Need some expert advice for DF Goblin build
06-07-2019, 03:54 AM
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Need some expert advice for DF Goblin build
First off, I want to say hello guys! This is my first post here and I'm sure I'm asking some questions that you all have probably seen and answered many times before, so I apologize in advance for adding to it. I found this forum from several searches and have found some useful information from here, but I thought it would be more beneficial to post and ask some questions that would relate more to what I'm planning to do.
Now, I haven't actually ordered a DF Goblin kit yet as I'm still in the phase of looking things through and seeing how it all shakes out, but I'm seriously excited about the prospect of this kit. As a former auto mechanic, with skills in fabrication as well, I often thought that a tube chassis kit car that used common off the shelf components would be a great toy vehicle, and it looks like I wasn't alone as DF, Exomotive, and others are selling just that!
Despite my experience as an auto mechanic, I actually don't have a ton of experience with the Ecotec engines or the Cobalt which is why I'm here. In fact, the only direct experience I have with the Cobalt and Ecotec is my mother in laws car (LS trim I think) that I have worked on a handful of times, but nothing serious. To build the DF Goblin it looks like I would be best off buying a donor car instead of buying components new/reman, which means that I have to make a decision on which Cobalt trim to target. Obviously the turbo SS (LNF?) would be the most powerful/fastest, however I have found the turbo SS cars harder to find and more expensive and I tend to prefer the simplicity and characteristics of a supercharged engine . Obviously, that means the supercharged SS (LSJ?) would probably be the car to target, and while it has been easier to find they still don't seem plentiful. The lower trims with the 2.2 (L61 & LAP?) are plentiful, and even the 2.4 (LE5?) seems to be at least as plentiful as the supercharged SS. Now, after looking at DF's website and youtube and seeing the difference in acceleration between a Goblin with a stock 2.0 turbo and a stock 2.2 I think I can safely say that I would be happiest with power levels around the stock 2.0 turbo. This is where I've started searching and have been coming up with questions, mostly about the possibilities of using a donor that isn't a turbo SS. I figure that the LSJ engine should be able to match or at least come close to the stock power of a LNF with a pulley swap and a tune, but I honestly don't know and I'm hoping some of you guys could shed some light on that aspect. I also see that it's not uncommon for people to use the supercharger setup from the LSJ on the LE5, and I'm wondering how this compares to going with a LSJ (stock or slightly modded) or LNF. I also see that ZZP lists their supercharger kit (which looks like it's using the factory supercharger from the LSJ) for the 2.2 and 2.4, but I haven't yet found anything about how the 2.2 stacks up after supercharging.
So basically, since I'll have a pretty clean slate I'm wondering which route might be the "best" route to get a donor car that will do 250-300hp at the crank? Obviously the turbo SS is the most direct route but will cost more to buy, cost more for the kit from DF, and will be harder to find. If I have to start modding an engine to get into the HP range I want then I'm curious if it's better to just get the supercharged SS or go "hog wild" on a 2.2/2.4? Also, how do the transmission vary between these engines/trims and would/should that have an impact on what I choose as a donor? Is there any issues with these cars (mainly powertrain since the Goblin seems to mostly reuse those parts and the front suspension) that I should be aware of while searching for donors? I do know the control arm bushings wear out pretty often, but I'm honestly thinking I would just use new control arms instead of the donor cars.
Honestly any info you guys can help with is greatly appreciated! If you read the whole post, I'm sorry it was so long but thank you for taking the time! Thank you!
Now, I haven't actually ordered a DF Goblin kit yet as I'm still in the phase of looking things through and seeing how it all shakes out, but I'm seriously excited about the prospect of this kit. As a former auto mechanic, with skills in fabrication as well, I often thought that a tube chassis kit car that used common off the shelf components would be a great toy vehicle, and it looks like I wasn't alone as DF, Exomotive, and others are selling just that!
Despite my experience as an auto mechanic, I actually don't have a ton of experience with the Ecotec engines or the Cobalt which is why I'm here. In fact, the only direct experience I have with the Cobalt and Ecotec is my mother in laws car (LS trim I think) that I have worked on a handful of times, but nothing serious. To build the DF Goblin it looks like I would be best off buying a donor car instead of buying components new/reman, which means that I have to make a decision on which Cobalt trim to target. Obviously the turbo SS (LNF?) would be the most powerful/fastest, however I have found the turbo SS cars harder to find and more expensive and I tend to prefer the simplicity and characteristics of a supercharged engine . Obviously, that means the supercharged SS (LSJ?) would probably be the car to target, and while it has been easier to find they still don't seem plentiful. The lower trims with the 2.2 (L61 & LAP?) are plentiful, and even the 2.4 (LE5?) seems to be at least as plentiful as the supercharged SS. Now, after looking at DF's website and youtube and seeing the difference in acceleration between a Goblin with a stock 2.0 turbo and a stock 2.2 I think I can safely say that I would be happiest with power levels around the stock 2.0 turbo. This is where I've started searching and have been coming up with questions, mostly about the possibilities of using a donor that isn't a turbo SS. I figure that the LSJ engine should be able to match or at least come close to the stock power of a LNF with a pulley swap and a tune, but I honestly don't know and I'm hoping some of you guys could shed some light on that aspect. I also see that it's not uncommon for people to use the supercharger setup from the LSJ on the LE5, and I'm wondering how this compares to going with a LSJ (stock or slightly modded) or LNF. I also see that ZZP lists their supercharger kit (which looks like it's using the factory supercharger from the LSJ) for the 2.2 and 2.4, but I haven't yet found anything about how the 2.2 stacks up after supercharging.
So basically, since I'll have a pretty clean slate I'm wondering which route might be the "best" route to get a donor car that will do 250-300hp at the crank? Obviously the turbo SS is the most direct route but will cost more to buy, cost more for the kit from DF, and will be harder to find. If I have to start modding an engine to get into the HP range I want then I'm curious if it's better to just get the supercharged SS or go "hog wild" on a 2.2/2.4? Also, how do the transmission vary between these engines/trims and would/should that have an impact on what I choose as a donor? Is there any issues with these cars (mainly powertrain since the Goblin seems to mostly reuse those parts and the front suspension) that I should be aware of while searching for donors? I do know the control arm bushings wear out pretty often, but I'm honestly thinking I would just use new control arms instead of the donor cars.
Honestly any info you guys can help with is greatly appreciated! If you read the whole post, I'm sorry it was so long but thank you for taking the time! Thank you!
06-07-2019, 08:29 AM
#2
I know you asked for expert advice, which I can't help you with. The only advice I can offer shade-tree tier.
You can supercharge the 2.2 but to be safe they typically don't recommend over 250 hp on stock internals as the rods like to bend. I would personally recommend staying away from the 2.2 just so you don't have to mess with swapping engine internals or run it on the ragged edge. Iirc the 2.4 have better rods and pistons and you could probably throw everything the M62 can efficiently make depending on what fuel you want to run or if you want to mess around with water/methanol injection. Even though you could make good power with stock pistons it probably isn't a bad idea to gap the rings a bit though there are people way more failure with the 2.4 that will hopefully chime in a clarify if that is necessary. Accordingly I also can't tell you for sure how far you could push it with a turbo kit but you would be able to make more power than with the M62 on the same fuel. The LSJ and LNF are both good engines. The LSJ is port injected and the LNF is direct injected. You could also throw a turbo kit on the LSJ and easily make the top end of your power goals. I think LSJ can be pretty safe up to 400hp on stock internals. It's also easier to throw more fuel in with the LSJ because you can just swap in larger injectors. However, the LNF could probably meet the top end of your power goals with nothing more than a better downpipe and a tune.
You can supercharge the 2.2 but to be safe they typically don't recommend over 250 hp on stock internals as the rods like to bend. I would personally recommend staying away from the 2.2 just so you don't have to mess with swapping engine internals or run it on the ragged edge. Iirc the 2.4 have better rods and pistons and you could probably throw everything the M62 can efficiently make depending on what fuel you want to run or if you want to mess around with water/methanol injection. Even though you could make good power with stock pistons it probably isn't a bad idea to gap the rings a bit though there are people way more failure with the 2.4 that will hopefully chime in a clarify if that is necessary. Accordingly I also can't tell you for sure how far you could push it with a turbo kit but you would be able to make more power than with the M62 on the same fuel. The LSJ and LNF are both good engines. The LSJ is port injected and the LNF is direct injected. You could also throw a turbo kit on the LSJ and easily make the top end of your power goals. I think LSJ can be pretty safe up to 400hp on stock internals. It's also easier to throw more fuel in with the LSJ because you can just swap in larger injectors. However, the LNF could probably meet the top end of your power goals with nothing more than a better downpipe and a tune.
06-07-2019, 10:35 AM
#3
If you're more of a V8 guy, Exomotive is working on a Corvette version of the Exocet (they're dubbing it the Exovette). They've been driving it but I don't know when it'll be available. C5 rollerskate on a tube chassis. Weight savings is meh, but it'll be stiffer and more open. But bang-for-the-buck and kit completeness, the DF Goblin with an LSJ is hard to beat. You can watch the Goonzquad episodes on Youtube to get a very good idea of how the kit would go together.
06-07-2019, 10:43 AM
#4
If you're more of a V8 guy, Exomotive is working on a Corvette version of the Exocet (they're dubbing it the Exovette). They've been driving it but I don't know when it'll be available. C5 rollerskate on a tube chassis. Weight savings is meh, but it'll be stiffer and more open. But bang-for-the-buck and kit completeness, the DF Goblin with an LSJ is hard to beat. You can watch the Goonzquad episodes on Youtube to get a very good idea of how the kit would go together.
06-07-2019, 04:00 PM
#5
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I know you asked for expert advice, which I can't help you with. The only advice I can offer shade-tree tier.
You can supercharge the 2.2 but to be safe they typically don't recommend over 250 hp on stock internals as the rods like to bend. I would personally recommend staying away from the 2.2 just so you don't have to mess with swapping engine internals or run it on the ragged edge. Iirc the 2.4 have better rods and pistons and you could probably throw everything the M62 can efficiently make depending on what fuel you want to run or if you want to mess around with water/methanol injection. Even though you could make good power with stock pistons it probably isn't a bad idea to gap the rings a bit though there are people way more failure with the 2.4 that will hopefully chime in a clarify if that is necessary. Accordingly I also can't tell you for sure how far you could push it with a turbo kit but you would be able to make more power than with the M62 on the same fuel. The LSJ and LNF are both good engines. The LSJ is port injected and the LNF is direct injected. You could also throw a turbo kit on the LSJ and easily make the top end of your power goals. I think LSJ can be pretty safe up to 400hp on stock internals. It's also easier to throw more fuel in with the LSJ because you can just swap in larger injectors. However, the LNF could probably meet the top end of your power goals with nothing more than a better downpipe and a tune.
You can supercharge the 2.2 but to be safe they typically don't recommend over 250 hp on stock internals as the rods like to bend. I would personally recommend staying away from the 2.2 just so you don't have to mess with swapping engine internals or run it on the ragged edge. Iirc the 2.4 have better rods and pistons and you could probably throw everything the M62 can efficiently make depending on what fuel you want to run or if you want to mess around with water/methanol injection. Even though you could make good power with stock pistons it probably isn't a bad idea to gap the rings a bit though there are people way more failure with the 2.4 that will hopefully chime in a clarify if that is necessary. Accordingly I also can't tell you for sure how far you could push it with a turbo kit but you would be able to make more power than with the M62 on the same fuel. The LSJ and LNF are both good engines. The LSJ is port injected and the LNF is direct injected. You could also throw a turbo kit on the LSJ and easily make the top end of your power goals. I think LSJ can be pretty safe up to 400hp on stock internals. It's also easier to throw more fuel in with the LSJ because you can just swap in larger injectors. However, the LNF could probably meet the top end of your power goals with nothing more than a better downpipe and a tune.
Honestly, it looks like you've been around here long enough to pick up on plenty of information and knowledge about what is possible with this car/platform and to me that makes you close enough to an expert. Thank you for the info about the 2.2, this probably explains why I found very little info about SC'ing the 2.2 and found more info about the 2.4 having a stronger bottom end and therefore a couple of build threads/videos on people SC'ing those. One of the things I'm struggling with as I think about this build is putting well used components from a donor car into a "new" toy car. Rebuilding the engine, or even one of those nice looking ZZP short blocks, is something I'm considering despite the additional cost (and I'm already almost 100% on just going with new suspension components instead of using the donors). I suppose if I were to go the 2.2 route and was going to rebuild it anyways it wouldn't be a hassle to put stronger bottom end parts in, but would likely just add to the costs for no good reason. So basically it's still sounding like I should ideally look for a SS/SC and possibly consider a 2.4 if it falls into my lap.If you're more of a V8 guy, Exomotive is working on a Corvette version of the Exocet (they're dubbing it the Exovette). They've been driving it but I don't know when it'll be available. C5 rollerskate on a tube chassis. Weight savings is meh, but it'll be stiffer and more open. But bang-for-the-buck and kit completeness, the DF Goblin with an LSJ is hard to beat. You can watch the Goonzquad episodes on Youtube to get a very good idea of how the kit would go together.
06-08-2019, 10:46 PM
#6
I'll take shade tree level and appreciate it! Honestly, it looks like you've been around here long enough to pick up on plenty of information and knowledge about what is possible with this car/platform and to me that makes you close enough to an expert. Thank you for the info about the 2.2, this probably explains why I found very little info about SC'ing the 2.2 and found more info about the 2.4 having a stronger bottom end and therefore a couple of build threads/videos on people SC'ing those. One of the things I'm struggling with as I think about this build is putting well used components from a donor car into a "new" toy car. Rebuilding the engine, or even one of those nice looking ZZP short blocks, is something I'm considering despite the additional cost (and I'm already almost 100% on just going with new suspension components instead of using the donors). I suppose if I were to go the 2.2 route and was going to rebuild it anyways it wouldn't be a hassle to put stronger bottom end parts in, but would likely just add to the costs for no good reason. So basically it's still sounding like I should ideally look for a SS/SC and possibly consider a 2.4 if it falls into my lap.
Not really into anything in specific. I like everything with an engine, cars, trucks, buggies, bikes, boats, etc. An Exovette sounds pretty crazy, although I think there are several of the Exocet's with an LS swapped in already, but I'm not a huge fan of how the Exocet looks or it's design. I'm sure it's a blast to drive, but the Goblin just ticks more boxes that make it interesting and unique to me. I've watched most of the Goonzquad series on their Goblin, despite not being a fan of their presentation and cringing at quite a few of their assembly methods, and the kit seems pretty well made and frankly darn simple to assemble. Thanks for the suggestion though!
Honestly, it looks like you've been around here long enough to pick up on plenty of information and knowledge about what is possible with this car/platform and to me that makes you close enough to an expert. Thank you for the info about the 2.2, this probably explains why I found very little info about SC'ing the 2.2 and found more info about the 2.4 having a stronger bottom end and therefore a couple of build threads/videos on people SC'ing those. One of the things I'm struggling with as I think about this build is putting well used components from a donor car into a "new" toy car. Rebuilding the engine, or even one of those nice looking ZZP short blocks, is something I'm considering despite the additional cost (and I'm already almost 100% on just going with new suspension components instead of using the donors). I suppose if I were to go the 2.2 route and was going to rebuild it anyways it wouldn't be a hassle to put stronger bottom end parts in, but would likely just add to the costs for no good reason. So basically it's still sounding like I should ideally look for a SS/SC and possibly consider a 2.4 if it falls into my lap.Not really into anything in specific. I like everything with an engine, cars, trucks, buggies, bikes, boats, etc. An Exovette sounds pretty crazy, although I think there are several of the Exocet's with an LS swapped in already, but I'm not a huge fan of how the Exocet looks or it's design. I'm sure it's a blast to drive, but the Goblin just ticks more boxes that make it interesting and unique to me. I've watched most of the Goonzquad series on their Goblin, despite not being a fan of their presentation and cringing at quite a few of their assembly methods, and the kit seems pretty well made and frankly darn simple to assemble. Thanks for the suggestion though!
06-09-2019, 01:51 AM
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I agree the exocet is ugly but we'll have to disagree on the goblin looking better. It's definitely easier to assemble but I've heard it has some handling issues, likely due to a combination of no weight on the front wheels and having the Delta's MacPherson struts in the back. There are LS exocets but they are pretty expensive to build. Personally I'd rather just have a Corvette than do an exovette. Had I started over from the beginning I would have sold or dumped my Miata and waited for a C5 z06 to come up for sale under $10k, but I'm committed and I'm enjoying the build.
The MR layout is a big part of what I like about the Goblin over the Exocet FR layout. Like you mentioned, it does sound like there is some lightness in the front end due to that layout but I'm sure there are some solutions if I find it to be an issue. I doubt the factory struts end up on the Goblin, I'd probably go with the coil overs in the rear to match the setup in the front. I agree with you about just having a Vette instead of hacking one up with a kit frame. Even using a Miata donor for the Exocet seems a little silly as the Miata is a good little sports car. No offense to you Cobalt owners but ultimately the Cobalt is/was an economy car that got a little hot rodded with the SS version. Part of what I like about the Goblin kit is taking parts from that unassuming economy car and using them to make something unique and fun.Right now I'm watching a handful of auctions for 2.0L SC and 2.4L NA Cobalts and seeing what they sell for. Trying to get a little understanding of their market values based on trim, damage, etc. As I've been looking into all this stuff the wife has started talking about how fun it would be for her to show up in work driving the Goblin, so I'm taking that as a sign that she approves
06-09-2019, 09:59 PM
#8
look at some online auctions in your area. i saw a turbo one on auction for 950 bux the other day that had been rearended, it was a auction but 950 they woulda taken it off auction!! thats your best bet and if i had 950 woulda bought it as a backup motor n tranny. as for putting coilovers on the back i think you wanna keep it stock, the higher the rear and lower the front the better weight transfer you'll have wen taking off so u wont just fry tires
06-09-2019, 10:53 PM
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look at some online auctions in your area. i saw a turbo one on auction for 950 bux the other day that had been rearended, it was a auction but 950 they woulda taken it off auction!! thats your best bet and if i had 950 woulda bought it as a backup motor n tranny. as for putting coilovers on the back i think you wanna keep it stock, the higher the rear and lower the front the better weight transfer you'll have wen taking off so u wont just fry tires
For reference, the cheapest SS/SC sold for $200. The most expensive was $3600. Average is coming out around $992. Minimum mileage of 43k, maximum of 282k, average of 136k.
The coilovers shouldn't cause any issues with height. They're adjustable and tuneable to get it setup however I'd like it. They might be an unnecessary expense though, it wouldn't hurt to build the car using the stock strut assembly and see how it is before going to the coilovers.
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