well yes no points for being reasoned, and correct. oh well i am getting off the forums tonight... had enough .....lol

 

TWB & ARB

what do they stand for? or am i goint to have to :aaron: myself?

 

twisting beam axle, anti-roll bar

 

ah damn. hahah, thanks maven, i should have known that, and now that you have told me, i think i should slap myself.

 

Agreed. Snap oversteer will put you in the trees when you least expect it. Balance is what you want, unless you're building a drift car or something...

 

I think that's the problem, they not saying these characteristics are necessarily desirable in a road going car, they are saying they have a use on a track car.

 

no they arent

 

On a RWD car, with a proper driver, oversteer is always faster than understeer

 

....this is a site dedicated to a fwd car and people are talking about street handling, not the fastest way around a track with a skilled driver.

And you are also just adding to the misconception that a car has to either be a landbarge and plow through turns or be a tailhappy drifter and have the rear wheels be worthless.

You want a car that is neutrally balanced...... ESPECIALLY on the street.

 

*I* am just explaining what the people who ARE talking about TRACK specific setups are coming from. Somehow I thought trying to clear the air on the fact that those cars are track specific would do just the opposite of what you suggest, but, if people want to think a track setup is a good idea for the street, it is going to be hard to stop them, regardless. You can post until you're blue in the face, and the fact is, the majority of people will still make **** POOR decisions when modifying their cars, especially on sites like this.

 

So for a daily driver 2.2 such as myself, would a sway bar be a bad thing? I like to take some spirited turns now and then, but this thread has got me a little scared that the sway bar will increase my chances of a rollover.

 

rollover? no, that wouldn't i don't think, if anything without the body roll, you'd be more likely to spin out.

 

On your daily driver, and on most of the people who appreciate a good handling car, but a smart enough not to take that too far, your best bet is to upgrade to the cobalt ss's suspension. Sway bars are meant to compiment springs, shocks, struts, and the rest of the suspension and chassis, so, although just upgrading to a gm 24mm front sway bar probably wouldn't be terrible, it'd be better to do it all.

 

No as pointed out, a rear sway bar wont dramatically increase the likelihood of you rollin over, the larger you go though you will see a dramatic increase in the likelihood of spinning the car around.

Just a swap out to the SS/SC front sway bar and SS/SC springs(you should be able to get these parts for under $250 NEW) will make a big difference in the handling of your car, plus it will be pretty well balanced(not likely to spin or slide) even in spirited daily driving, plus it will still maintain the saftey margin of having understeer during more aggressive manouvers.

 

WELL to be precise, you and Maven are mostly both right; in road racing the ideal is good initial turn in, no over steer, but slight under steer if turn in is too late (driver error) good rotation ( which can lead over steer driver error )under balanced power to the apex, and then no over steer from the apex under acceleration to track out...on ovals, fast is loose, but now we are talking about a completely different set of circumstances. TRUE for sure the forum is full of folks that don't understand, and the danger is that they would interpret over steer as a high yaw angle (drift) which is very slow useless and burns up the tires, (but fun)

yup thats 100% true the key word is balance, and mostly fwd cars you need to tune out the "too much understeer" I think a properly built Redline/ Cobalt is a great car to drive, (mine is excellent) the LNF Balt is the best off the showroom floor fwd performance car currently for sale among all makes imho

 

thanks Maven.

 

I'm just trying to sift though a lot of the more technical terms on here and getting down the nitty gritty of it to get a basic answer out there for what a lot of people are probably wanting to ask, including myself. I have an SS/SC and I have a little more to be desired because of the understeer going into the corners, and I love twisty roads and have some autox aspirations. Would it be recommended within a resonable price range to intall a good set of lowering springs to bring your center of gravity down, then throw on a stiffer rear ARB to eliminate much of the understeer? And if that's slightly too much oversteer, possibly a strut brace would be enough to take care of that to give it a bit more balance? I'm just trying to get to the core of this for those of us simply looking for a solid setup to do some spirited canyon carving as well as Autox who don't have the cash for a full on racing suspension. oh yeah, how will a decent set of struts affect that as well, do they just keep the tires on the road a bit more effectively?

 

let me get down to the nitty gritty for you. If you pay attention to Maven and what he has been posting, you will not go wrong. Now to the hard part.

I have been racing and training with race drivers for a long time. Folks with names like Andretti, Gordon, Tracy, Goodyear have spent time training with me. In years and years of training it has been clear to me that most understeer is caused by drivers entering turns to fast...all cars, even a bath tub Porsche or an old VDub will understeer if corner entry is too fast and steering inputs too great.

the great drivers, like Schumacher (no did not train with him!) Jeff Gordon, and Scott Goodyear in particular, enter corners noticeably slower in road racing than many other drivers, but exit waaaay faster. No driver induced understeer.

You cant just rush up to the turn, jam on the brakes at the last second and yank on the wheel. You gotta brake sooner more gradually, turn in (slow the hands down) get the line right clip the apex and accelerate out while unwinding the (steering) wheel.

The fastest driver i ever saw entering Turn 1 at Mosport was Bobby Unser in a Jorgensen Eagle F5000 car. Incredible to watch, awe inspiring even. But supreme dog **** at exit...slow slow slow...

So the bottom line here? Strut braces do nothing. You need FE5 damping, front bar, rear twb, FE5 bushings, some nice Eibach or H&R springs, an added rear tubular chrome moly sway bar no more than 90 wall 1.25 and hammer down drive it right. I
and you will do well. Or just go get a new TC and get the best of the best OEM .....IMHO

 

Watch what an SCCA T3 racecar can do and decide if you need a lower center of gravity or not. YES a rear antiroll bar will reduce understeer.

No a strut brace is a waste of money. If the bar provides too much oversteer you need a smaller bar, another plan of attack could be to install Koni yellows in the back, and when you go to the track crank up the rebound damping, this will help control how quickly the body rolls. without actually changing how much the car rolls.

Youve already got a decent setup. If you want to carve it up, you cant really get too much better than Sportline springs and a bolton rear bar for a budget build. This is a solid setup. If you dont want the drop, order up SS/TC springs and a bar for the rear. Lots of people like the TTR bar, but most(if honest, or actually driving the car) will admit that it makes the car pretty tailhappy, especially in the wet/snow. the Progress bar will make a nice addition and will likely keep you from getting significant oversteer/tailhappiness in poor weather. SS/SC struts are good stuff. No need to change unless you want to go Konis(not a boltin mod and kindof overdamped unless you set them soft, but why bother then?)

 

I was going to saying something similar regarding the driver, but looks like qwik to beat me to it.

Most of the time when people complains about car handling issues, it can be narrow down to a simple case of misdiagnose. Give any car to a somewhat skilled driver, and I can guarantee you he/she can make that car understeer/oversteer on demand. It's not rocket science, but simply pure physics.

Driving is easy, the art lies in knowing what to do what and when to do it, or know what not to do what and when not to do it. If you simply cannot make the car do what you wanted when you want it to do it, sometimes it is very convenient to simply blame the car. The hard part is differentiate between handling issues or driving issues. If you clearly know if that is really an issues with the car then it will be a good start.

IMO, adjusting you street suspension setting base on autox runs is far from ideal. For example if you are driving your car all four seasons, that should be your major factor for having a balanced set up.

 

there you go! good post, some clear concise analysis on a forum best known for weird threads lol

 

haha, I was actually heavily considering that, but with school for 2 more years and the fact that I won't be able to get a cosigner again and refuse to pay more than 10% interest for a loan means it won't be happening unfortunately. Even though my current plans look to run as much as a decent down payment I'm going to wait on it... I appriciate all the input on the last 3 posts. I was looking to just do those minimal mods as far as the rear sway and lowering springs. I'm moving to a place where there is little rain and NO snow, haha, so I'll be good as far as it being a little tail happy. I'd consider myself an above average to good driver as far as ability in and out of turns, and YES entering slower and then getting yourself in a your engine's RPM wheelhouse coming out of the turns is very important I just really like a very tight response from the steering wheel, can thank spending my 1st couple years driving in a Camaro, lol. Thanks again guys for the positive reinforcement

 

i think i love you.....

 

haha. wow. tyler, realx man.

John, how about sending a rear sway along with the hubs?

question for brad and John:

I have K-sport coilovers, and it sounds like the 1.25" chrome moly rear bar would provide the best balance for a street car. what other parts would you suggest adding to the suspension? if any? If you want john, i'll be the test car for a 1.25" bar with spherical joints in the TWB, haha.

also, does the b-woody rear tie bar have any benefit? other than with the adjustability to add camber?

i was looking at the upgraded lower control arms as well.

 

the problem is it never ends. I am working on a cheap 114.3 upgrade for you and may have to make a bracket to mount the rear hub bearing (ex front Solstice or whatever depending on abs tooth count issues) with the way i may have to mount the rear wheel bearing you will potentially be able to use the Grand Am style spacer plate to shim and align from there ; my RL is plenty fast without the rear spherical joints, but i will prolly change that this winter. Next up on your "to-do" list is to get some URace It sub frame connectors i think that is a meaningful improvement, no actual specific data to support my claim...