tobz

I severely doubt the flow in the intake manifold is laminar enough to make changes in EGTs that can be consistently logged.

I'm glad that Witt sorta brought this back to theory, but again the theory isn't really matching up.

I'm not sure what you meant by "velocity." It's better to actually use the terms flow and pressure, since they are widely known and unmistakable. Flow will change with pump head pressure. Since you're reducing the effective tubing length, there should be less pressure. Flow should stay the same or increase, in this case.

Secondly, as the liquid flows through the system, it's not always laminar. There are turns and walls and cavities, so it's going to mix around and such. This sort of breaks the whole section on "unevenly cooled" air charges.

I'd ask that anybody who thinks any of the is wrong to actually provide HARD (read: formulas or empirical data.) evidence. I'm not saying that I'm right, but saying I'm wrong requires burden of proof. That should go for anything said here. Empirical data trumps guesses and estimations. Of course, like Witt said, there can also be hidden changes we don't see, so keep that in mind.

Good discussion thus far. Didn't expect a 3-pager.

Witt

On the smallest cores that Opcon produces they recommend no less than 10L/min flow per core when setup single side in and single out for not only this reason but also for laminova thermal efficiency. You would need to have double the capacity of the stock pump to be above their min. recommendation.

qwikredline

at the end of the day single pass works...I cannot tell you what our coolant flow rate is, but as Tobz has said correctly the cooled air distribution is just fine, which was your challenge, as you believe it affects egt and can cause issues. So not to be rude, but why make it more complicated than it is? cooler inlet air is better. Single pass cools better than dual pass or stock 4 pass.

inlet air flow is 200 grams per second on an lsj and an individual cylinder inlet air charge is sucked in every 720 degrees of crank rotation . As you say, porting the laminova slots in the manifold is not value added, and in my view not worth the expense; single pass is well worth it. 2 pumps would be even better but has not proven necessary in our testing and racing .

tobz

Think of the intercooler system as a 50 inch long loop of tubing. The laminovas are, say, 5 inches long. In stock configuration, the intercooler represents 20 inches of tubing. With the single pass, you now have a system that is 35 inches long, overall. That's a 30% reduction in length. Length will be acting on the head pressure at the pump, which will affect flow. Flow should actually increase with this configuration. It's still encountering the same friction in the laminova cores, maybe a little bit more trying to get into the core tubing at the first place. (flanged inputs, anyone?) You're reducing the length of the system, though, which *will* have a direct effect on pumping performance.

ralliartist

good point tobz.

Omnigear

iTrader: (4)

numbers and real world applications can vary like altitude and temperatures. rali is in one part of the world and it works for him but does that make the next man who lives else where work the same way?

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

okay...lets all just agree on this. the single pass is a BIG improvement, however it is not perfect! if you want it to be perfect, you will get a higher flowing IC pump to go along with it.

ralliartist

I'm in Omaha, NE and qwikredline running the SAME EXACT design is in ontario(?) canada.

It works no matter where you are.

Witt

Its flow per core that takes the hit. As I mentioned before you split the flow through the cores in half compared to a dual pass. Where in a dual pass on a 5gpm stock pump you passing coolant through the cores at ~9.5L/min on a single you halve that number. On a stock setup it sees the full 19L/min but of the same coolant. This leads to hotter temps that a dual pass takes care of while still maintaining close to what Opcon recommends for min. flow per core for maximum efficiency.
I agree.

tobz

Atmospheric pressure or temperature doesn't affect the intercooler system. It's a closed-loop system. Atmospheric pressure could affect boost pressure, though, and temperature could affect intercooler efficiency, both of which would affect power and make the the single, dual, and quad (stock) pass manifolds work better or worse.

The pump is rated for a given flow at a given pressure. It has a flow curve, and head pressure will directly affect flow. (I might be wrong, pretty sure this is what I was reading just the other day..)

By going from 4 cores in series, to 4 cores in parallel, you are *reducing* the head pressure. This will increase flow. The flow in the "chamber", or the sum of the core volume for the four laminovas cores, will be lower than a typical quad pass setup. This is offset by reduced head pressure, though.

Will it be the most optimal? No. Is it a step back? No.

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

what witt is saying is the lowered resistance will indeed increase flow across the whole system, lets say to 20L/min just to pick a number. this is an improvement over the stock 19L/min. HOWEVER, he is bringing up the point that while 20L/min will be flowing in the system, since you have 4 parallel flowing laminovas, the flow withh split 4 ways and each laminova will individually only flow 5L/min, until these 4 channels combine again on the outlet side of the manifold. He is stating that opticon requires higher flow rates PER LAMINOVA to maintain an optimal setting.

i hope you understand now.

Just buy an aftermarket IC pump that flows 2x as much

Speedytec

iTrader: (3)

Correct with the pump curve. Our centrifugal waterpump has higher flow with decreased head pressure. In a system, this pump curve intersects with the "system curve" at it's "working point".
System curve=> Pressure rises with increased flow. Reduce the resistance in the system (1-pass) and this system curve will change, resulting in a new working point on our pump curve...

Comparing a 2-pass to a 1-pass system charge cooler is tricky, as (the resistance of) all other components in the system will influence the effect. But in the end it all comes down to in-and outlet temperatures of the cooler's coolant (coolant outlet temp close to air temp = BAD), and total coolant volume flow. (More flow = GOOD)

Omnigear

iTrader: (4)

thank yoi for the reply, that's all I wanted to know.

ralliartist

Good info in this thread. I think this was a successful thread.

qwikredline

here is a summary of another post. like you say, more flow less temp= good
Originally Posted by Mikeyredline
Since it is a closed system, the thermodynmic properties of the fluid do not change. No matter how much pressure or how fast you move it. There seems to be this impression if you circilate it faster it will dissipate heat faster. Not true, in fact it is much more about volume than flow. What changed it the ability to ADD HEAT, or TAKE HEAT OUT. Simple as that. In a perfect world, you would be able to dissiapate the heat 100% before sending it back in, but it ain't happenin. In fact, the faster you circulate the coolent, the WORSE off you are because you better have one hell of a way of cooling it quick. Like everything else its a careful balance.

Reply

Ok thanks Mikey, a careful balance needed is 100% true. A couple of issues to add after talking to my two experts (their names cannot be revealed : 1. the air flow here is something like 200 + grams /second, and the engine every 720 degrees is sucking inlet air into a cylinder, and the inlet air is taking its roundabout route losing heat, before it gets sucked in, and this means that the differential of charge air density that Witt is concerned about is not an issue...just reduce the heat bubba!
2. due to heat build up from the supercharger as the inlet air is pressurized, the air is not uniformly hot when it passes over the laminova cores, so if you think about it, the hottest air is passing over the coolest part of the laminova core, and soon.

Of course, you should know that the elves up here are thinking all the time. Tim says that there are further iterations that up here we have not even addressed, he calls them versions 9 and 10, like 2 pumps in series, or two pumps per pair of cores, because it doesnt matter.

At the end of the day simply reducing inlet air temp with the single pass is enough. It works. One pump. It works.

The egt is a non issue. But I will still measure it ,for witt, sometime soon. LSJ Inlet port thermocouple data shows the temp to be pretty darn even.

As for fuel distribution lets not confuse the laminova story with fuel issues. There may be issues at the lower end of the rev band, but my guess is that does not impact single pass charge air cooling. But if you want to improve the fuel system OTTP have an excellent fuel system mod that will help you that is very well priced.

AT LAST:
I am sure Ralliartist who is so pleased with his results, wanted everyone to share the wealth of his experience he is just that sort of go-ahead guy. But we all have to make a buck, I make it selling this single pass stuff, and the time for discussion for me at least is done. There are many ways to improve the LSJ and some are pretty neat, but at the end of the day the LNF shows much greater gains. For us poor folk who cant pony up the bucks for an LNF, LSJ will do. The better it runs the happier we will be. Ralli good job!

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

Just to throw it out there....i found a great replacement pump that flows a pretty good amount


http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

This pump is rated at 20 gallons per minute.
For comaprison, our stock pump is rated at 6 gallons per minute

tobz

I would agree. Effective flow through a single laminova core will decrease when you start running them in a more parallel configuration. How much we offset this by reducing head pressure, I couldn't say. The empirical data is there, though.

Great thread!

ralliartist

great find! That's definitely something to look into. At 200 bucks though, I'm going to wait it out. My set up works great right now.

qwikredline

hey ralli go nuts http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo13.html

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

none of those pumps are really that good except the jabsco pump. However, it is stated on that page that that jabsco pump is no longer created.

ralliartist

My god! I'm in heaven.

domin8_gt

iTrader: (1)

This is probably the most intellectual thread on css.net.

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

^^ they happen every month or so...lol

tobz

Haha, glad I could be the spark.

I like the looks of the Meziere pump - solid construction (I've had plastic pumps explode during shifts - yes, multiple pumps.) and high flow. Would like to see the flow curve, but still looks good at first glance.

I also looked at mez.co.uk - a lot of useful information there.

qwikredline

Hey Tobz ! thats" glad you could be the sparkz"