its bad... really bad...
Bill
you beat me to it. That thing has been detonating like a MO!!!!!!!!!. Better find out why or your new pistons won't last long. I'll be suprised if the ring lands on the stockers arent broken when you take them out. Adding timing advance below 2000 breaks them to.
The scoring is caused by either a broken second land, piston crown overheating from preignition causing it to overexpand and drag the cylinder wall on the exhaust side or ring end butt on the top ring from the same effect.
you beat me to it. That thing has been detonating like a MO!!!!!!!!!. Better find out why or your new pistons won't last long. I'll be suprised if the ring lands on the stockers arent broken when you take them out. Adding timing advance below 2000 breaks them to.
The scoring is caused by either a broken second land, piston crown overheating from preignition causing it to overexpand and drag the cylinder wall on the exhaust side or ring end butt on the top ring from the same effect.
Judging by the position of the damage, it's the pistion coming apart between the second and third rings. I'll probably get to pull them tomorrow and find out for sure.
Senior Member
Joined: 03-14-09
Posts: 1,039
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From: Anna, TX
Doesn't matter how hard its driven. At 24 PSI the turbo is running at 90 to 100% rated impeller speed. Anything beyond that just invites compressor surge and soaring charge air temps. Just slapping one of these go for broke cals into an LNF is just creating a grenade. I don't know Vince but he's doing his customers a great disservice because I know he knows that much boost is a ticking timebomb in an LNF with stock piston ring end gaps and a stock intercooler. Not to mention setting the turbo up for an untimely failure.
FWIW, Vince has said time and time again to his customers to NOT run that tune with stock Turbo, clutch, etc. If someone wants it after he tells them not to, who is he to not give the customer what they want? When I was getting him to re-tune my car I asked about it and the first thing he warned me about was grenading my motor since I am mostly stock. It was only meant to be a proof of concept on his HHR, but when he told people about it and they wanted it, he gave it to them.
New Member
Joined: 05-07-08
Posts: 188
Likes: 1
From: Michigan
Sorry guys. I just get a little frusturated when I see folks thrash a perfectly good motor when it could have been avoided. That said if they did it out of their own HP greed and decided to be lazy thats their own fault. If they did it because somone sold them on something that was pie in the sky shame on them. If vince is discouraging people from this then good on him.
Let me say this one time again. Anything over 24/25 LBS on the stock turbo and intercooler will grenade the motor. Its not a matter of if its when.
If you want to go more than that then you need to step up. Add a bigger turbo, bigger intercooler, and adjust the piston clearances and ring gaps.
OK
off the soapbox now.
Let me say this one time again. Anything over 24/25 LBS on the stock turbo and intercooler will grenade the motor. Its not a matter of if its when.
If you want to go more than that then you need to step up. Add a bigger turbo, bigger intercooler, and adjust the piston clearances and ring gaps.
OK
off the soapbox now.
Senior Member
Joined: 02-09-09
Posts: 4,374
Likes: 5
From: Tejas
Bill
you beat me to it. That thing has been detonating like a MO!!!!!!!!!. Better find out why or your new pistons won't last long. I'll be suprised if the ring lands on the stockers arent broken when you take them out. Adding timing advance below 2000 breaks them to.
The scoring is caused by either a broken second land, piston crown overheating from preignition causing it to overexpand and drag the cylinder wall on the exhaust side or ring end butt on the top ring from the same effect.
you beat me to it. That thing has been detonating like a MO!!!!!!!!!. Better find out why or your new pistons won't last long. I'll be suprised if the ring lands on the stockers arent broken when you take them out. Adding timing advance below 2000 breaks them to.
The scoring is caused by either a broken second land, piston crown overheating from preignition causing it to overexpand and drag the cylinder wall on the exhaust side or ring end butt on the top ring from the same effect.
Doesn't matter how hard its driven. At 24 PSI the turbo is running at 90 to 100% rated impeller speed. Anything beyond that just invites compressor surge and soaring charge air temps. Just slapping one of these go for broke cals into an LNF is just creating a grenade. I don't know Vince but he's doing his customers a great disservice because I know he knows that much boost is a ticking timebomb in an LNF with stock piston ring end gaps and a stock intercooler. Not to mention setting the turbo up for an untimely failure.
AF ratio being 11 or 12 ain't gonna fix charge air temps that are probably 250 to 300 degrees or ring end gaps that are to tight for that level of crown temp.
Think about this for a minute. ZZP is making what 425/450 on 24 lbs from a proper setup. Whats the difference why won't a stocker make that. AIRFLOW! Their working the head. SO what do you think 30 pounds in a stock head is doing. Thats right backing up in the ports. And what happens when the air backs up? It gets hotter than a MO!
AF ratio being 11 or 12 ain't gonna fix charge air temps that are probably 250 to 300 degrees or ring end gaps that are to tight for that level of crown temp.
Think about this for a minute. ZZP is making what 425/450 on 24 lbs from a proper setup. Whats the difference why won't a stocker make that. AIRFLOW! Their working the head. SO what do you think 30 pounds in a stock head is doing. Thats right backing up in the ports. And what happens when the air backs up? It gets hotter than a MO!
Sorry guys. I just get a little frusturated when I see folks thrash a perfectly good motor when it could have been avoided. That said if they did it out of their own HP greed and decided to be lazy thats their own fault. If they did it because somone sold them on something that was pie in the sky shame on them. If vince is discouraging people from this then good on him.
Let me say this one time again. Anything over 24/25 LBS on the stock turbo and intercooler will grenade the motor. Its not a matter of if its when.
If you want to go more than that then you need to step up. Add a bigger turbo, bigger intercooler, and adjust the piston clearances and ring gaps.
OK
off the soapbox now.
Let me say this one time again. Anything over 24/25 LBS on the stock turbo and intercooler will grenade the motor. Its not a matter of if its when.
If you want to go more than that then you need to step up. Add a bigger turbo, bigger intercooler, and adjust the piston clearances and ring gaps.
OK
off the soapbox now.
I've been wondering what the proper ring end gap increase should be when going for more power for a while now...
::facepalm:: doing cyro on the crank isnt a bad idea since its good to more hp then i think anyone will be pushing out of this car anytime soon. honestly why waste money for an 18% strength increase on the rods. you already are going to have all this stuff out of the car. do it right. i understand he doesnt wanna spend money but honestly you pay to play. and from experiance with my camaro i know first hand. forced induction is not a cheap ball game but from what i read is going on with his treadstone stuff.... 5085 6262 and some other turbo.......hes going to need rods or his engine will be apart yet again. sorry if i sound like a complete dick but im calling it as i see it. this isnt soemthing that should be cheaped out on because he took a gamble in the first place.
i have a set of k1 rods that i picked up. nice piece. spend the extra few hundred and get rods that will last.
i have a set of k1 rods that i picked up. nice piece. spend the extra few hundred and get rods that will last.
Senior Member
Joined: 03-14-09
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
From: Anna, TX
Former Vendor
Joined: 06-03-08
Posts: 4,169
Likes: 8
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Think about this for a minute. ZZP is making what 425/450 on 24 lbs from a proper setup. Whats the difference why won't a stocker make that. AIRFLOW! Their working the head. SO what do you think 30 pounds in a stock head is doing. Thats right backing up in the ports. And what happens when the air backs up? It gets hotter than a MO!
So the basic consensus is that the excess boost is the culprit, not neccessarily the tune itself. Techincally speaking if HPT could boost 30+ this could happen to a HPT car as well. I havent heard anything negative about the normal 22 PSI Trifecta tune. I imagine the driver of this car pretty much beat it pretty bad, considering the numerous vids, and "kill" list. So, with that being said, alot of boost + alot of WOT = ****?
Senior Member
Joined: 01-12-09
Posts: 4,220
Likes: 0
From: Illinois
It HAS happened to HPT cars, but to much more frequency on Trifecta cars. I think, most of the people running high boost on HPT, know how to log the car, and know how to diagnose the car to maintain a level of safety.
Rent me! per hour
Joined: 03-22-07
Posts: 24,161
Likes: 20
From: Still fixing others mistakes.
So the basic consensus is that the excess boost is the culprit, not neccessarily the tune itself. Techincally speaking if HPT could boost 30+ this could happen to a HPT car as well. I havent heard anything negative about the normal 22 PSI Trifecta tune. I imagine the driver of this car pretty much beat it pretty bad, considering the numerous vids, and "kill" list. So, with that being said, alot of boost + alot of WOT = ****?
Banned
Joined: 02-19-09
Posts: 3,818
Likes: 0
From: Carol Stream
theres nothing wrong with cyro.....just saying for the turbos he wants to throw at his car(percision 6262 which is good to 650) hes going to need rods. plus you can get the k1 rods for 435 from btf which are good to 800hp. might aswell just spend the extra couple hundred and not have to worry about where your rods are going to bend. but if hes not going to throw mass hp at the car then i think cyro is just fine.
Top ring was still overlapped at the end. Piston fell out of the block when I took the cap off the rod (block was upside down at the time).
It also pushed some metal through the oil system. Main bearings are gouged pretty good. Crank looks fine though.
It also pushed some metal through the oil system. Main bearings are gouged pretty good. Crank looks fine though.
Last edited by ItalianJoe1; Apr 5, 2010 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
