Air Filter Testing
03-11-2014, 09:28 PM
#51
Senior Member
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: 07-20-09
Location: Platteville, WI
Posts: 5,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the heat soak is another compelling argument. My metal CP use to be pretty hot during any sort of use which sort of kills part of the efficiency of the setup as a whole. The K&N, like stated earlier, was always dirty.. I could've probably cleaned it every fuel fill-up with the amount of grime that built up in it on the bottom side of the filter over time
03-11-2014, 10:19 PM
#53
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
I use to think the same way, but being completely honest odds are heavy in my favor that the plastic will hold up just fine like it was designed to do from GM. sure you see a few stories of plastic endtanks cracking or the piping randomly crack, but how many of those people were running the 25+ psi tunes? how many times did rookies hit driveways or run a solid mounted charge pipe on stock endtanks (therefore giving no room to flex like stock pipes do) and break or even weaken their endtanks from doing so? I've never even scraped my lip over the last 2 years of ownership, let alone smash it hard enough to crack an endtank.. I find it hard to believe that any failure is occuring just from the pressure in the charge pipe, it takes a lot of stress to do that.
even so, the plastic cleans up pretty nice for what it is.. it matches the plastic on the rest of the car
the heat soak is another compelling argument. My metal CP use to be pretty hot during any sort of use which sort of kills part of the efficiency of the setup as a whole. The K&N, like stated earlier, was always dirty.. I could've probably cleaned it every fuel fill-up with the amount of grime that built up in it on the bottom side of the filter over time
even so, the plastic cleans up pretty nice for what it is.. it matches the plastic on the rest of the car
the heat soak is another compelling argument. My metal CP use to be pretty hot during any sort of use which sort of kills part of the efficiency of the setup as a whole. The K&N, like stated earlier, was always dirty.. I could've probably cleaned it every fuel fill-up with the amount of grime that built up in it on the bottom side of the filter over time
The hot side CP will be hot no matter plastic or metal you might not notice the plastic hot side being hot since the heat doesnt transfer as quickly. So from a thermodynamic stand point as long as the engine bay area temp is lower than the air charge in the hot side the metal CP will act as a heat exchanger and some transfer will occur to the environment. Now is this transfer significant, I'm going to assume no, but without sitting down and performing the calculations and knowing what temp the hot side air charge is and the surface area of both pipes, the air density per min, the air speed, it can't be calc'd (i might be missing a variable in there). I do recall a member that had issues with a blown motor and GM stated changing CP, intercooler, DP will not void warranty because they don't greatly affect the way the engine performs. But a different intake than stock will void the warranty.
May have just convinced myself to find a stock intake, pretty sure a friend of mine still has his but doenst have his LNF anymore. Side question for those with an LNF, anyway to run the stock intake and have the louder BPV and turbo sound (I know novel but I enjoy listening to my turbo spool)
03-11-2014, 11:04 PM
#54
Senior Member
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: 07-20-09
Location: Platteville, WI
Posts: 5,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with you for the most part, expect for the plastic heat soak once the plastic is hot its going to stay hot, vs the metal will transfer heat quickly drop temp or gain temp quickly compared to plastic. For the intake not a huge issue, run the stock/zzp tube just make sure the MAF tables are dialed in and have a quality filter (which this study points towards factory filters).
The hot side CP will be hot no matter plastic or metal you might not notice the plastic hot side being hot since the heat doesnt transfer as quickly. So from a thermodynamic stand point as long as the engine bay area temp is lower than the air charge in the hot side the metal CP will act as a heat exchanger and some transfer will occur to the environment. Now is this transfer significant, I'm going to assume no, but without sitting down and performing the calculations and knowing what temp the hot side air charge is and the surface area of both pipes, the air density per min, the air speed, it can't be calc'd (i might be missing a variable in there). I do recall a member that had issues with a blown motor and GM stated changing CP, intercooler, DP will not void warranty because they don't greatly affect the way the engine performs. But a different intake than stock will void the warranty.
May have just convinced myself to find a stock intake, pretty sure a friend of mine still has his but doenst have his LNF anymore. Side question for those with an LNF, anyway to run the stock intake and have the louder BPV and turbo sound (I know novel but I enjoy listening to my turbo spool)
The hot side CP will be hot no matter plastic or metal you might not notice the plastic hot side being hot since the heat doesnt transfer as quickly. So from a thermodynamic stand point as long as the engine bay area temp is lower than the air charge in the hot side the metal CP will act as a heat exchanger and some transfer will occur to the environment. Now is this transfer significant, I'm going to assume no, but without sitting down and performing the calculations and knowing what temp the hot side air charge is and the surface area of both pipes, the air density per min, the air speed, it can't be calc'd (i might be missing a variable in there). I do recall a member that had issues with a blown motor and GM stated changing CP, intercooler, DP will not void warranty because they don't greatly affect the way the engine performs. But a different intake than stock will void the warranty.
May have just convinced myself to find a stock intake, pretty sure a friend of mine still has his but doenst have his LNF anymore. Side question for those with an LNF, anyway to run the stock intake and have the louder BPV and turbo sound (I know novel but I enjoy listening to my turbo spool)
Heat Exchangers of polypropylene
in a nutshell, the above article basically clarifies that while metal is more conductive to heat (aka changes temp faster/slower) the air on both sides still has identical conductivities so the overall heat transfer rate of the piping material is really almost negligible, which makes sense as we dont really notice any IAT differences between changing charge pipes out (we shouldn't as air can only absorb so much heat on either side in a given time due to its properties).
What we do notice though during short runs during AutoX for example is the metal pipes get hot fast! (thermal conductivity to blame). it takes a long time for the same thickness of PP to get to the same temp as Steel given exact same "tests" or runs around the course in this example. just going off of the conductivity values alone tells us steel heats up 175X faster than PP (1,840X faster for aluminum). kinda nuts.. /science
03-11-2014, 11:33 PM
#55
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
I'm a senior mechanical engineering student so I enjoy the thermodynamic discussions oddly enough. Polypropylene (which I'm just going to assume is the material used in stock charge pipes) actually has a very similar overall heat transfer coefficient to steel and aluminum in an application like this although their thermal conductivities vary by quite large factors (PP=.12, Steel=21, Aluminum=221)
Heat Exchangers of polypropylene
in a nutshell, the above article basically clarifies that while metal is more conductive to heat (aka changes temp faster/slower) the air on both sides still has identical conductivities so the overall heat transfer rate of the piping material is really almost negligible, which makes sense as we dont really notice any IAT differences between changing charge pipes out (we shouldn't as air can only absorb so much heat on either side in a given time due to its properties).
What we do notice though during short runs during AutoX for example is the metal pipes get hot fast! (thermal conductivity to blame). it takes a long time for the same thickness of PP to get to the same temp as Steel given exact same "tests" or runs around the course in this example. just going off of the conductivity values alone tells us steel heats up 175X faster than PP (1,840X faster for aluminum). kinda nuts.. /science
Heat Exchangers of polypropylene
in a nutshell, the above article basically clarifies that while metal is more conductive to heat (aka changes temp faster/slower) the air on both sides still has identical conductivities so the overall heat transfer rate of the piping material is really almost negligible, which makes sense as we dont really notice any IAT differences between changing charge pipes out (we shouldn't as air can only absorb so much heat on either side in a given time due to its properties).
What we do notice though during short runs during AutoX for example is the metal pipes get hot fast! (thermal conductivity to blame). it takes a long time for the same thickness of PP to get to the same temp as Steel given exact same "tests" or runs around the course in this example. just going off of the conductivity values alone tells us steel heats up 175X faster than PP (1,840X faster for aluminum). kinda nuts.. /science
so i am known to get terms incorrect. So after all the engineering discussion, the take home difference between metal and plastic charge piping is only the burst pressure rating. Which the difference is in the range where it doesnt make a difference, can't say a recall anyone bursting a stock charge pipe (end tanks yes, but you've pointed out very valid points about why the increase in this area). And i'm not willing to test out what the stock charge pipe burst pressure is.
03-12-2014, 12:03 AM
#56
Senior Member
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: 07-20-09
Location: Platteville, WI
Posts: 5,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
basically burst pressure rating is really the only difference from what I can gather on it (obviously metals the winner of the chicken dinner there).. all i know is that the burst pressure is a factor of safety high enough on OEM pipes that I dont have any concerns blowing it on 22-23psi which is where I'm tuned at currently. I could potentially see an odd vibration or stress fatiguing the stock CP in some odd case if that rubber grommet to hold it in place on the engine isnt installed right or manufacturer defect, but thats about it at best.
whether or not people want to believe it, GM did their homework.. surprising I know
whether or not people want to believe it, GM did their homework.. surprising I know
03-12-2014, 07:14 AM
#57
Took the car out for a nice pre-spring drive yesterday....
Ran a supercharger inlet pressure test to see if the stock filter caused any more restriction then my K&N E-0777 filter I used to run. Nothing changed in my intake tract other than the filter. Stock donaldson intake with modified airbox lid is all.
K&N 0.4 inlet pressure from 6000-7500 rpm
AC Delco 0.5 inlet pressure from 6000-7500 rpm
Below 6k, both filters only showed 0.0-0.1 inlet pressure
It's a crude test, but the minute difference between the two makes me happy to know the stock filter is not a big restriction like many once believed.
Ran a supercharger inlet pressure test to see if the stock filter caused any more restriction then my K&N E-0777 filter I used to run. Nothing changed in my intake tract other than the filter. Stock donaldson intake with modified airbox lid is all.
K&N 0.4 inlet pressure from 6000-7500 rpm
AC Delco 0.5 inlet pressure from 6000-7500 rpm
Below 6k, both filters only showed 0.0-0.1 inlet pressure
It's a crude test, but the minute difference between the two makes me happy to know the stock filter is not a big restriction like many once believed.
Last edited by Staged07SS; 03-12-2014 at 07:53 AM.
03-12-2014, 11:51 PM
#58
I think I will swap back to my stock intake and do the airbox mod. Sure it may not be bling bling but I rather have a cleaner engine...plus I can always plasti-dip the intake whatever color I want lol
03-13-2014, 08:25 AM
#59
GM (donaldson) gave us a decent looking cold air intake. No ribbing or silencers on the tubing.
Also, the composite/rubber material does a much better job insulating the intake charge from the engine bay heat than the bling bling pipes.
03-13-2014, 09:20 AM
#60
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
I honestly like the look of the stock intake.
GM (donaldson) gave us a decent looking cold air intake. No ribbing or silencers on the tubing.
Also, the composite/rubber material does a much better job insulating the intake charge from the engine bay heat than the bling bling pipes.
GM (donaldson) gave us a decent looking cold air intake. No ribbing or silencers on the tubing.
Also, the composite/rubber material does a much better job insulating the intake charge from the engine bay heat than the bling bling pipes.
The reference to donaldson is that donaldson torrit?
03-13-2014, 09:27 AM
#61
The reference to donaldson is that donaldson made the stock air intake piping and air box for the SS/SC.
Last edited by Staged07SS; 03-13-2014 at 10:39 AM.
03-13-2014, 11:07 AM
#64
Senior Member
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: 07-20-09
Location: Platteville, WI
Posts: 5,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll be doing some logging on my trip home for spring break and can report back with findings..
not sure its fair to make accurate comparisons here though with IAT differences, because its 20* outside compared to 90* when I was logging my full bolt-on setup this last summer
not sure its fair to make accurate comparisons here though with IAT differences, because its 20* outside compared to 90* when I was logging my full bolt-on setup this last summer
03-13-2014, 11:30 AM
#65
basically burst pressure rating is really the only difference from what I can gather on it (obviously metals the winner of the chicken dinner there).. all i know is that the burst pressure is a factor of safety high enough on OEM pipes that I dont have any concerns blowing it on 22-23psi which is where I'm tuned at currently. I could potentially see an odd vibration or stress fatiguing the stock CP in some odd case if that rubber grommet to hold it in place on the engine isnt installed right or manufacturer defect, but thats about it at best.
whether or not people want to believe it, GM did their homework.. surprising I know
whether or not people want to believe it, GM did their homework.. surprising I know
. There's a reason everything was designed way it is. I think you're spot on with the unecessary intercooler/cp arguement too. Unless you swap turbos or are pushing the K04 past its efficient range, there's no reason to change them. Heck, I'm ZFR swapped and still on the stock cp, and plan to stay that way . The stock intercooler on the other hand has to go.On another note, I've got a K&N on my Solstice because the stock air box was awful, and the GMPP intake was an arm and a leg more, but I think I'm going to look around for paper cone filters that fit for a replacement.
03-13-2014, 11:46 AM
#66
^I've said this numerous times on this forum . There's a reason everything was designed way it is. I think you're spot on with the unecessary intercooler/cp arguement too. Unless you swap turbos or are pushing the K04 past its efficient range, there's no reason to change them. Heck, I'm ZFR swapped and still on the stock cp, and plan to stay that way . The stock intercooler on the other hand has to go.
On another note, I've got a K&N on my Solstice because the stock air box was awful, and the GMPP intake was an arm and a leg more, but I think I'm going to look around for paper cone filters that fit for a replacement.
. There's a reason everything was designed way it is. I think you're spot on with the unecessary intercooler/cp arguement too. Unless you swap turbos or are pushing the K04 past its efficient range, there's no reason to change them. Heck, I'm ZFR swapped and still on the stock cp, and plan to stay that way . The stock intercooler on the other hand has to go.On another note, I've got a K&N on my Solstice because the stock air box was awful, and the GMPP intake was an arm and a leg more, but I think I'm going to look around for paper cone filters that fit for a replacement.
There has to be a good alternative. The Amsoil EA filter look good but I believe the K&N is a 3.25" inside diameter and Amsoil doesn't make one that size.
