Eaton M62, Magnuson MP62, max safe blower speed ...
12-21-2005, 08:00 PM
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Eaton M62, Magnuson MP62, max safe blower speed ...
Can someone tell me what's are the differences between both :
http://magnusonproducts.com/mp62.htm
http://www.automotive.eaton.com/prod...argers/M62.asp
Look the Magnuson, max speed of 16000 RPM's.
http://magnusonproducts.com/mp62.htm
http://www.automotive.eaton.com/prod...argers/M62.asp
Look the Magnuson, max speed of 16000 RPM's.
12-21-2005, 11:53 PM
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Takes less power to turn as well. That may just be the differences in the graphs. Sweet nice find!!
Longer snout on the MP62??? or can you get different lengths?
Longer snout on the MP62??? or can you get different lengths?
12-22-2005, 12:34 PM
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There's more to this than just blower speed...
The new blowers on these LSJ engines are built with extremely tight tolerances. So tight that with excessive boost/heat, they blower rotors can actually seize against the blower housing.
We haven't yet seen or reached this point in our testing, but we are being warned in advance (by people who know) that anything at or above 18 psi of boost is definitely in the danger zone.
Anyone who goes below the 2.80" supercharger pulley size needs to understand that this is a serious risk. Rest assured that we're already working on solutions to this issue though...
The new blowers on these LSJ engines are built with extremely tight tolerances. So tight that with excessive boost/heat, they blower rotors can actually seize against the blower housing.
We haven't yet seen or reached this point in our testing, but we are being warned in advance (by people who know) that anything at or above 18 psi of boost is definitely in the danger zone.
Anyone who goes below the 2.80" supercharger pulley size needs to understand that this is a serious risk. Rest assured that we're already working on solutions to this issue though...
12-28-2005, 02:59 AM
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On the M62, you're looking at maxing out your efficiency between 15 to 20 PSI. Yeah, it may have been tested higher and there may be people getting to about 19PSI but you need to realise what you doing.
With that high boost on an M62 it starts to heat up and therefore you start to pump hotter air into you engine. At that point your temp efficiency of the SC goes out the window (so to speak). You need colder air going into the engine and without cooling off the air properly, you will acctually start to see a loss with the more boost you try to get out of the SC.
The air would need to be cooled BEFORE the SC, not AFTER.
These SC are made with modifications to fit whatever car they are put into. Although different cars all might use the same model SC, they are not all direct bolt on swaps.
With that high boost on an M62 it starts to heat up and therefore you start to pump hotter air into you engine. At that point your temp efficiency of the SC goes out the window (so to speak). You need colder air going into the engine and without cooling off the air properly, you will acctually start to see a loss with the more boost you try to get out of the SC.
The air would need to be cooled BEFORE the SC, not AFTER.
These SC are made with modifications to fit whatever car they are put into. Although different cars all might use the same model SC, they are not all direct bolt on swaps.
12-28-2005, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Tripy
On the M62, you're looking at maxing out your efficiency between 15 to 20 PSI. Yeah, it may have been tested higher and there may be people getting to about 19PSI but you need to realise what you doing.
With that high boost on an M62 it starts to heat up and therefore you start to pump hotter air into you engine. At that point your temp efficiency of the SC goes out the window (so to speak). You need colder air going into the engine and without cooling off the air properly, you will acctually start to see a loss with the more boost you try to get out of the SC.
The air would need to be cooled BEFORE the SC, not AFTER.
These SC are made with modifications to fit whatever car they are put into. Although different cars all might use the same model SC, they are not all direct bolt on swaps.
With that high boost on an M62 it starts to heat up and therefore you start to pump hotter air into you engine. At that point your temp efficiency of the SC goes out the window (so to speak). You need colder air going into the engine and without cooling off the air properly, you will acctually start to see a loss with the more boost you try to get out of the SC.
The air would need to be cooled BEFORE the SC, not AFTER.
These SC are made with modifications to fit whatever car they are put into. Although different cars all might use the same model SC, they are not all direct bolt on swaps.
No matter what the air needs to be cooled after the supercharger, its pointless to cool already cool air. The charged ot pressurized air after the supercharger is hot so that does need to be cooled. The stock heat exchanger is very efficient at cooling the air so there is not a huge issue with hot air going into the engine. Even on a warm day the intake air might only be 130* F on mine and in the 80's on a cooler day.
12-28-2005, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Chevypowered
No matter what the air needs to be cooled after the supercharger, its pointless to cool already cool air. The charged ot pressurized air after the supercharger is hot so that does need to be cooled. The stock heat exchanger is very efficient at cooling the air so there is not a huge issue with hot air going into the engine. Even on a warm day the intake air might only be 130* F on mine and in the 80's on a cooler day.
The air coming out AFTER the charger is hotter then when it entered. The stock heat exchanger is decently designed for what the SS/SC has. You guys are running at about 12.5 psi or so. Going between 15 and 18 PSI will creat hotter air after the SC and the stock heat exchanger can only do so much.
There's no point is cooling the hot air that comes out from the SC based on where it's placed on the engine. There isn't enough time for the charged air to cool once it is dispenced into the engine.
Cooling the air BEFORE increases power and it's been proven in both centrifugal and roots type chargers. You can see an increase of roughly 1% for every 10 degrees. There's a lot more to roots charges then what's been explained and we can go more into it if that'll help explain it better.
Take a look around at setups on other charged cars (not cobalts) and you can see that the air is almost alway cooled prior to entering the SC. On roots types, there are people that use alchohal injection kits at the throttle bodies, which is BEFORE the air enters the SC.
Take your SC to roughly 20 PSI and see what temps you get. The stock 12.5 setting or so will not have that SC running really hot but once you start to see big number you need to take into effect how much heat the SC is producing in addition to the hot air entering it. Cool the air before it gets to the SC and you start to run more efficiently.
12-28-2005, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tripy
The air coming out AFTER the charger is hotter then when it entered. The stock heat exchanger is decently designed for what the SS/SC has. You guys are running at about 12.5 psi or so. Going between 15 and 18 PSI will creat hotter air after the SC and the stock heat exchanger can only do so much.
There's no point is cooling the hot air that comes out from the SC based on where it's placed on the engine. There isn't enough time for the charged air to cool once it is dispenced into the engine.
Cooling the air BEFORE increases power and it's been proven in both centrifugal and roots type chargers. You can see an increase of roughly 1% for every 10 degrees. There's a lot more to roots charges then what's been explained and we can go more into it if that'll help explain it better.
Take a look around at setups on other charged cars (not cobalts) and you can see that the air is almost alway cooled prior to entering the SC. On roots types, there are people that use alchohal injection kits at the throttle bodies, which is BEFORE the air enters the SC.
Take your SC to roughly 20 PSI and see what temps you get. The stock 12.5 setting or so will not have that SC running really hot but once you start to see big number you need to take into effect how much heat the SC is producing in addition to the hot air entering it. Cool the air before it gets to the SC and you start to run more efficiently.
There's no point is cooling the hot air that comes out from the SC based on where it's placed on the engine. There isn't enough time for the charged air to cool once it is dispenced into the engine.
Cooling the air BEFORE increases power and it's been proven in both centrifugal and roots type chargers. You can see an increase of roughly 1% for every 10 degrees. There's a lot more to roots charges then what's been explained and we can go more into it if that'll help explain it better.
Take a look around at setups on other charged cars (not cobalts) and you can see that the air is almost alway cooled prior to entering the SC. On roots types, there are people that use alchohal injection kits at the throttle bodies, which is BEFORE the air enters the SC.
Take your SC to roughly 20 PSI and see what temps you get. The stock 12.5 setting or so will not have that SC running really hot but once you start to see big number you need to take into effect how much heat the SC is producing in addition to the hot air entering it. Cool the air before it gets to the SC and you start to run more efficiently.
I know its hotter after the S/C I just said that. And since its hot its better to cool it then and there is plenty of room to do that. GM should be coming out with a more efficient heat exchanger in the spring that uses a 2-3 pass system to allow for better cooling.
The stock air box is a cold air intake; its just a little restrictive. It pulls air from outside the engine bay where it is already cool or at least the same temp as the air outside. You can not cool it anymore before the S/C.
Sure some people are using water/alk. injection before but it does that same if it is sprayed after, there just no adapter plates out to make that possible. And I don't really think its a good idea to be spraying it on the moving parts of the S/C anyways.
There's really no way to efficiently cool the air before the S/C enough to make a difference other that water/alk. spray but that would be better if it was done afterwards.
12-28-2005, 06:53 PM
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^that issue has already been tooled with, the stock heat exchanger ("aftercooler") is more than enough (for now) to cool the air coming out of the charger and entering the engine...alot of people still dont understand that our cooler is under the supercharger...
cooling it before would be good yes, but that is not needed right now...
back on subject...
isnt the mp62 the one that comptech uses on the rsx's?? i cant remember
cooling it before would be good yes, but that is not needed right now...
back on subject...
isnt the mp62 the one that comptech uses on the rsx's?? i cant remember
12-29-2005, 05:12 AM
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I'm familiar with that kind of setup on these cars. I beleive Alpine Developments uses the same method on one of their superchargers.
Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying the aftercooler you guys have is inefficient. IT'll do it's job at what you got. I'm just saying that Roots chargers are known for being inefficient at high boost levels without proper cooling. It robs power to make power and at high boost levels you start to lose more as you pump hotter air into the engine.
Air can get trapped in the SC housing in pockets. When you keep that air in there for a while it gets hotter and hotter. After it gets pushed into the engine you're pumping hotter air than what you had in addition to the hot air that's there. It's known that some of the combustion gasses don't all get pushed out and therefore you end up compresing the hot air from the SC in addition to the combustion (?) that gets trapped back into the engine.
The stock after cooler isn't enough to address the high boost levels that some are looking for. We'll just have to wait and see for somebody to acctually start taking the temps at these boost levels. Afterwords, I'm sure improvments can be made to the aftercooler to make it cool more efficiently.
One question I have: Does the aftercooler loop into itself? In other words, yours is air to water. Does it loop the cool water into the SC and then back out like a U or in one way and out the other?
Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying the aftercooler you guys have is inefficient. IT'll do it's job at what you got. I'm just saying that Roots chargers are known for being inefficient at high boost levels without proper cooling. It robs power to make power and at high boost levels you start to lose more as you pump hotter air into the engine.
Air can get trapped in the SC housing in pockets. When you keep that air in there for a while it gets hotter and hotter. After it gets pushed into the engine you're pumping hotter air than what you had in addition to the hot air that's there. It's known that some of the combustion gasses don't all get pushed out and therefore you end up compresing the hot air from the SC in addition to the combustion (?) that gets trapped back into the engine.
The stock after cooler isn't enough to address the high boost levels that some are looking for. We'll just have to wait and see for somebody to acctually start taking the temps at these boost levels. Afterwords, I'm sure improvments can be made to the aftercooler to make it cool more efficiently.
One question I have: Does the aftercooler loop into itself? In other words, yours is air to water. Does it loop the cool water into the SC and then back out like a U or in one way and out the other?
01-01-2006, 09:31 PM
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what i heard> check me if i am wrong> a small mist of alc/water which will decrease the air temp.. before the mass air flow sensor.. this sends our engines into cold start meaning the computer starts runnin rich>>> i mean you cool down your intake charge and run a little richer at high boost>>>>>????? 
03-24-2006, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MARZ
what i heard> check me if i am wrong> a small mist of alc/water which will decrease the air temp.. before the mass air flow sensor.. this sends our engines into cold start meaning the computer starts runnin rich>>> i mean you cool down your intake charge and run a little richer at high boost>>>>>?????
. We could benefit from alcohol injection right now on a completely stock engine , "if" we could control our timing curve thru tuning software . I am definately gonna at least play around with that when I have the ability to tune the pcm , Ive seen gains of up to 85 hp on both centrifugal , roots , and turbocharged LS1 engines just by virtue of the cooler air charge allows you to run more timing . I ultimately agree with Chevypowered though , and would hope something like a 3 pass laminova would eliminate the need for alk/meth or a small N20 hit to keep air temps down .
Another thing I wanna try with the Cobalt , is getting rid of the conventional dexcool and running Evans Propylene Glycol . Im gonna call them at some point in the next couple weeks , and see if their at all familiar with the LSJ engine or at least our water pump . The glycol works at 0 pressure . Again unless your having a problem with detonation right now , your prolly not gonna benefit powerwise from the glycol coolant without tuning . A couple friends with 600 plus rwhp blown F-bodies benefited greated from the Evans coolant , because of the glycols WAY superior ability to pull heat out of the alumium over conventional coolant or dexcool . It'd not only benefit the heat exchangers effeciency , but also the entire engine .
04-30-2006, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Bad GTP
There's more to this than just blower speed...
The new blowers on these LSJ engines are built with extremely tight tolerances. So tight that with excessive boost/heat, they blower rotors can actually seize against the blower housing.
We haven't yet seen or reached this point in our testing, but we are being warned in advance (by people who know) that anything at or above 18 psi of boost is definitely in the danger zone.
Anyone who goes below the 2.80" supercharger pulley size needs to understand that this is a serious risk. Rest assured that we're already working on solutions to this issue though...
The new blowers on these LSJ engines are built with extremely tight tolerances. So tight that with excessive boost/heat, they blower rotors can actually seize against the blower housing.
We haven't yet seen or reached this point in our testing, but we are being warned in advance (by people who know) that anything at or above 18 psi of boost is definitely in the danger zone.
Anyone who goes below the 2.80" supercharger pulley size needs to understand that this is a serious risk. Rest assured that we're already working on solutions to this issue though...
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