its bad... really bad...
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Joined: 01-12-09
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From: Illinois
The bottom end is pretty much a girdle already, not much more to do there. I suggested to Fabian that we cryo the crank while it's out, I know of a place very near to me that's reasonable. Considering this build is already way over what he wanted to spend, doing a bunch of part swapping to create some oddball bottom end is not a good idea at the moment. I believe the block has to be decked with the sleeves, I'm assuming Bates will handle that.
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Joined: 01-12-09
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From: Illinois
Gah! Killin me here smalls! You know BTF? He is selling K1 rods right now for $400 for the set, or something like that, and they hold up to 800hp! IDK why you would put the stock rods back in, when its been proven they bend around 450-500 whp. Not criticizing, I know he is on a budget, but it really makes little sense to me to leave a known weak point in, and risk having to do all this over again. I mean, $1500 for sleeves, $500ish for pistons, prolly about $400 would go into cryotreating the rods and crank, and another $250 for machining, whats another $400??
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Joined: 02-19-09
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From: Carol Stream
::facepalm:: doing cyro on the crank isnt a bad idea since its good to more hp then i think anyone will be pushing out of this car anytime soon. honestly why waste money for an 18% strength increase on the rods. you already are going to have all this stuff out of the car. do it right. i understand he doesnt wanna spend money but honestly you pay to play. and from experiance with my camaro i know first hand. forced induction is not a cheap ball game but from what i read is going on with his treadstone stuff.... 5085 6262 and some other turbo.......hes going to need rods or his engine will be apart yet again. sorry if i sound like a complete dick but im calling it as i see it. this isnt soemthing that should be cheaped out on because he took a gamble in the first place.
i have a set of k1 rods that i picked up. nice piece. spend the extra few hundred and get rods that will last.
i have a set of k1 rods that i picked up. nice piece. spend the extra few hundred and get rods that will last.
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Joined: 01-12-09
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From: Illinois
::facepalm:: doing cyro on the crank isnt a bad idea since its good to more hp then i think anyone will be pushing out of this car anytime soon. honestly why waste money for an 18% strength increase on the rods. you already are going to have all this stuff out of the car. do it right. i understand he doesnt wanna spend money but honestly you pay to play. and from experiance with my camaro i know first hand. forced induction is not a cheap ball game but from what i read is going on with his treadstone stuff.... 5085 6262 and some other turbo.......hes going to need rods or his engine will be apart yet again. sorry if i sound like a complete dick but im calling it as i see it. this isnt soemthing that should be cheaped out on
i have a set of k1 rods that i picked up. nice piece. spend the extra few hundred and get rods that will last.
i have a set of k1 rods that i picked up. nice piece. spend the extra few hundred and get rods that will last.
Member
Joined: 07-22-09
Posts: 392
Likes: 1
From: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
well italianjoe is working on my car changing the pistons and this is what he found out...
http://s818.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=P1060428.jpg
and it should look like this
http://s818.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=P1060433.jpg
what we are going to do is send the block to Darton for them to have put sleeves in, bored out to stock bore and put in the new wisco pistons... and hopefully after that ill get my car back...
http://s818.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=P1060428.jpg
and it should look like this
http://s818.photobucket.com/albums/z...t=P1060433.jpg
what we are going to do is send the block to Darton for them to have put sleeves in, bored out to stock bore and put in the new wisco pistons... and hopefully after that ill get my car back...
What are you running on this turbo wise and calibration/tune wise? The from the picture it looks like a perignition or detonation type failure. If you don't "fix" the tune you will have the same problems all over again on your brand new sleeves. If it is preignition it may be caused by added boost at too low of RPM. Any added boost under 2000 RPM and you are asking for a preignition problem, engine breakage. The detonation would be due to too much spark advance for the conditions.
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Joined: 06-10-08
Posts: 642
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From: Michigan
We can use the 2.4 crank, but that will only give us I believe just over 2200 cc's of displacement on the stock bore, 2 sizes larger should give us just over 2300 cc's, and with sleeves, I think 3 sizes over should qualify as a 2.4L (2380+ cc's). I did all the math at one point in time, but it was a while ago, and my wallet has since dismissed the idea.
BUT, the moral of the story is the LE5 crank WILL, in fact, work in the LNF block. Now, if it is any better, or stronger than the LNF block is to be determined. I know the build book gives the specifics for the 2.2 crank, but I do not think it gives the LE5 crank ratings. Though, you could always have a billet one made ($$$$$$$), or get the OEM one cryo treated. Cryo treating gives something like 18%-30% more strength to a component, which may not sound substantial, but it really is. You figure, the LE5 crank is good to probably 500hp, add 18% more to that, and its close to 100 more hp that it can handle, for relatively cheap. Sorry for the longevity of this post, just thinking out loud really.
Also, I am curious if you are getting the block decked, or running a girdle, or anything to beef up the bottom end of the block itself?
BUT, the moral of the story is the LE5 crank WILL, in fact, work in the LNF block. Now, if it is any better, or stronger than the LNF block is to be determined. I know the build book gives the specifics for the 2.2 crank, but I do not think it gives the LE5 crank ratings. Though, you could always have a billet one made ($$$$$$$), or get the OEM one cryo treated. Cryo treating gives something like 18%-30% more strength to a component, which may not sound substantial, but it really is. You figure, the LE5 crank is good to probably 500hp, add 18% more to that, and its close to 100 more hp that it can handle, for relatively cheap. Sorry for the longevity of this post, just thinking out loud really.
Also, I am curious if you are getting the block decked, or running a girdle, or anything to beef up the bottom end of the block itself?
Block girdle, have you seen the main bearing setup on these motors, it's beast!
ryan those scratches/groves/marks in the block are DEEP. even if he were to go the cheap route, it would need a new stock sleeve
that cylinder was at ZERO compression
that cylinder was at ZERO compression
Last edited by BLAZIN07SS; Apr 2, 2010 at 08:50 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
The 2.4L crank is cast. It is a nice looking crank, double counter weights, basicly knife edged, but still cast. The LNF crank is still stronger. How deep are the scores in the block. It's hard to tell in the pic, but just a hone and a better tune-up might do the trick. The GenII block and sleeves are rated a lot higher than most any of us are going in power. Just saying, if you can hone the block sleeves are not nessecary, and spend that money on a turbo upgrade.
Block girdle, have you seen the main bearing setup on these motors, it's beast!
Block girdle, have you seen the main bearing setup on these motors, it's beast!
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Joined: 07-25-08
Posts: 12,450
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From: Florida
Better to leave the stock stroke. The problem with high boost long stroke motors is they tend to bend or break rods because of the extra torque exerted on the rods. Better to have a bigger bore (with thicker stronger sleeves) than a stroker as far as high boost applications go.
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Joined: 06-10-08
Posts: 642
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From: Michigan
Yeah, it's hard to tell how deep the scores are in the pic, but anyway good luck with what ever you decide.
Yes, the blocks are foam cast. They have the same pattern all over outside of them. The LSJ/LNF heads are sand cast, so they are much smoother, but the 2.2 ones have the foam pattern as well. I always think it looks neat, but it also makes for very rough edges on important passages, and sharp corners to cut your hands.
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Joined: 06-21-09
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From: South Texas
Yes, the blocks are foam cast. They have the same pattern all over outside of them. The LSJ/LNF heads are sand cast, so they are much smoother, but the 2.2 ones have the foam pattern as well. I always think it looks neat, but it also makes for very rough edges on important passages, and sharp corners to cut your hands.
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Joined: 05-07-08
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From: Michigan
Bill
you beat me to it. That thing has been detonating like a MO!!!!!!!!!. Better find out why or your new pistons won't last long. I'll be suprised if the ring lands on the stockers arent broken when you take them out. Adding timing advance below 2000 breaks them to.
The scoring is caused by either a broken second land, piston crown overheating from preignition causing it to overexpand and drag the cylinder wall on the exhaust side or ring end butt on the top ring from the same effect.
you beat me to it. That thing has been detonating like a MO!!!!!!!!!. Better find out why or your new pistons won't last long. I'll be suprised if the ring lands on the stockers arent broken when you take them out. Adding timing advance below 2000 breaks them to.
What are you running on this turbo wise and calibration/tune wise? The from the picture it looks like a perignition or detonation type failure. If you don't "fix" the tune you will have the same problems all over again on your brand new sleeves. If it is preignition it may be caused by added boost at too low of RPM. Any added boost under 2000 RPM and you are asking for a preignition problem, engine breakage. The detonation would be due to too much spark advance for the conditions.
Last edited by Gettinausernamesucks; Apr 3, 2010 at 08:22 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Joined: 07-25-08
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From: Florida
Bill
you beat me to it. That thing has been detinating like a MO!!!!!!!!!. Better find out why or your new pistons won't last long. I'll be suprised if the ring lands on the stockers arent broken when you take them out. Adding timing advance below 2000 breaks them to.
The scoring is caused by either a broken second land or the piston crown overheating from preignition causing it to overexpand and drag the cylinder wall on the exhaust side.
you beat me to it. That thing has been detinating like a MO!!!!!!!!!. Better find out why or your new pistons won't last long. I'll be suprised if the ring lands on the stockers arent broken when you take them out. Adding timing advance below 2000 breaks them to.
The scoring is caused by either a broken second land or the piston crown overheating from preignition causing it to overexpand and drag the cylinder wall on the exhaust side.
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Joined: 05-07-08
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From: Michigan
Senior Member
Joined: 07-25-08
Posts: 12,450
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From: Florida
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Joined: 05-07-08
Posts: 188
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From: Michigan
Doesn't matter how hard its driven. At 24 PSI the turbo is running at 90 to 100% rated impeller speed. Anything beyond that just invites compressor surge and soaring charge air temps. Just slapping one of these go for broke cals into an LNF is just creating a grenade. I don't know Vince but he's doing his customers a great disservice because I know he knows that much boost is a ticking timebomb in an LNF with stock piston ring end gaps and a stock intercooler. Not to mention setting the turbo up for an untimely failure.
AF ratio being 11 or 12 ain't gonna fix charge air temps that are probably 250 to 300 degrees or ring end gaps that are to tight for that level of crown temp.
Think about this for a minute. ZZP is making what 425/450 on 24 lbs from a proper setup. Whats the difference why won't a stocker make that. AIRFLOW! Their working the head. SO what do you think 30 pounds in a stock head is doing. Thats right backing up in the ports. And what happens when the air backs up? It gets hotter than a MO!
AF ratio being 11 or 12 ain't gonna fix charge air temps that are probably 250 to 300 degrees or ring end gaps that are to tight for that level of crown temp.
Think about this for a minute. ZZP is making what 425/450 on 24 lbs from a proper setup. Whats the difference why won't a stocker make that. AIRFLOW! Their working the head. SO what do you think 30 pounds in a stock head is doing. Thats right backing up in the ports. And what happens when the air backs up? It gets hotter than a MO!
Last edited by Gettinausernamesucks; Apr 3, 2010 at 08:43 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost