Psykotuned Lnf Update
11-30-2008, 05:36 PM
#26
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nice numbers steve!
I have 1 question, on your dyno sheet of the hahn vs your tune, you were able to get 290 wheel vs 276 for hahn on a otherwise stock car, which is concurrent with what Hahn has on their website, almost to the number, as they made 278 with the stock ic and piping and the ppc,
but then on the graph above, you made 305 wheel with an IC, IC piping, catless DP.
Are all those parts only worth 15 wheel hp? I see that the intake and catback are prob not worth much in peak hp.
Synapse got 15 wheel more from just the DP according to their site.
Just curious?
It seems to me that from reading this site, as well as other lnf forums, and seeing dyno numbers from kappa's, cobalt, hhr's, etc
that no matter who tunes the car, with an IC, piping, catback, intake and dp, the lnf will only ever make around 300 to 310 wheel hp with a stock turbo( give or take 5 hp here and there for dyno variations), as it seems to only spike tq early on( which really is not an indicator of how much power the car is actually making) when you throw more boost at it, as the stock turbo just can't flow anymore air and make more hp.
hahn has 285 wheel on his site with the ppc and ic/piping upgrade, and the car has his intake and catback on it already, so throw in a catless dp, and we all know dynos have slight variations, add the 15 wheel to that for the dp and you are at 300 wheel with a ppc tune,
when you are at 305.
just my observation?
I have 1 question, on your dyno sheet of the hahn vs your tune, you were able to get 290 wheel vs 276 for hahn on a otherwise stock car, which is concurrent with what Hahn has on their website, almost to the number, as they made 278 with the stock ic and piping and the ppc,
but then on the graph above, you made 305 wheel with an IC, IC piping, catless DP.
Are all those parts only worth 15 wheel hp? I see that the intake and catback are prob not worth much in peak hp.
Synapse got 15 wheel more from just the DP according to their site.
Just curious?
It seems to me that from reading this site, as well as other lnf forums, and seeing dyno numbers from kappa's, cobalt, hhr's, etc
that no matter who tunes the car, with an IC, piping, catback, intake and dp, the lnf will only ever make around 300 to 310 wheel hp with a stock turbo( give or take 5 hp here and there for dyno variations), as it seems to only spike tq early on( which really is not an indicator of how much power the car is actually making) when you throw more boost at it, as the stock turbo just can't flow anymore air and make more hp.
hahn has 285 wheel on his site with the ppc and ic/piping upgrade, and the car has his intake and catback on it already, so throw in a catless dp, and we all know dynos have slight variations, add the 15 wheel to that for the dp and you are at 300 wheel with a ppc tune,
when you are at 305.
just my observation?
11-30-2008, 05:46 PM
#27
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My brain hurts ^^^ ha you an elgabra teacher? jk I did not look into it that deep but I kinda was thinking the same thing....I thought...NO can't be right, oh well, I must have missed a thread or read something wrong. Keen eye
11-30-2008, 05:57 PM
#30
Turn off the caps.
Every damn post you post is in caps, turn it off.
DP is big on the TQ side of things, if the turbo was larger I would imagine it would add on the top end, overall, the catless DP is the biggest difference I have made to the car other than Steve's base tune.
Every damn post you post is in caps, turn it off.
DP is big on the TQ side of things, if the turbo was larger I would imagine it would add on the top end, overall, the catless DP is the biggest difference I have made to the car other than Steve's base tune.
wish i had the problem of not needing $$$
11-30-2008, 07:44 PM
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Are all those parts only worth 15 wheel hp? I see that the intake and catback are prob not worth much in peak hp.
It seems to me that from reading this site, as well as other lnf forums, and seeing dyno numbers from kappa's, cobalt, hhr's, etcthat no matter who tunes the car, with an IC, piping, catback, intake and dp, the lnf will only ever make around 300 to 310 wheel hp with a stock turbo( give or take 5 hp here and there for dyno variations), as it seems to only spike tq early on( which really is not an indicator of how much power the car is actually making) when you throw more boost at it, as the stock turbo just can't flow anymore air and make more hp.
Try thinking of the car as a garden hose with a kink. You can connect a fire hose to one end, and you're not going to get the full effect of the firehose due to the kink. The turbo is that kink. If the turbo was bigger and able to flow the amount of air that the other upgraded components can support over stock, I'm sure we'd be seeing more than 15whp. Does that make sense?
11-30-2008, 09:03 PM
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Good way to explain it....I plan on gettin a complete turbo upgrade and good tune when I get back from Iraq (I'll leave soon and get back DEC 09) after more testing/tuning/and more parts become available. For now the IC; piping; DP and cat back will have to do :P
11-30-2008, 09:22 PM
#36
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Gotta love tax free pay.
11-30-2008, 09:28 PM
#37
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I see that the turbo is the restriction,
What I was saying is that no matter what tune you go with, hp tuners, ppc, pcmforless, etc
One tune is not going to make a huge amount of hp over another.
With supporting mods(ic,and dp, as I really don't think the piping makes a huge diff, and the catback and intake are also pretty minimal if at all at this hp level) the lnf will make about 300wheel or so with the stock turbo.
What I was saying is that no matter what tune you go with, hp tuners, ppc, pcmforless, etc
One tune is not going to make a huge amount of hp over another.
With supporting mods(ic,and dp, as I really don't think the piping makes a huge diff, and the catback and intake are also pretty minimal if at all at this hp level) the lnf will make about 300wheel or so with the stock turbo.
11-30-2008, 10:23 PM
#39
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I see that the turbo is the restriction,
What I was saying is that no matter what tune you go with, hp tuners, ppc, pcmforless, etc
One tune is not going to make a huge amount of hp over another.
With supporting mods(ic,and dp, as I really don't think the piping makes a huge diff, and the catback and intake are also pretty minimal if at all at this hp level) the lnf will make about 300wheel or so with the stock turbo.
What I was saying is that no matter what tune you go with, hp tuners, ppc, pcmforless, etc
One tune is not going to make a huge amount of hp over another.
With supporting mods(ic,and dp, as I really don't think the piping makes a huge diff, and the catback and intake are also pretty minimal if at all at this hp level) the lnf will make about 300wheel or so with the stock turbo.
12-01-2008, 11:03 AM
#40
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My point is that you really won't get any substantially better gains from a person with hp tuner vs the ppc or any other tune, when the compressor wheel is the limiting factor. The engine will make only a set amt of power no matter how much you fool with it, when it can only flow so much air.
I do agree when bolt on kits are available, hp tuner will be the way to go, but with the stock turbo, part for part, you will untimately get 300 wheel hp with the stock turbo and the limited amount of upgrades now available, give or take for dynos, etc
Steve got what appears to be more hp vs the ppc on a stock car, but when he adds the ic, piping, and dp he get to 305, which is what hahn would most likely get when he would get rid of the cats on his car with his IC and piping.
I do agree when bolt on kits are available, hp tuner will be the way to go, but with the stock turbo, part for part, you will untimately get 300 wheel hp with the stock turbo and the limited amount of upgrades now available, give or take for dynos, etc
Steve got what appears to be more hp vs the ppc on a stock car, but when he adds the ic, piping, and dp he get to 305, which is what hahn would most likely get when he would get rid of the cats on his car with his IC and piping.
12-01-2008, 11:06 AM
#41
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just because the engine can only flow a max CFM with a given turbo does NOT mean you wont benefit from a dyno tune..If this were the case, no NA engine in the world would ever benefit from a dyno tune. there's alot more to tuning than just adding more boost...
12-01-2008, 11:17 AM
#42
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well if we had cams and high flow heads to put on, among other parts, even cam sprokets to fool with, then yes a dyno tune with hp tuner may prove worthy with the stock turbo, but with the stock turbo, and our only hard parts that really need to be upgraded at this hp level being the IC and removal of the cats, as the intake/catback is adequate, a person with hp tuners can only go so far, and as far as I have seen, it is about the same as anybody elses tunes.
and we are limited to a certain psi with the stock sensors also no matter who tunes it, until gm releases the 3 bar sensors, but even then the compressor will limit hp level even if you could throw more boost at it.
Its not like other cars with bigger stock turbos that are not limited to a set boost level within the computer.
I do agree the ppc is VERY limited at this point and is more expensive than a hp tune, unless you have no access to a person who knows how to use hp tuners.
and we are limited to a certain psi with the stock sensors also no matter who tunes it, until gm releases the 3 bar sensors, but even then the compressor will limit hp level even if you could throw more boost at it.
Its not like other cars with bigger stock turbos that are not limited to a set boost level within the computer.
I do agree the ppc is VERY limited at this point and is more expensive than a hp tune, unless you have no access to a person who knows how to use hp tuners.
12-01-2008, 11:35 AM
#43
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well if we had cams and high flow heads to put on, among other parts, even cam sprokets to fool with, then yes a dyno tune with hp tuner may prove worthy with the stock turbo, but with the stock turbo, and our only hard parts that really need to be upgraded at this hp level being the IC and removal of the cats, as the intake/catback is adequate, a person with hp tuners can only go so far, and as far as I have seen, it is about the same as anybody elses tunes.
and we are limited to a certain psi with the stock sensors also no matter who tunes it, until gm releases the 3 bar sensors, but even then the compressor will limit hp level even if you could throw more boost at it.
Its not like other cars with bigger stock turbos that are not limited to a set boost level within the computer.
I do agree the ppc is VERY limited at this point and is more expensive than a hp tune, unless you have no access to a person who knows how to use hp tuners.
and we are limited to a certain psi with the stock sensors also no matter who tunes it, until gm releases the 3 bar sensors, but even then the compressor will limit hp level even if you could throw more boost at it.
Its not like other cars with bigger stock turbos that are not limited to a set boost level within the computer.
I do agree the ppc is VERY limited at this point and is more expensive than a hp tune, unless you have no access to a person who knows how to use hp tuners.
12-01-2008, 11:43 AM
#44
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well if we had cams and high flow heads to put on, among other parts, even cam sprokets to fool with, then yes a dyno tune with hp tuner may prove worthy with the stock turbo, but with the stock turbo, and our only hard parts that really need to be upgraded at this hp level being the IC and removal of the cats, as the intake/catback is adequate, a person with hp tuners can only go so far, and as far as I have seen, it is about the same as anybody elses tunes.
and we are limited to a certain psi with the stock sensors also no matter who tunes it, until gm releases the 3 bar sensors, but even then the compressor will limit hp level even if you could throw more boost at it.
Its not like other cars with bigger stock turbos that are not limited to a set boost level within the computer.
I do agree the ppc is VERY limited at this point and is more expensive than a hp tune, unless you have no access to a person who knows how to use hp tuners.
and we are limited to a certain psi with the stock sensors also no matter who tunes it, until gm releases the 3 bar sensors, but even then the compressor will limit hp level even if you could throw more boost at it.
Its not like other cars with bigger stock turbos that are not limited to a set boost level within the computer.
I do agree the ppc is VERY limited at this point and is more expensive than a hp tune, unless you have no access to a person who knows how to use hp tuners.
A canned/mail order tune is only great/acceptable if tuning in your area is not possible, or the drive and cost to a location is just too much to afford.
12-01-2008, 11:45 AM
#46
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well if we had cams and high flow heads to put on, among other parts, even cam sprokets to fool with, then yes a dyno tune with hp tuner may prove worthy with the stock turbo, but with the stock turbo, and our only hard parts that really need to be upgraded at this hp level being the IC and removal of the cats, as the intake/catback is adequate, a person with hp tuners can only go so far, and as far as I have seen, it is about the same as anybody elses tunes.
and we are limited to a certain psi with the stock sensors also no matter who tunes it, until gm releases the 3 bar sensors, but even then the compressor will limit hp level even if you could throw more boost at it.
Its not like other cars with bigger stock turbos that are not limited to a set boost level within the computer.
I do agree the ppc is VERY limited at this point and is more expensive than a hp tune, unless you have no access to a person who knows how to use hp tuners.
and we are limited to a certain psi with the stock sensors also no matter who tunes it, until gm releases the 3 bar sensors, but even then the compressor will limit hp level even if you could throw more boost at it.
Its not like other cars with bigger stock turbos that are not limited to a set boost level within the computer.
I do agree the ppc is VERY limited at this point and is more expensive than a hp tune, unless you have no access to a person who knows how to use hp tuners.
12-01-2008, 11:49 AM
#47
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steve and i got tired of waiting for vendors to make a intake so we got together and made a badass intake in just a weeks time. its been on my car for 2 weeks now and driven 500 plus miles and no problems for me. the car sounds awesome. when steve gets vendor status then we can post pics and videos. until then you guys have to wait. sry
i got some on my phone but not untill steve gets vendor status
i got some on my phone but not untill steve gets vendor status
Last edited by FF_ace; 12-01-2008 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
12-01-2008, 12:23 PM
#48
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steve and i got tired of waiting for vendors to make a intake so we got together and made a badass intake in just a weeks time. its been on my car for 2 weeks now and driven 500 plus miles and no problems for me. the car sounds awesome. when steve gets vendor status then we can post pics and videos. until then you guys have to wait. sry
I'm sure you guys can post pictures and videos if you want.... I think the whole vendor status is to keep people from SELLING vs telling people about their products...
In the past, I have seen a lot of other "companies" who were posting information about their product while waiting to get vendor status... I really don't think you will have any issues... but then again, I could be wrong
Good luck with it all Steve!
-Karo
12-01-2008, 12:35 PM
#49
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Are there just two FWD LNF's making over 300whp now on stock turbo? The first one to my knowledge was Andy at ADM performance with his HHR. He made 306 on October 9th.