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Lean Less: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine Articles

No wise guy comments from me... Here's a good website that can take you though a lot of suspension info -- Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - ATW Home Page I have used this site, and several others, a bunch. I have done lots of personal research on handling in general, front wheel drives in particular. It isn't mysterious, it's science. I've experimented over the past 6-8 years attempting to make my Cobalt SS (and before the Cobalt, a couple of Saturn Ion Redlines) competitive at the National level in SCCA autocrossing. I've read, studied, and then bought and installed various parts, piece at a time.

To be brief, as the car leans in a turn (and it leans more as you drive faster/turn harder), the swaybar is pushing against the lean (using the entire weight of the car) and attempting to keep the car straight and level at all times (despite the turn). The bigger the bar, the harder it pushes -- the less the lean, you get the idea.

American cars - both FWD and RWD - are usually configured to 'push' (meaning that the front tires slide/push sideways) at the edge of traction in a corner (has nothing to do with straight-line stopping). It's very 'safe' for the average (which means typically lousy) driver. It's also slow in the turns. Adding a very stiff rear swaybar to an otherwise 'pushing' car, can make it 'oversteer' - the backend will come out at the edge (rather than 'pushing') - and that can be dangerous/difficult for the 'average' driver (like my 89-year-old-mother). Generally, having a car that 'can' oversteer is faster.

Swaybars alone, will not completely change the handling of a stock car -- springs, shocks, bushings, braces, wheels, tires, camber and toe changes, etc., etc. -- all have a part, but a swaybar is probably the most effective single thing you can do. So that's the short of it.

And you have to use common sense as in everything else.

FWD (sorry, Front Wheel Drive) cars are worse at pushing that RWD cars. If I'm cornering with a powerful RWD car and I stand on the gas, the back tires spin and the car oversteers dramatically (with tires smoking -- whee -- 360s). If I'm cornering with a powerful FWD car (like my Stage I, 280+ HP Cobalt SS) and I stand on the gas, the front tires spin and the car pushes even more than before - a lousy, slow corner. I'm trying to get to the point where I can stand on the gas in a corner and the front tires stick and I just accellerate through the corner. A stiff rear sway on a FWD car tends to make the fronts really stick better (at least that has been my experience) and I can really put the power on the ground. On the other hand, if I'm driving the car on the edge in a fast sweeper, or in a fast slalom section where I'm rapidly changing directions and throwing the car side-to-dide, because everything is so stiff, the rear end can slide out (if I do it right it's a nice drift) and I can again step on the gas and power through the corner.

However, I admit to spinning my car more than once on an autocross course - either swapping ends or doing a 270+. The SCCA rule for a spin is "both feet in" - which means clutch and brake until everything stops moving - then put is back in gear and go. I don't drive on the edge on the street - too many cops, way too expensive (tickets), too many 'average' driver people, but I do enjoy the great handling that comes along with the many suspension mods.

A friend of mine, an 'average' driver, who owns a newish (2-year-old) Subaru WRX (not an STI), co-drove my car at an autocross event recently - his very first time EVER driving anything competitive - and I had him drive a little around on the street in street-trim (not on the big wheels and the slicks) just to get the feel of the car. He ended up being 18th out of 36 'rookie' drivers (he drove alone and he rode along with me a couple runs to see how fast he could really go) - pretty good first time out - he attributed it totally to the car. He said: "Your car is really easy to drive fast, it really sticks; it was the car, it wasn't me". He caught me yesterday at work and said: "The handling on my car really sucks (his WRX)! I didn't know it before, not until I drove your car. How can I make my car handle better? What do I need to buy?"

Interesting what a little knowledge does for you... Sorry about the long answer.

Scott

If I were you, yes, I'd get one. Scott

If you think the bars do nothing your soooooooo wrong.

^^^ who implied that?

I found the rigidity of the hardcore bar highly over exaggerated, seems this my wind up being similar.

Cranemaster....but like he saidhe knows nothing about suspension lol.

scottherbert..... VERY VERY VERY good post!!!

gotch. We were all there at one point as long as people are willing to learn

Love the Dennis Grant stuff, Scott. Here's some more good info Chassis Newsletter - Evil Twin Motorsports

Yep this site needs more education. Im on a phone so I can't post a novel. Scott got it well covered

@scottherbert

Thanks for the info and long reply, I had this idea because are cars are one of the best handling stock fwd I've driven that it already had a sway bar'esq system in it. I installed a(cheap eBay) sway bar on my civic and it helped a lot, but the suspension on my civic loooked nothing like my cobalts.

glad to hear it!

I wasn't intending to insult your intelligence, I just didn't know how much you already knew...

Except for the rear end, the Cobalt is very much like the Civic (or any other FWD car for that matter) -- struts, Lower control arms, shocks, etc. Where the suspension is located, how stiff it is (springs mostly), how good the shocks are, how stiff the swaybars are, how 'flexible' the suspension components are, etc., these all make differences - but in reality, the basic suspension 'rules' are the same.

How the 'rules' get applied from vehicle-to-vehicle, are where the successful people get ahead.

Scott

exactly. its not an insult. no one knows how much anyone knows....considering you said you had no idea about the suspension on this car he gave you some good reading material. dont buy ebay parts for this car and buy the right suspension parts. theres a lot of bs copys on here made from worse materials and theres also a lot of unknowledgeable people on here that think certain setups are great for a road coarse or autox they fail miserably.

So this being said would you also recommend skipping hardcore and going straight to the XXX?

haha as far as ive heard if you dont know how to drive or dont auto x or do time attack you wont ever need/use the xxx hardcore will be just fine

I'm tempted to get the 1.5 bar for autocross, but the rest of my suspension setup is stock.... would this be overkill? :lol:

hmm i dunno id do pedders first then the swaybar but ask mr john powell

I wanted to get pedders for some time now but I need to research more on how it affects daily driving. I will consult john then :)

you are going to need more to handle like an ss/tc, they have thicker front sway bars, and i believe better control arms and knuckles than the ss/sc. also better struts and shocks

i had sportlines now i have pedders and a hardcore bar and i drive my car every day and its fine great ride and handles great and not super low so you dont have to worry about hitting dips and ripping your lip off all the time

This thread makes me want one, I could care less how rough of a ride I have. I just can't deal with a lowered car where I live, and alternatives to lowering that make you handle well are very interesting to me.

Also they look bad ass. :)

Haha its not really about or for looks lol

Well I hit the back roads pretty hard from time to time and I'm gonna start autocrossing every chance I get and which shouldn't be too infrequently from now on.

well its up to you...

I like the color ;)