not a chance.

that previous tune will be so far outta wack you'll be happy if it starts and idles with a new CR.

 

And the argument continues. Which is better? Race fuel or a water methanol injection?

It's important to understand how a water methanol injection system works and how your engine can benefits from it. Depending on the application, we may still continue to use high octane racing fuels with a water methanol injection system. It all varies depending on the application.

Many times, water methanol injection is used as a tool to safely make more horsepower then you normally could on pump gas alone. Many of our customer do not want to use racing fuel as it is too expensive. So understandably, a cheaper alternative has been water methanol injection. depending on the application, everything from pure water can be ran, to a 50/50 of water methanol or many times we simply run pure methanol. At the rate it's being used, it's still very affordable to use pure methanol when the application can also be tuned for it.

As I mentioned earlier it's important to understand how a water methanol injection system actually works and how one can benefit from.

When you inject a fine mist of water/methanol mixture into the hot intake air charge of an engine, such as that of supercharged and turbocharged engine, the alcohol portion instantly begins to evaporate. This provides an instant cooling effect and in turn creates a cooler denser air charge, providing a cooler denser air charge.

Additionally, the methanol is an additional fuel and burns as part of the combustion process. With the now cooler denser air charge, the engine can also now burn more power producing fuel as well. Furthermore, the methanol is a high octane fuel substantially increasing the octane rating of premium pump gas if being used. Lastly, it helps reduce cylinder temperatures and EGT's. Not only is the air charge coming into the cylinder cooler. More importantly, methanol burns much cooler then gasoline thereby reducing combustion chamber temperatures. In turn this cools the tops or your pistons and top ring further protecting them.

It should be noted that methanol has a much lower latent heat of vaporization then water therefore it begins to evaporate much sooner and almost instantly in most cases when injected into a hot enough air charge of a supercharged or turbocharged application. This know as a phase change. A phase change as in this case is simply when a liquid is converting to a gas. In doing so it's taking on tremendous amounts of heat, dramatically cooling the air charge temperatures instantly.

Water on the other hand has a much higher latent heat of vaporization when compare to methanol. Essentially this means it requires more energy, in this case heat, to begin its phase change.

Definition of Latent Heat Of Vaporization: “latent heat” is the amount of energy in the form of heat released or absorbed by a substance during a change of phase. (i.e. solid, liquid, or gas), - also called a phase transition.

Because the energy (heat) required to turn water into a steam (begin evaporating) is substantially higher then that of alcohol. Water doesn't fully evaporate until it reaches the heat with in the cylinder, as air charge temps may or may not be hot enough or remain hot enough to support the evaporation of water. Because of it's higher latent heat of evaporation, water does not work as well as initially cooling the air charge temperature as does methanol.

However, when the water portion reaches the cylinder and the heat with in, it is there where it begins to fully evaporate. As it's making it's phase change it's taking on considerable amounts of heat. Thereby further reducing the air charge and the air/fuel mixture with in the cylinder. This helps to further cool the tops of your pistons protecting them and reducing cylinder temperatures.

Piston manufactures are constantly working on new coatings for the tops of the pistons to prevent heat transfer and improving the life and strength of the piston. A 15-20 degree drop in in piston temperature is huge. Call any of the leading piston manufactures and ask them how much cooler a piston with it's top coated runs vs a non-coated piston. It's only about 10-15 degree's. While this may seem insignificant, it makes a substantial difference in the strength of the piston. Unfortunately, were unable to determine the actual drop in piston temperature a water methanol injection system has and can only speculate based off of other indicators. None the less we have scene the limits of hypereutectic pistons fair exceed their normal power rating supporting through the use of water methanol injection.

Now unlike alcohol, water does not burn as part of the combustion process as does the evaporating gases of alcohol. When water does evaporate it turns to steam. This steam stabilizes and slows the combustion process acting as a anti-detonate (suppressing detonation) essentially making it an effective octane enhancer.

This steam also provides an increase in cylinder pressure and in theory helps provide a greater push on the piston on the power stroke creating more power. Research and test's are being performed currently to see if this steam and added pressure may be also help spool up turbochargers faster as there may be greater pressure within the exhaust. While also helping to extend the life of turbochargers through a substantial reduction in EGT's.

We have personally used pure water injection on a twin turbo, less then 300 inch engine, making 1400+ horsepower, running VP C16, to help reduce it's tendency to stretch exhaust valves due to excessive 1800+ degree exhaust heat it would see at the top end of a 3 mile Bonneville. A 200+ degree reduction in EGT's can make all the difference in the world in saving an exhaust valve and preventing the replacement of them after a run.

When we list the benefits of a water methanol injection system, stop and actually read them over and consider them. They could be important for your engine (sarcasm)

Benefits of Water Alcohol/Methanol Injection:


Lower air temperatures by 50-200+ degrees
*
Reduces cylinder temperatures by 200+ degrees
*
Increase your 87-93 pump gas by 15-20+ points
*
Increase horsepower safely by 10-15%
*
Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
*
Cools and protects the tops of your pistons
*
Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
*
Removes carbon build up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
*
Reduces & helps eliminate damaging engine detonation & pre-ignition
*
No need for expensive racing fuel or additives

 

::clicks the big X in the corner::

 

how so? for the example i was imagining from like a 10.0:1 comp to a 10.5:1 comp....nothing drastic like 9:0 to 11.5:1

 

::wow::

you've just changed every dynamic air flow and fuel feature in the engine, yet you think the old tune will work?

a.5 bump is a solid jump on cylinder pressure just for starters.

 

correct. im aware of this....under a stock tune with 87 fuel, you would get some knock...correct? whats a way to combat knock? upping the octane (or running richer or cooler IAT2 temps, or preferably all 3, but for this example im only upping the octane)
so with minor compression changes (opposed to going from 9.5:1 to 11.8:1) and a higher octane to combat the negative side effects, you would yield more horsepower. I am aware that actually tuning this new setup would yield even greater power than solely using a higher octane, but at this point im just trying to prove a point.

im completely open to learning, so if this is wrong, please explain how. This is the whole reason i joined this forum...to learn as much as i could.

 

u can build ur own meth kit for about 150 bux

 

http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=358188

sweeter difference between pump and race gas

475awhp @18psi pump to 551awhp @ 26psi on c16

He recently just hit 513awhp 530tq @ 18psi on pump too and is waiting on meth injection