It may not be a Cobalt, but audio is audio right?

I'd like to get your ideas/suggestions/help for my soon to be new system in my '69 Chevy C/10. Come warmer weather I'm gonna finally get rid of my 2 Radio Shack "Bass Reflex" (read:junk) speakers and upgrade. Also I'm going to remove the in cab fuel tank and install a fuel cell under the bed. Then I will install seats out of an 02ish Silverado including the center folding seat/console. So room won't neccessarily be an issue. I want to do speakers (5.25") in kick panel enclosures and 6x9s behind the seats, maybe a sub, not sure yet.

I already have a Panasonic CQ-DF802U "Ghost" touch screen deck in the glovebox currently. I also bought the following off a friend that moved:
Two Pioneer Premier decks one is a DEH-P680MP, the other a DEH-P300 (which looks quite old).
Amps- an Orion SC250.1T and a Jensen Power JPA260, I assume both of these are older by the looks of it.
I'm not opposed to replacing the Panasonic deck with one of the Premiers if either is better. Nor am I opposed to selling it all (except the Panasonic) for a few bucks and putting it towards better stuff.

I'm perfectly capabale of doing an install, I just never have, I'm a GM Tech turned GM parts guy so I've got the knowledge. I have installed decks and speakers before but never amps nor a really good full system. So I'm kinda lost.

I do plan on spending part of my taxes on this so the funds shouldn't be too big of a concern. I want good speakers, no cheapo 29.95 specials, I figure I may as well do it up right. I prefer sound quality over quantity but it gets pretty darn loud in this truck goin down the road so keep that in mind. My music of choice is hard rock/metal with the occasional soft stuff (doo wop, acapella, soft rock, etc.) mixed in for good measure.

So, questions are-
What brand/type of speakers do you recommend and where should I buy them?
Should I custom build box(es) for behind the seat, and furthermore, 1 box to house everything or several smaller boxes?
If I do use the amps how/where should I mount them?
If I do use the amps that'll open up another whole can of worms I know nothing about.
I'm sure I'll have more as it progresses.
Any other help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

for speakers i highly recommend Infinity Kappas. They can get a little pricey depending on the model but are well worth it. Amazon is always a good place to find cheaper prices on electronics IMO. If you have the know how then custom boxes are the way to go. And definitely go with separate boxes. With mounting the amps its all really a matter of space to put them. The further away from the speakers the better, within reason of course, because it would cut down on any interference you may get. HTH. I'm pretty good with audio wiring so if you have any questions feel free to PM me.

 

i know i've seen them before but get some pics of the truck up. if i get an idea of how much space u have to work with and what u have going on speaker wise i can make some suggestions from there

 

lol how did i know you'd be one of the first to post?

 

lol i was the 2nd... when are us el paso/cruces balts gonna meet up and go to chicos???

 

I'll post up some pics tonight when I get home, it is a small cab. I don't really know how much room I'll end up with after removing the tank, it should clear up quite a bit of space seeing as how it's 18 gallons worth of tank. The kick panels I'm gonna get are premade and setup for either just a 5.25" speaker or 5.25" plus a tweeter.

Edit: You can Google image search for "69 c10 interior" or "69 c/10 interior", or anything form 67-72 for that matter, if you want to see pictures now, I don't have any pics on my work computer.

 

imo i think kappas are great for sucking ass. I have kappas and after less the a year one quit working sent it in got a new one and then right after a year the other one quit. so at this point i was just gonna get a new brand i bought a new set but before i even put them in the other one quit working. junk pure junk. the new set i have in my car i have never had a prblem with and they have been in there for over 3 years

 

Pics-
Here's a good shot of the depth I'll have once the tank is out. It should be safe to assume the base of the seat will be no further back then the front of the tank currently sits. (make sense?)


Another shot from the other side


This pic shows the entire floor, you can kinda make out the deck in the glove box. Also shows the Second Skin.


If you want different angles I'll have to take some, I don't have any more that show much other then the dash and column (installed a new column and took several pics of it). Pretty nice set of speakers I got there too, huh? I know you're probably jealous, please try contain your envy though.

So anywho, whatcha thinkin' now?

 

bump

 

I have been doing automotive electronics for about 10 years now. I am an MECP Master installer, I know a few things. You need a more concise path. Just dropping in a set of speakers where they fit isn't exactly the way to do things. It can make a $500 component sound like it came from a flea market. Being that it's an older vehicle, cab quitness isn't exactly a thing it does well.

An amplifier is a must on your component speakers. In all honesty a sub isn't a necessity in a cab that small when it comes to sound quality. A couple of well powered, well placed mid bass speakers would probably do the trick for the broad spectrum of all music.

You are definitely on track with the Premier 680. Not the greatest sounding, but pretty rock solid until the laser/pre-amp stage goes bad. May I suggest the Clarion DRZ9255 if price isn't really an issue. Bear in mind the higher the output signal, the cleaner your sound will be period. A deck that does 75Wx4 for power, but only has 2V outputs will pale in comparison when hooked up to an amp over one that has just 45Wx4 with 6V outputs. Also, be a man and take the radio out of the glove box and put it where it belongs front and center in the dash. DO NOT use the factory 4x10 hole cut into the top of the dash for a speaker. In fact, seal that hole with something.

Interior deadening can be remedied in a much better way by products from Dynamat. Lay down some Extreme, followed by some Dynapad. Makes even the loudest of big blocks seem faint. This will also help to keep sound in the car, instead of relying on the thin sheet metal. Do the roof, outer door skins, behind the door panels, floor, double on the firewall, behind the seats. Get it in every square inch you can. The change is dramatic and will reduce the amount of amplifier power needed, which turns to less energy used, which creates less heat, which creates longer lasting parts (wires, amplifiers, speakers, alternator, battery).

Pioneer (don't knock it until you hear it), JL Audio, Boston, and of course companies like Focal make some kick ass components. Pioneer finally brought all their European stuff over a few years ago. Even the Infinity Reference are pretty strong sounding. Not too harsh. Stay away from titanium tweeters, instead stick with silk or textiles. Metals tend to create harsh, tinny highs that have you reaching for the treble knob after a 20 minute trip. They will also make a good, balanced song sound off key and overbearing in the higher notes.

If you can squeeze an 8" mid-bass in the very front, lower corner of each door, then minimally a 6" woofer and 1" or so tweeter in each kick panel you will be golden. Two 6" woofers or a 6" and 4" would be ideal. But you may not have enough room in each. Make sure you allow some room behind all the woofers to breathe a little, but not too much. Make sure the front waves and rear waves are completely sealed for each other or again, like I said earlier, your $500 component will sound like it came from a flea market. The manufacturer should be able to provide you with phase angles and where the speakers play best off axis to ensure you aim the speakers properly. If not you'll just have to go by ear testing because that kind of equipment is not cheap to come by.

Amplifier power is simple. There are a few easy rules to follow.
1. Peak power means NOTHING. Look for the RMS rating and make sure it is measured at 14.4V, not 24V or some obscure number. A 12.5V rating is a good one because that means at higher voltage it will crank.
2. Steady state regulated power amps like the JL Audio RIPS or the Kicker RS amps are worth the price. They provide the exact same power at 11V that they can at 14V. Transient voltage won't affect your sound at all.
3. Damping factor. This is the KEY ingredient to a good amp. The higher the damping factor for a given amp, the better over all it's going to sound. This very measurment alone can make your flea market speakers sound like $500 components...or vice versa. Damping above 150-200 is a DAMN GOOD amp. If you take some garbage $150 Sony amp that is 500W RMS at 2ohm with a damping of say 40 at that impedance, vs a $300 JL amp that is 250W RMS at 2ohm with a damping of 250 at that impedance, that JL amp will sound cleaner AND louder than that Sony amp. Damping factor is the key measurement to motor control in the loud speaker. The faster the amp can change polarity on it's rails, the better your speakers sound and the less energy wasted into heat, which creates distortion.
4. Impedance. Sure, your amp can run at 1/2 ohm. Will it sound good there? Hell no. This is why home audio runs upwards of 8ohm. The higher the impedance, again, the less heat, the less distortion. If you can get a super powerful amp to run at 8ohm and still fully power the speakers you are using, you will have great sound. 4ohm is the minimum. Start running high end speakers into lower impedances and again, flea market sound.

I wouldn't do anything behind the seats unless you REALLY want a sub. Some regular old 6x9s are going to end up being wasted energy that the only way you know they're there is from some extra vibrations. And sell the Panasonic deck. There is very little sound quality to be had with that radio, that was one thing Panasonic never focused on. Displays, however, are something they were good it. I can tell it has you slightly mezmerized lol.

Now there are many more advanced things like acoustic resonance of the vehicle, designing proper zobel/notch/high pass/low pass/what have you filters. But that's stuff that you probably won't need to dip in to unless you want to go to competition level. Most manufacturers will supply you with a crossover for your speakers. They are pretty good at making them work properly. I would suggest a 6 channel (not kidding) or even two four channel amps. 2 channels drive your 8" mid bass drivers, 4 channels to run your 6"/4" mid ranges, and two for the tweeters. This way you ensure 4-ohm, full, clean power and you have the ability to bandpass your mid-range speakers to keep from wasting energy and adding distortion.

This may be more info than you need, but it sure is something I am passionate about. Let me know if you need more help with all this.

-Chris
Motivated Inc.

 

Holy crap man, thanks. lol

I didn't plan on using a sub just because I figured I didn't need one, so I'm with ya there.

I plan on spending some cash, but the price on that Clarion is rediculous. And further more I will not cut up the interior of this truck, specifically the dash, just a personal preference. The speaker up in the dash actually is still functional as it's hooked up to the factory AM radio thats in it's proper place. I'm planning on taking the cardboard glovebox out and building a more proper box that will house the deck out of metal.

If you look at the 3rd pic above you can see Second Skin deadener on the floors. Painted the floors with POR-15 (awesome stuff btw), then a layer of Damplifier Pro topped by a layer of Heat Wave Pro. I will hopefully get all the firewall done up along with the back of the cab after the tank is removed. Can't really do the roof as there is no headliner, just a steel roof, and that would look weird, someday I'll do a full headliner and deadener. As for the doors, that'll be a someday thing too as the only hole through to the door is just big enough to get your arm through, and I know theres probably some rust in there that needs cleaned first.

That there is just a lot of stuff to wrap my head around lol

I was wondering how good (bad) speakers would sound having to push through a seat. As for the Panasonic, the only reason I want to keep it is I've got plenty of other vehicles that I can put it in, mainly my '93 K3500 beater that is running a Rampage deck. I don't care about sound quality in that truck but it would be nice to have a decent deck. lol

Again, more stuff to mull over.

Thanks a ton, definitely gives me some ideas and more of a path to follow.

 

The roof is a MUST in a vehicle like that, ESPECIALLY without a head liner. You will get a lot of echo and reverberations. Not to mention every note will have a hollow sound to it. I would at least cover it with some dynaplate or even spray glue some thick carpeting up there. The roof and windows make a world of difference because that is where a lot of sound gets refracted. In fact about 20% of the soundtrack you hear are refracted waves bouncing back from a speaker. Obviously you would like to keep the windows lol.

 

Ya, I prefer to be able to see out the windows, I find it works better that way lol.

This truck is a weekend toy and my show truck, not much to look at compared to some but still fun to take to car shows for the experience. With that in mind I really don't want to put deadener on the roof, I understand what you're saying though, someday I will, just not now, I'm more concerned with the copious amounts of noise and heat coming through the floors and firewall then the sound bouncing around in the cab.

I don't want nor do I need a top dollar, amazing, mind blowing system at this point, although that Clarion seems like an amazing setup. Would it be nice to go all out like that? Sure, but I'd be happy with a decent sounding and decent quality setup at this point. I can always expand down the road after I get the rest of the truck to my likings, which will be a long while. I can't see spending a couple grand on a system now when that could go much further towards other stuff, like a new brake setup (which is much needed), or a new transmission, and so on. Not to mention I've got a small list of parts I want to put on it this summer besides the stereo stuff including a fuel cell which will be quite a project.

Now, if you think that the Pioneer 680 I have is sufficient then I'll use it. That is where it starts turning clear as mud to me. Amps, component speakers, connecting them all together, thats all new territory to me. Furthermore, all that technical jargon you blew my mind with a few posts up? Just made the mud a little thicker lol.

So, let me throw out a brand, say JL Audio or Pioneer, what would you suggest? I.e., speakers "x" and amp "y", that would really clear things up for me, seeing what I should be looking for and what works. You obviously know what you're talking about so I'll keep on listening with an open mind towards it all.

Thank you very much.

 

The JL audio C5s and ZRs would be a great component, but a little pricey. Instead look into the Pioneer PRS speakers. These had RAVE reviews when they came out and I actually got to listen to them in a private session at Caesar's Palace at CES 2007. They are modeled after Pioneer's European stuff (let's face it, the European's have a better knack for refinement than us), but priced and built to suit the American person. A set can be had new usually for about $500, but search hard enough and you can find them for closer to $300. Same with the JL C5 set. As far as amps go, just a simple 4-channel to bi-amp your components with for pure, clean sound. I would still try to build a healthy set of mid-bass speakers in somewhere. Again with JL, the 300/4v2 has incredible damping along with the RIPS (Regulated Intelligent Power Supply) that gives the amp optimum, steady state output at virtually any impedance and voltage. Differences between 11V and 14V at max output are as little as 5W of power. Comes with a very low total distortion, even at full tilt. That amp can be had for around $300 usually, but go with an authorized dealer that sells them shelf stock and you can be certain the amp was properly tested and you will literally play it for the next 10 years solid. This amp has a rollback circuit so when you are really cranking on it and making some heat, it will slightly decrease power in increments to cut back distortion and keep from thermal overload. You can't even tell this is happening. Once the amp reaches a cool level, it will begin to bring itself back to full power. The head unit you have is fine, but be aware that Pioneer is known for noise in the low level stage after several years of use and poor laser pick up. Some of them tend to not play a CD with even a single scratch on it.

 

Alrighty then, while that is still a little too rich for my blood it tells me what to look for, thanks.

 

Stick with the Infinity Reference components. Plenty of midrage/low end without the harsh highs. Can be had for around $150. I still wouldn't skimp on the amp though :-)

 

69 what exactly are you looking for mind i ask? i got a few good ideas but its all going to be dependant on what your looking for. Try giving me good examples of what youve "herd" or what not that you want to have

 

Well, I suppose I haven't really heard any good setups, the friend I bought the amps from was more concerned with big bass (in a '93 Caravan) and I'm not, also was always buying and selling cheap gear. I had another friend who spent $5,000 (custom install) on a 2500 watt system a few years ago (5-6?) that sounded amazing but it better for that rediculous price.

So somewhere between cheap loud bass and rediculously over priced setups. That clears it up don't it? Heck, the stock Pioneer system in the Cobalt sounds better then most everything else I ever ride in/drive.

Anything is gonna be better then what it has currently, I drive it once maybe twice a week during the summer and to 3-5 carshows including a 120 mile jaunt (each way) down the freeway. I want decent, crisp, full sound that won't require it being turned all the way up like it does currently (I know part of that is due to the speakers and the fact that they're under the seat) I'd like to spend no more then $500-$600, to some that isn't much, but that's more then I've ever spent on this type of thing and I find that hard to justify as is. I can always upgrade down the road, if I actually do or not is another thing.

Edit: What are all y'alls thoughts on Alpine?

 

alpine is ok stuff

did you have anything else to start out with? bass wise i would recommend 2 ported 8" woofers (are you good with wood or know anyone who is?) then a 4 channel to power the front kick panels and the bass. i might be able to help you out a lil on the equiptment but sorta depends on the box u know

 

Anything else as in.....?

I'm not gonna do subs at this point, maybe at a later date, other priorities first.