i think the problem lies between the gas pedal and drivers seat

 

I think I know what the deal is, but I'm not telling. I bet Area has a special mod for it though that is pretty easy to do.

 

wow what is it today keep a secret day?

 

looks like its make faces day.

 

sure is

im glad you got the memo lol

 

Humm seriously lol, its because of too much fix a flat huh?

 

Ok Zooomer, I do realize that you are trying to be friendly here which is cool but this you shouldnt have put in front of my face because I can pick this apart. What you have going on with this "ZZP fuel pump rewire" is ofc just a relay with some ring terminals and some heat shrink barrel connectors. I do understand that this is heading in the right direction to help boost up the voltage of the fuel pump since the stocker runs on 16 gauge wire but the problem lies here ---- you have interupted the circuit and "tried to help the situation out by running larger gague wire from the relay" and triggering it close to the battery hence your shortening the ground point which is a good idea but the larger gauge wire is pointless. Now I can say this since I own a mobile electronics shop and been in the 12V industry for 12 years now. Basically to make this point very short and simple this is how it works---- Lets say a guy is running a car audio amplifier and he is using 4 gauge wire from a battery under the hood per say and he runs that wire to his amp in the trunk and then decides to run a 8 gauge ground from his amp, his entire system is therefore acting as if it is only running with a 8 gauge power line. If there is 20' of length of 4 gauge and 1 foot of 8 gauge between either the 12V and ground then you mine as well just run 8 gauge throughout as it is no different. Same idea applies here with your rewire as you are still utilizing the 18 gauge wire to and from the pump. The only benefit with your rewire is just simply that you have shortened the ground point which in turn will help very little with the current draw meaning your going in the right direction but not enough. Im not trying to be a douche here but dont try arguing this point with me or you will lose . If you need help correcting this system then just ask!

 

 

I have a very solid guess, almost positive its the problem.

Think pressure!

 

U talking about a fuel pressure regulator?

 

I'll take you up on the challenge of losing the debate but I'll need to break things down into a few parts.

1. Let's set aside the debate about the design of the FP rewire for now. I will just say that you can you install it and measure a difference of over 1 volt at the fuel pump.

2. As with all debates people cite their qualifications which is a good thing. I do it, you do it. It just so happens that I owed a car audio store myself for 15 years although my knowledge in electronic predates the store. I would consider it an area of high expertise for me. But in reality our qualifications only matter to a point of proving ourselves which doesn't need to be based on that for basic engineering concepts.

3. You are absolutely incorrect and could not be more incorrect in your assertion that a circuit is only as good as the smallest point.

If you were correct, a fuse would not work. Look at the filiment in a fuse, very small yet it supports the current of a 4 ga wire.

Electricity is very different in flow properties than liquid or air. With electricity the wire thickness is based on length of wire and quality of wire. The reason is that only total resistance matters. If you ran 16' of 4 gauge wire in a car that was powering amps drawing 50 ampers at 12 volts, you would achieve the same resistance/volt drop/performance etc with 8 gauge if it were only 6.3' long.

Using your example lets say the 12 volt system is powering a amp drawing 40 amps on a bass note. You have 17' of power wire and 2.5' of ground wire. Let's look at the voltage that the amp will run at per wiring setup:

All 4 gauge wire 11.602 volts
All 8 gauge wire 10.993 volts
4 ga power, 8ga ground 11.524 volts

In fact if you did the 4ga power 8ga ground and shortened the ground to 1 foot, it would perform the same as the 4ga system. Now I don't know why you would do this over keeping it all 4 gauge but for the sake of this new debate, I think you get the point. Feel free to verify my information with any google search or by talking to an electrical engineer.

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Using your example exactly you have 20' of power and 1' of ground. With 50 amps of draw the all 8 ga system is going to have 10.644 volts left (assuming you started with 12) losing 11.3% of it's power. That's bad and would produce 68 watts of heat in the wire. If you used 4ga power and 1' of 8ga ground the same guy would be left with 11.424 volts and only 34 watts of heat in his wire. In other words the 4ga power/8ga ground flows twice what the full 8ga system would. The problem with resistance and heat is this. Copper's resistance rises .393 percent per degree C that the wire temperature goes up, making the voltage drop get even higher which in turn raises the wire temp and so on. Now I realize some of this is splitting hairs but wire can get quite warm and we're discussing applications that could run for hours.

I think it would be wise for you to take an electronics training course to better serve your customers. 12 years is a long time in a business so you are clearly invested in that field. There are a lot of online courses and even free youtube lectures that would increase your understanding of electronics exponentially. I study various new fields at least 10 hours a week and most of it I don't even have to pay for. Gotta love the net...

http://www.stealth316.com/2-wire-resistance.htm

 

zoomer's right. wire throughout a system can be viewed as a resistor. Resistance of a wire can be measured as X ohms per foot (or inch, or w/e). Using this, you can say that a thick gauge wire used throughout most of a circuit adds almost no resistance to the circuit, and that the one foot of small gauge wire adds X ohms. If you used the small gauge wire throughout the system (lets say the systemhas 12 feet of wire), then the whole system would have 12X ohms of resistance, meaning power dissipation throughout the wires would be 12 times higher. Then use V=IR and P=IV to find any other losses that are now present in the system.

i'm going into electrical engineering, so ive taken a few electronics classes (theres my qualification zoomer...lol), and am damn confident what zoomer and i are saying is correct.

 

Are you mental!!! Zooomer you say that a fuse wouldnt work????? I dont know how ******* dumb you can get. A fuse is a fuse and the way a fuse works depending on the amperage of the fuse is to protect a circuit in case of an overload of current or dead short worst case scenario. If a fuse is rated at 20 amps of current and see a spike over 50% than its limit it will pop! Plain and simple. If it sees a current draw of 21 amps or more over a continued amount of time it will pop and it goes up from there. Mabye my example was a little flawed not to say that I am incorrect but what I should have said is that if you are running a system that requires 20' of 4 gauge primary wire to handle its current draw and lets say you are short a foot so some back yard guy decides to adapt a chunk of 8 gauge wire then the system is only theoretically drawing from an 8' primary wire because the resistance has decreased down to that value. If you system needed to have 4 gauge to support the current draw and you have done this then your current draw with increase similar to that of running a 8 gauge primary line and potentially cause damage to the amplifier and most likely toast the fuse protecting the circuit.

 

jerry springer....any body....any body..

 

And also, the reason my explaination at the beginning was incorrect was simply due to the fact that I stated using 1' of 8 gauge ground vs 20' 4 gauge primary considering that the resistance values are ofc altered due to the fact that the line for ground is only 1' and 8 gauge may be suffice in this instance. A better way of explaining this would be is if somebody chose to run there primary and ground lines of equal 20' lengths and the primary was 4 gauge and the ground was 8 gauge then the system would only react as if it was running solely on 8 gauge wiring making it pointless to have run the 4 gauge to begin with. Now this I know I am correct. And just for the record Zooomer I am educated very well in my field of work and my knowledge is very good. So dont ever try to question my education again as I take great pride in what I do and I do it great. Hence the reason I have been in the industry for 12 years and self employeed for 6 years and have a very successful business that is constantly growing year to year and my customer base has grown beyond expectations. Im sure this is something ZZP couldnt honestly say. Back to your "FUEL REWIRE KIT". I will prove my point once again. Sure you are correct that you help increase the voltage with your system but its not done 100%. The only reason you are increasing your voltage is ONLY because you have increase the gauge of your ground and shortened your ground length. The proper way of building that setup for it to be done CORRECTLY would be to cut into the gray wire(primary for fuel pump) use that to trigger the 86 point on a 30amp relay and run the black wire(ground for fuel pump) to the 87 point on the relay. Then trigger the 87 point of the relay with a constant 12V line FUSED from the battery with a 20amp fuse. Then run the 30 point of the relay DIRECTLY to the fuel pump + side. On the - point of the fuel pump you would run a short length for your ground and ground to a spot in the trunk keeping the length minimal. You would use 10 gauge wiring for the constant lines and 10 gauge for the ground line. You would not need to worry about using anything larger than an 18 gauge line for your relay triggers(85+86). This way you decrease your current draw and your voltage would be stable under almost any type of load. MAKE SENSE NOW FROM THE NON-EDUCATED GUY??????????????

Oh and one revision is the fact that your fuel rewire kit has also shortened the length of the positive feed but still running off the existing 16 gauge line to the pump so you dont have to throw that one back to me.

One other thing to consider that may help you with the explaination of running a piece of 4 gauge down to a piece of 8 gauge is think of this. I have a straw that is 1/2" wide and Im pouring water through it into a cup vs a 1/4" straw---- which cup would fill up quicker??? Now take that 1/2" straw thats 3" long and attach a coupler with a piece of 1" 1/4" straw now guess what??? The cup will fill up basically in the same amount of time as it would if you were using 4" of 1/4" straw. Interesting concept isnt it? So when you hit the bottle tonight try it out, you might learn something new!!!!!!! Your welcome.

So Hunterkiller and Zooomer tell me Im wrong now.

 

regarding the bolded: the fact remains in your first post on this subject you were blatantly wrong. you said that if you run even one small section of 8 gauge wire in a 4 gauge circuit, it is effetcively like running 8 gauge wire all throughout the circuit, which could not be more wrong.

as for what you said ion the underlined section...you can do it that way too, but the way zoomer posted is a lot easier to do...
all he's doing is making the circuit more efficient, reducing power losses. What you're proposing is a lot more complex (though simple still, but most on these forums don't have any electrical background).
Both methods are correct ways to do this...idk why you suggest zoomer's method is not correct.

again, the bold and underlined section is still blatantly incorrect. flow of liquids and flow of electricity are completely different.

off i go to work...

give me some resistance values of 4gauge wire and 8 gauge wire and i will come up with a very understanbdable explanation so you can understand this better..

 

All I am saying was that it could have been done 100% correct rather than 75% especially for something that is sold to the general public from ZZP.

 

No it can't. Again you are completely incorrect. Without a superconductor every electrical circuit will have a loss. You cannot achieve 100% of your starting voltage. Our kit eliminates most of the voltage drop. That is what it is designed to do.

Could it go further? Of course, you could source from the alternator instead of the battery. You could run 4ga wire further reducing drop. Hell 00 gauge wire. You could also change the voltage reference to the alternator and increase it's output. But in designing a product you have to take many things into account. Weight (because we're trying to increase the performance of the car), cost, ease of installation, product effectiveness. Any further design and complexity to the fuel pump rewire would yield very small gains at a penalty in the other areas.

 

No it can't. Again you are completely incorrect. Without a superconductor every electrical circuit will have a loss. You cannot achieve 100% of your starting voltage. Our kit eliminates most of the voltage drop. That is what it is designed to do.

Could it go further? Of course, you could source from the alternator instead of the battery. You could run 4ga wire further reducing drop. Hell 00 gauge wire. You could also change the voltage reference to the alternator and increase it's output. But in designing a product you have to take many things into account. Weight (because we're trying to increase the performance of the car), cost, ease of installation, product effectiveness. Any further design and complexity to the fuel pump rewire would yield very small gains at a penalty in the other areas.

 

Angel- the fact that you chose this example as a comparison tells me that you don't fully grasp the advantages of the ZZP fuel pump rewire. In your example, you kept the original straw and added a larger straw to it. This would compare to leaving ALL of the original fuel pump wiring in place and also extending it a few feet with a thicker wire. If you study the fuel pump wiring, you will see that our rewire eliminates several feet of factory wire. Look at it like this- If you had a 12' long straw that was 1/4" diameter and you replaced it with a 2' long 1/4" diameter straw connected to a 4' long 1/2" diameter straw, then you will obviously fill the cup quicker. Your comments suggest that the cup will fill at the same speed, which is not correct.

Furthermore, the fact that you feel the need to explain the function of a relay to Zoom is rather silly.

 

This is what I've been referring to this entire thread. A lot of people do not have a grasp of how various things in physics work. Point above. Liquid operates completely differently than electricity but Angel and most people don't understand this. So in a thought experiment you picture the rail, like a piece of wire and think about the pressure 'running out' by the end of the rail. Liquid doesn't operate like this and if you don't grasp that, a physics class would do you some good.

Now back to Angel's example. Yes, in a liquid system if you had even 1/16" of small tube the flow would drastically change. This is why a methanol jet works. You have a large line with a lot of pressure restricted by the smallest section of the system. The jet or nozzle is a VERY short distance. But electric isn't like this. In an electrical system you can have that nozzle in place an flow nearly the same as your massive line. Why? Because fluid flow is limited by the diameter of the tube. Fluid is not compressible. 100' of 1" tube will be completely stopped by 1" of .01" tube. But in electricity the flow is based on total resistance of the system, not the 'restriction' of a piece of wire.

Now, Angel is mocking me for being 'so ******* stupid' as to not understand how a fuse works. Oh the irony... Angel, the fuse is an extension of a conductor. Look at how small the wire is inside a fuse rated at 50 amps

My point that seems to be lost on you is that this fuse according to your example would stop all the flow because it would be like having a 1/2" straw with a section of 1/100" straw. Get it?

Now clearly you would not have posted if you researched the links I gave you. And as I stated, you would do well to take some electronics courses as well as physics. You're 12 years into a business based on part in electronics and you don't understand even the most basic electrical principals and formulas. None of your responses in this thread have any math, science, forumlas or references to Ohms law, the most basic of all electrical forumlas. Furthermore it doesn't appear that you know how to use them. V = R × I I = V / R R = V / I
You NEED to get some more education. Nothing to be ashamed of, I educated nearly daily.

Finally, let's avoid the qualifications. You've been in the industry for 12 years, I owed a car audio store for 15. You've been in business for yourself for 6 years, me for 18. You're business is growing, so is mine. but you know what? None of that matters because clearly one of us is right and one is wrong. And you can doubt me. You can call me a *******, you can laugh and mock me as you've been doing and comment on how I couldn't be any dumber but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE; do not take my word for this stuff. ASK someone. go talk to an electrical engineer, ask a teacher, a professor, someone because you are walking around ignorant to your own ignorance and you're the one suffering. and maybe I'm wrong, but please just go check it out before making any more posts.

 

Zooomer, first off you are stating that you think I said something about the fuel pump rewire being 100% efficient?>?? where did you get this from? What I said was that it is 75% complete in the "right" way. Sure what you have done may have gotten your upgrade what the fuel pump needs when running at a certain level and improved the voltage issue with the pump but all I am saying is that to complete that 100% would be running the 10gauge line directly from the relay to the fuel pump instead of taping into the existing 16 gauge. You, Matt and that other dude there commenting about this siding with you are missing what I am saying totally. You keep refering to a mistake I made in my post and you are trying to pick apart many things that have nothing to do with what I am explaining. I never said that your system doesnt work, I just stated the simple fact that when I upgraded my lines I ran a 10gauge line directly to the fuel pump. Was it necessary for me to do so? Mabye/Mabye not but the reason I did that was to do things correctly. I dont half ass anything, when I do it I do it right the first time so I have no issues down the road. Im not that type of person. As far as you picking apart my expertiece and knowledge, that is just a waste of time. Sure my vocab with the physics of all of this might not be at your extreme level but what matters the most and you can agree with this is actual hands on ****. If you placed myself beside some physics mathmatician guru who knows everything there is to know about the formulas ect.. doesnt mean **** if he has no idea how to run a business and install product. I do get it per say and I understand this and I am good at what I do. As far as the straw example, I know that electricity is somewhat different than that of water running through a straw but the pricinple remains that I was discussing current issues which DO apply with the electronics end. If you run something specific that draws X amount of power to run and if you have a specific size wire, lets say 4 gauge and then try it running 8 gauge ofc the 8 gauge wire will draw twice the current. This is all I am going to say. We both know how current works and so on and this is turning into a ridiculous pissing war that is completely unnecessary. I do admit I have said things that were ignorant and so on but I do know my **** when it comes to the 12v electronics industry and because I found it more correct to boost my fuel pumps wiring and install it a step further than your kit you sells does you seem to find offence to that. You do have too much pride to every admitt that plain and simple the reason you sell the kit the way it is, is because you feel that it provides enough of a boost that there isnt any need to take it the extra step further. There is nothing wrong with this all I was saying was I took it the step further because in my eyes that is doing this correctly and thats it. Do you understand now? Or are you going to find things here to pick apart again? One last thing, in this industry anybody successful does educate themselves further everyday as I do because the industry is constantly changing and in order to keep up to par it is a necesity to do so. Anyhow, thats it.

 

Yes, you stated exactly that. You said, "the larger gauge wire is pointless." and you also stated that we could just run the smaller wire throughout and it would be no different than having only a short section of the small wire. Those statements suggest that the rewire kit does not provide gains, when in fact it does.

As far as you taking your rewire further, that's great. If you want to spend the time to drop the tank and eliminate even more(or all) of the smaller diameter wire, then go for it. For most people, that isn't the best choice.

 

Matt, cmon now. I never once said that your kit doesnt work in any way. In my opinion I believe that its just not doing it the "complete" way as I did. As far as myself saying that the larger gauge wire is pointless, I was correct by saying that because I was specifically speaking of the wire from your relay that sends the 12v signal to the pump. You guys tie into the factory 16 gauge wire so the wire from your relay mine as well be 16 gauge at that point. That is no big deal ofc if your not running a larger gauge directly to the pump but if you sell thousands then with the price of copper the way it is it could save you a few buck.lol. I also NEVER said that your kit doesnt provide gains, hell I think I even went as far as saying that I knew your kit does provide gains but IMO taking it that extra step is well worth it and to the serious moder out there I dont think that the minor hassle of dropping the tank is much of an inconvenience hence the reason IMO I say its not complete. NOT THAT IT DOESNT WORK AND PROVIDE GAINS BECAUSE I AGREE WITH YOU AND IM NOT AN IDIOT. OF COURSE YOUR KIT WILL PROVIDE SOME GAINS BUT MORE IT TO BE HAD GOING THAT EXTRA MILE. **** MABYE YOU SHOULD READ WHAT I WRITE AND NOT SKIM OVER IT BEFORE WRITING COMMENTS LIKE THIS BECAUSE IT ONLY MAKES YOU LOOK SILLY TO THE NEXT PERSON WHO READS THROUGH THIS DONT YOU THINK?

 

this was supposed to be posted earlier today, but the server started acting up, and i had to leave for work. its a response to post 192:

but thats not what you were saying. you were trying to say that electricity flows the same as water, and that what zoomer was doing would have no effect because there is still a smaller gauge section left in the system. This was completely incorrect. also, its not being done 75% still, your method and zoomers method are both 100% complete methods of raising the voltage to the fuel pump. Zoomer's is just easier to wire for those that don't know what they're doing. Ease of installation is very important given that most people here dont even own a soldering iron.

Lets drop this topic if we can all agree on a couple points, which we should be able to

#1 flow of current and flow of liquid are not the same. using 8' of 8 gauge wire and using 1' of 8 gauge wire with 1' of 4 gauge wire are NOT the same thing, and the system using 4 gauge wire will show less of a current drop than the system without it, because, unlike water, electric circuits are NOT restricted by their smallest point

#2 Zoomer's method does indeed raise the voltage seen by the fuel pump.

#3 Angel's method also raises the voltage seen by the fuel pump

#4 Angel's method requires more work to be done, but will probably result in a slightly higher voltage at the pump.

#5 they are both complete methods to achieve the desired end result: increasing fuel pump pressure

#6 they both work fine, and you can use whichever you want, as long as ou know the trade-offs of each system

now this is IMO, but i think ZZP's method is the better choice SOLELY because, as i stated earlier, it is much easier to install, and since most of the people who will be installing this kit dont have any electronics background, ease of installation is VERY important for ZZP's target market. Angel, you doing it the way you suggested is great, but a LARGE percentage of this forum dont even know how a relay works, or what one is, and would get confused by the wiring. Knowing this, ZZP made a product that anyone should be able to install with ease.

Are we all happy now?

also matt, in post 192 you imply that fluids and current have the same flow characteristics, and that angel was wrong in his example because he didnt mention that the system was shorter, and you implied if the overall section of straw was shorter, he would see gains. this is not true (assuming you're excluding minute losses due to friction), and he was incorrect because current flows on completely different principles. You then however state this in post 195, so maybe you just interchanged some key words in post 192 to make it incorrect? not a big deal, just wanted clarification for anyone else following this thread