Originally Posted by Zooomer

The ZZP manifold (version 2) is pretty much the best value out there. We made 465WHP with it, which is more than any other manifold out there. With a recently lowered price, you won't find better.

http://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_...=867&catid=155

Originally Posted by lsjwannabe

Then you call the kit unreliable and more or less a waste of money. You ever heard of a problem with our
kit? I haven't please do tell if you did though.

wow just wow.

Originally Posted by lsjwannabe

Ok so to some up the thread you call our kit junk and a waste of money/time

I post up info thats supposedly misleading or hiding something, becuase its not like its a widely know fact that the kit comes with the fpr as seen on the site.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Easy. I didn't mean your kit is junk, I have never seen it. From the pics it seems nice.

What I am saying is that a return style fuel system isn't needed for any reason that I have seen to date in this market. If you make a return system, then that would include your kit as well. That doesn't mean it's bad, I am just saying it's totally un needed.

By misleading I'm saying that you are using the fact that you changed fuel pressure to sell a return style system. This implies that you need this system to do what you did. It would be like me selling a billet rail to run some custom larger injector and posting up dynos showing I cured the lean problem with running a 2.8" pulley. Then someone else saying "the billet fuel log is not needed and the dyno graphs are misleading because you can buy 60# injectors to replace your stock ones and do the same thing" Get it? You're using the fact that you changed fuel pressure to sell a return style fuel system when the two aren't really related. Now I have no problem with you selling the part but don't get on the boards and tell people that it is needed in applications where it isn't. It confuses people and makes them less knowledgeable about the cars.

In terms of reliability, anything you do to mod your car makes it less reliable. Especially fuel related things like Walbro pumps. They are probably 100x less reliable than OEM pumps. Some people need more flow and the risk/cost is worth it but if you already have a pump that better it's not a very good buy. Since vendors are usually the only ones to flow test pumps, our responsibility to provide consumers with accurate information is greater.

Originally Posted by 06blackg85ss

and seriously zzp guys, you're not helping your cause with some of your posts, you're just digging a deeper deeper hole with the people that could actually help your business

Originally Posted by sleeperbalt

So zoomer you are running the FPR in the line at the fuel filter that returns it back to the tank an getting rid of the check ball?

If so?
Thats perfect! Its simple and will work great! so just run a vac/boost line back to the tank?

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Similar to that, yes. You don't even need to run a vac line, you can use the EVAP. Crazy easy.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

I don't know what you believe our 'cause' is or how you could know much about our business but I can assure you that my primary goal is turning this market from a lot of ignorance to some good knowledge. When we're out running 12's with basic mods and 11's with our turbo kits people are going to want to know what they are doing wrong or we are doing right. I'm merely giving our facts and trying to educate people on some things, albiet I'm not very good at it.


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Originally Posted by 06blackg85ss

well what I believe is my own business. and as for your "proof" of your claims, you still haven't provided any solid proof (dyno sheet, yeah, but no temp, correction factor, or smoothing shown, dyno pull that doesn't show a full pull nor the dyno screen) I'm not saying your a lier, I'm just saying prove your not. By saying "cause I said so" like I've seen you post, well, that just doesn't cut it for me, and a lot of others. Now I never claim to be a know all end all LSJ expert. but I've been around the block when it comes to cars, and I know what these motors are capable of and what they are not.
now I'm used to dealing with skeptics on here, so when I post up my info, I put everything out in the open unlike some other people on here, which of course is there own business. People wanted different dyno's I geve em that, people wanted full dyno sheets, I gave them that, people wanted video I gave them that too. I don't even run a car business, I just do this for fun. I work 2 jobs and 70-80 hrs a week, still work on my own car, and every other damn cobalt in pretty much NY and I still have the time to put that stuff up.
I'm all about making these cars faster and bringing them out from under this ricer shell people have put them in.

I dunno, I'm tired and rambling now, so I'm done.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

You can't make 486WHP on a stock FP unless you raise fuel pump voltage which is what I stated previously. Furthermore the stock pump at stock voltage cannot supply enough fuel to max 79# injectors so the system isn't matched.

On the 465WHP, we did it with our smaller turbo full exhaust. We dropped the exhaust and were setup to make over 500WHP but the clutch didn't hold. We'll surpass 500WHP easliy with our twin charged kit shortly. In terms of your mathematically impossible I have a few comments:

1. We already did it and will make much more. How is your math going to show me that what we did, didn't happen? It was repeatable.

2. Please post your math here so I can debunk it for you and everyone else here and we can move on.

3. ZZP has been doing things we were told is 'impossible' for years. This is no different and we'll be at track running the times to back the dynos when the weather warms up. I hope your impressed and spend as much time praising the acomplishments as you have posted calling us out.



We cannot guarantee the fitment of turbos we haven't used on your car. It's not possible to test every turbo because there are too many different housings and configurations. I'm not concerned about you 'breaking' the 465WHP mark. I don't consider it that much of an achievement. We did it with about 1 month of work so I expect it to be surpassed easily. I wasn't trying to challenge you, I was posting because I hear every day about people's 'plans' and they aren't realistic. Maybe you're different.
You also mentioned that you were going for over 500, so our 465 wasn't impressive. Maybe true but the other manifolds have not proved themselves at these levels. I was only posted to show that we're making good HP.


Depends on the year of Cobalt but that is correct. That's how this market is though. Rumors and myths run rampant. We're hearing about stock fuel pumps making nearly 500WHP at stock voltage, then other people are downgrading to Walbros and thinking they are 'modifying' their cars. Other people are excited about this return style fuel system and people have no clue. You don't need that. It's extra crap. Most people don't even know how the stock fuel system works or why it's pointless to run a return style setup. Used to be that 60# injectors made the #4 piston lean (no knowledge of fluid pressure laws), now 60's are the norm. Some posted that the stock IC core was restricting the TVS, no mention that people were making over 100WHP more than that through this core. Then we read that the stock intake manifold doesn't distribute air evenly, no testing or evidence, just rumor. Later we read that cams only make 5HP on cobalts with dyno charts to "prove" it. Posts about spraying water or windshield washer fluid in your engine are daily, probably millions spent on this with no gains. People just don't understand, yet they back it like their sister's honor and won't take ZZP up on our $1000 water injection challenge. It's a full time job debunking the bad information around here...

The fuel pump doesn't determine fuel pressure, you should have called us to explain the fuel system to you and save you the downgrade and cost of buying the Walbro.

Originally Posted by fast98

Just a few thougths off the top of my head. Zoomer your pump info is innacurate/misleading. You talk alot about pump voltage but don't post any specs on what the voltage was during your test...

Here is some good pump info on the walbro's, and you can see that they flow differently then what you listed.





All of this talk about walbros being a bad pump is bs. Walbro has gotten a bad rap from all of the copy cats from china, you just have to make sure you have an official pump. Walbro actually makes oem pumps for alot of cars, C5 vettes come to mind.


Next you talk all about pressure but not so much about flow... The return style system is designed to flow more fuel to the rail while giving the user full control over fuel pressure right under the hood. It's a hard system to beat for the money.

Originally Posted by Area47

when going above 17.6 psi of pressure, the lsj ecm runs off the last cell on that map before it, more or less runs off the scale. maf does this, as well as the timing table. you are only seeing a portion of the facts when you open up the hpt files on an lsj.

this is what happens you when you outrun the tables with air flow. this was proven long ago. you "should" have seen this with your basic twincharge pulls on the rollers. i see this everyday i run the engine up to 8k rpms in the timing table. psi is irrelevant.



http://www.kinsler.com/Cat_32_Pgs/Ca...l_Pump_Pgs.pdf

Originally Posted by WSFrazier

Question for you guys ZZP...

You keep saying you did 700whp+ on stock bottom end on a 3800, what was done to the top end of the motor?

I am assuming top end work was done, since you keep saying stock bottom end and not motor.

Originally Posted by fast98

All of this talk about walbros being a bad pump is bs. Walbro has gotten a bad rap from all of the copy cats from china, you just have to make sure you have an official pump. Walbro actually makes oem pumps for alot of cars, C5 vettes come to mind.

Originally Posted by WickedSS2005

I needed a good read. Thanks all. I'm out

Originally Posted by fast98

Just a few thougths off the top of my head. Zoomer your pump info is innacurate/misleading. You talk alot about pump voltage but don't post any specs on what the voltage was during your test...

Originally Posted by Matt M

Where do you come up with the idea that it is innaccurate/misleading? FWIW, we ran 18 volts to support 465whp with the stock pump, but it doesn't make any difference what the voltage was as long as it was high enough to maintain the correct fuel pressure. 17 volts would have worked just as well as 20 volts. Of course you can't run too much voltage without risk of damaging the pump, but that is a completely different issue.

Originally Posted by Area47

when going above 17.6 psi of pressure, the lsj ecm runs off the last cell on that map before it, more or less runs off the scale. maf does this, as well as the timing table. you are only seeing a portion of the facts when you open up the hpt files on an lsj.

this is what happens you when you outrun the tables with air flow. this was proven long ago. you "should" have seen this with your basic twincharge pulls on the rollers. i see this everyday i run the engine up to 8k rpms in the timing table. psi is irrelevant.