed water injection company out of arizona. The higher you get in the GPH pre blower, the harder it is for the blower to turn and the more air you displace, by your logic, i could take my garden hose and spray it into my throttle body and it would have no effect at all. 12gph is 909cc's, thats a massive amount of fluid to be spraying into your supercharger.
There is no "standard" nozzle for any car, so saying that 5gph is the "standard" for LSJ's is also more pseudoscience, the nozzle size merely dictates how much methanol vs how much gasoline you are going to run. As for the whole "spraying pre blower closes tolerances" argument, thats also completely false information, in fact on the pre-5th gen blowers it would actually loosen tolerances by stripping the teflon coating off the rotors completely. How do I know this? Because Ive done it on 2 separate blowers already in a matter of 6 months of hard methanol injection use preblower. Stripped the coating off until the rotors were squeaky clean. Now the newer coatings might not be as susceptible to this but that doesnt change the fact that it doesnt "close the tolerances". lol The water does not sit at the edge of the blade where it meets the case, it is a vapor, it fills the entire case along with the air that is being blown into the motor. This is all dyno proven science here, not some blog article from a half assed water injection company out of arizona. The higher you get in the GPH pre blower, the harder it is for the blower to turn and the more air you displace, by your logic, i could take my garden hose and spray it into my throttle body and it would have no effect at all. 12gph is 909cc's, thats a massive amount of fluid to be spraying into your supercharger.
09-02-2014, 08:00 PM
#25
Anything that AIS publishes is mostly psuedoscience to sell their kits, ive had my dealings with them in the past and their kits are junk. I had to file a chargeback on my credit card to get a refund after 2 months of running one of their trunk mount kits that not only leaked but the switch failed and nearly nuked my motor.
There is no "standard" nozzle for any car, so saying that 5gph is the "standard" for LSJ's is also more pseudoscience, the nozzle size merely dictates how much methanol vs how much gasoline you are going to run. As for the whole "spraying pre blower closes tolerances" argument, thats also completely false information, in fact on the pre-5th gen blowers it would actually loosen tolerances by stripping the teflon coating off the rotors completely. How do I know this? Because Ive done it on 2 separate blowers already in a matter of 6 months of hard methanol injection use preblower. Stripped the coating off until the rotors were squeaky clean. Now the newer coatings might not be as susceptible to this but that doesnt change the fact that it doesnt "close the tolerances". lol The water does not sit at the edge of the blade where it meets the case, it is a vapor, it fills the entire case along with the air that is being blown into the motor. This is all dyno proven science here, not some blog article from a half assed water injection company out of arizona. The higher you get in the GPH pre blower, the harder it is for the blower to turn and the more air you displace, by your logic, i could take my garden hose and spray it into my throttle body and it would have no effect at all. 12gph is 909cc's, thats a massive amount of fluid to be spraying into your supercharger.
There is no "standard" nozzle for any car, so saying that 5gph is the "standard" for LSJ's is also more pseudoscience, the nozzle size merely dictates how much methanol vs how much gasoline you are going to run. As for the whole "spraying pre blower closes tolerances" argument, thats also completely false information, in fact on the pre-5th gen blowers it would actually loosen tolerances by stripping the teflon coating off the rotors completely. How do I know this? Because Ive done it on 2 separate blowers already in a matter of 6 months of hard methanol injection use preblower. Stripped the coating off until the rotors were squeaky clean. Now the newer coatings might not be as susceptible to this but that doesnt change the fact that it doesnt "close the tolerances". lol The water does not sit at the edge of the blade where it meets the case, it is a vapor, it fills the entire case along with the air that is being blown into the motor. This is all dyno proven science here, not some blog article from a half assed water injection company out of arizona. The higher you get in the GPH pre blower, the harder it is for the blower to turn and the more air you displace, by your logic, i could take my garden hose and spray it into my throttle body and it would have no effect at all. 12gph is 909cc's, thats a massive amount of fluid to be spraying into your supercharger.
explain plz :-)
Every search says ur so full of **** ur eyes r brown!!!!