All You Need to Know About Different Tunes
#151
Senior Member
I've been thinking about the LNF turbo upgrade for my 2008 SS/TC. With the new tune the torque is supposed to increase to 320 lb-ft. I was reading on wikipedia, that the F35 transmission that comes stock with the car is rated for 260 lb-ft.
Here the wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F35_%28MU3%29_transmission
Has anyone had any problems with their transmission after they have gotten this new tune or any aftermarket tune?
Here the wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F35_%28MU3%29_transmission
Has anyone had any problems with their transmission after they have gotten this new tune or any aftermarket tune?
#152
Senior Member
Every manufacturer has a rating system to determine the limits of a products performance. I've read many times that manufacturers will allow a safety factor of, in many cases, 100%. The testing on a transmission is probably a test to destruction at which point they will use 50% of that reading as the RATED power handling capability. Raising the torque output from 260 to 320 is an increase of less than 25%. So if that 100% factor were to be true the TESTED limit would have been 520. Looking at it this way 320 of a possible 520 doesn't look so bad after all. SAFETY FACTORS trump all.
Bottom line is GM isn't going to offer a 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty on something that is designed to fail. Bottom line.
Also! Your research was good but somewhere out there is an update to the power ratings stating all this. I only wish I could remember where it was.
Bottom line is GM isn't going to offer a 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty on something that is designed to fail. Bottom line.
Also! Your research was good but somewhere out there is an update to the power ratings stating all this. I only wish I could remember where it was.
#153
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I've been thinking about the LNF turbo upgrade for my 2008 SS/TC. With the new tune the torque is supposed to increase to 320 lb-ft. I was reading on wikipedia, that the F35 transmission that comes stock with the car is rated for 260 lb-ft.
Here the wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F35_%28MU3%29_transmission
Has anyone had any problems with their transmission after they have gotten this new tune or any aftermarket tune?
Here the wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F35_%28MU3%29_transmission
Has anyone had any problems with their transmission after they have gotten this new tune or any aftermarket tune?
#156
K&N air filter
If you went with a drop in K&N air filter, would it make less boost, and the same amount of power? Im only looking to add 5-10hp and this seems like an easy solution. Just wondering if anyone knows what the cheapest route would be? If i needed to get a tune I would be going real soft with the tune for longevity of the vehicle.
What do u guys think?
What do u guys think?
#158
Every manufacturer has a rating system to determine the limits of a products performance. I've read many times that manufacturers will allow a safety factor of, in many cases, 100%. The testing on a transmission is probably a test to destruction at which point they will use 50% of that reading as the RATED power handling capability. Raising the torque output from 260 to 320 is an increase of less than 25%. So if that 100% factor were to be true the TESTED limit would have been 520. Looking at it this way 320 of a possible 520 doesn't look so bad after all. SAFETY FACTORS trump all.
Bottom line is GM isn't going to offer a 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty on something that is designed to fail. Bottom line.
Also! Your research was good but somewhere out there is an update to the power ratings stating all this. I only wish I could remember where it was.
Bottom line is GM isn't going to offer a 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty on something that is designed to fail. Bottom line.
Also! Your research was good but somewhere out there is an update to the power ratings stating all this. I only wish I could remember where it was.
I'm sure the transmission testing is similar. If you hit the 100% life required to pass you are abusing the car pretty good. In every day driving must people will never approach that kind of abuse.
#159
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If you went with a drop in K&N air filter, would it make less boost, and the same amount of power? Im only looking to add 5-10hp and this seems like an easy solution. Just wondering if anyone knows what the cheapest route would be? If i needed to get a tune I would be going real soft with the tune for longevity of the vehicle.
What do u guys think?
What do u guys think?
#162
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PCN Counter what is that exactly.
I'm the most indecisive person I know, well my lady is too, but I still just can't decide between GMS1 or ZZP
Now maybe you've heard from my other threads, but the reason why I want ZZP is for the spare PCM for warranty issues.
My understanding was that having a spare PCM is impossible to find warranty issues if I switch back to stock.
So what's this PCN counter exactly.
I'm the most indecisive person I know, well my lady is too, but I still just can't decide between GMS1 or ZZP
Now maybe you've heard from my other threads, but the reason why I want ZZP is for the spare PCM for warranty issues.
My understanding was that having a spare PCM is impossible to find warranty issues if I switch back to stock.
So what's this PCN counter exactly.
#165
Hey everyone, Second post from a new Cobalt Owner ( Turbo car owner from Days of Old - GLH Omni)
so I've been reading alot on this GMS1 upgrade and a few things pop into my mind.
1. being that this upgrade is a pre-formatted burn and will not tune for peripheral add-on's like intake and downpipes or exhausts... what is everyone's thoughts on what occurs to the ECU when it senses increased flow.. does the system auto correct to some degree and you get an even more increased power output? or...
Since GMS1 advertises add on's can't be tuned for and you don't get 100% out of what you paid for... does the pre burn, since its tuned for stock components, actually degrade the performance of the car with peripherals added on?... even if some gains are seen, is there a likelyhood of CEL risk or A/F ratios being thrown off and the car knocking or running even more lean?
(I assume from reading alot of your posts, most are seeing gains with the additional add on's... but as I understand it, Turbo cars these days are much more finicky since ECU controls are so much more advanced.) plus with potential warranty issues, does GM also have intake addon's or downpipe add on's ? so far I've seen some for the SC versions.. but not for the TC... and if the car remains mostly stock.. What add on would be the best without voiding warranty AND benefit from the GMS1?
2. since it seems that there are "some" mixed results on installations, maybe as a group we could post
some type of sucessful Dealer locations map where people had good or bad experiences? ... just a thought.
thanks everyone, glad to be involved!
so I've been reading alot on this GMS1 upgrade and a few things pop into my mind.
1. being that this upgrade is a pre-formatted burn and will not tune for peripheral add-on's like intake and downpipes or exhausts... what is everyone's thoughts on what occurs to the ECU when it senses increased flow.. does the system auto correct to some degree and you get an even more increased power output? or...
Since GMS1 advertises add on's can't be tuned for and you don't get 100% out of what you paid for... does the pre burn, since its tuned for stock components, actually degrade the performance of the car with peripherals added on?... even if some gains are seen, is there a likelyhood of CEL risk or A/F ratios being thrown off and the car knocking or running even more lean?
(I assume from reading alot of your posts, most are seeing gains with the additional add on's... but as I understand it, Turbo cars these days are much more finicky since ECU controls are so much more advanced.) plus with potential warranty issues, does GM also have intake addon's or downpipe add on's ? so far I've seen some for the SC versions.. but not for the TC... and if the car remains mostly stock.. What add on would be the best without voiding warranty AND benefit from the GMS1?
2. since it seems that there are "some" mixed results on installations, maybe as a group we could post
some type of sucessful Dealer locations map where people had good or bad experiences? ... just a thought.
thanks everyone, glad to be involved!
#166
I'm a new cobalt ss tc owner and I am wondering if I am going to put full Hahn blot ons on my car and I've been Haveing trouble with deciding wether I should get a ppc tuner or just go with the infi boost tune from trifecta if anyone can give me some suggestions I would greatly appreciate it.
#167
Former Vendor
I'm a new cobalt ss tc owner and I am wondering if I am going to put full Hahn blot ons on my car and I've been Haveing trouble with deciding wether I should get a ppc tuner or just go with the infi boost tune from trifecta if anyone can give me some suggestions I would greatly appreciate it.
#168
Senior Member
PCN Counter what is that exactly.
I'm the most indecisive person I know, well my lady is too, but I still just can't decide between GMS1 or ZZP
Now maybe you've heard from my other threads, but the reason why I want ZZP is for the spare PCM for warranty issues.
My understanding was that having a spare PCM is impossible to find warranty issues if I switch back to stock.
So what's this PCN counter exactly.
I'm the most indecisive person I know, well my lady is too, but I still just can't decide between GMS1 or ZZP
Now maybe you've heard from my other threads, but the reason why I want ZZP is for the spare PCM for warranty issues.
My understanding was that having a spare PCM is impossible to find warranty issues if I switch back to stock.
So what's this PCN counter exactly.
How Does a Body Control Module Work? | eHow.com
It also records ECM installs/removals.
Hey everyone, Second post from a new Cobalt Owner ( Turbo car owner from Days of Old - GLH Omni)
so I've been reading alot on this GMS1 upgrade and a few things pop into my mind.
1. being that this upgrade is a pre-formatted burn and will not tune for peripheral add-on's like intake and downpipes or exhausts... what is everyone's thoughts on what occurs to the ECU when it senses increased flow.. does the system auto correct to some degree and you get an even more increased power output? or...
Since GMS1 advertises add on's can't be tuned for and you don't get 100% out of what you paid for... does the pre burn, since its tuned for stock components, actually degrade the performance of the car with peripherals added on?... even if some gains are seen, is there a likelyhood of CEL risk or A/F ratios being thrown off and the car knocking or running even more lean?
(I assume from reading alot of your posts, most are seeing gains with the additional add on's... but as I understand it, Turbo cars these days are much more finicky since ECU controls are so much more advanced.) plus with potential warranty issues, does GM also have intake addon's or downpipe add on's ? so far I've seen some for the SC versions.. but not for the TC... and if the car remains mostly stock.. What add on would be the best without voiding warranty AND benefit from the GMS1?
2. since it seems that there are "some" mixed results on installations, maybe as a group we could post
some type of sucessful Dealer locations map where people had good or bad experiences? ... just a thought.
thanks everyone, glad to be involved!
so I've been reading alot on this GMS1 upgrade and a few things pop into my mind.
1. being that this upgrade is a pre-formatted burn and will not tune for peripheral add-on's like intake and downpipes or exhausts... what is everyone's thoughts on what occurs to the ECU when it senses increased flow.. does the system auto correct to some degree and you get an even more increased power output? or...
Since GMS1 advertises add on's can't be tuned for and you don't get 100% out of what you paid for... does the pre burn, since its tuned for stock components, actually degrade the performance of the car with peripherals added on?... even if some gains are seen, is there a likelyhood of CEL risk or A/F ratios being thrown off and the car knocking or running even more lean?
(I assume from reading alot of your posts, most are seeing gains with the additional add on's... but as I understand it, Turbo cars these days are much more finicky since ECU controls are so much more advanced.) plus with potential warranty issues, does GM also have intake addon's or downpipe add on's ? so far I've seen some for the SC versions.. but not for the TC... and if the car remains mostly stock.. What add on would be the best without voiding warranty AND benefit from the GMS1?
2. since it seems that there are "some" mixed results on installations, maybe as a group we could post
some type of sucessful Dealer locations map where people had good or bad experiences? ... just a thought.
thanks everyone, glad to be involved!
As for dealers? Any dealer that can walk and chew gum at the same time should be able to do the install and flash. OR you can do the hardware install yourself, NO it WON'T hurt your warranty if done according to the included instructions, and have the dealer do the calibration. They are the only people that can do it because it's downloaded to your ECM directly from GM through their Tech2 diagnostic machine.
Have fun!
I'm a new cobalt ss tc owner and I am wondering if I am going to put full Hahn blot ons on my car and I've been Haveing trouble with deciding wether I should get a ppc tuner or just go with the infi boost tune from trifecta if anyone can give me some suggestions I would greatly appreciate it.
The Trifecta tune has the advantage of being switchable and is undetectable when the tune is turned off. Just don't take it to the dealer with it turned on. The mechanic might not want to give you back your car. It's WAY too much fun.
#169
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Stock:
260hp @ 5300rpm & 260lb-ft @ 2000rpm
FYI;
Stage 1 (on Cobalt):
280hp @ 4700rpm & 320lb-ft @ 4300rpm
Stage1 removes all learn downs - period.
The only things left on the stage1 versus the stock tune are as follows;
1) Turbo overspool
Originally Posted by John Heinricy-GMPD/GMTS
A. The stage 1 tune is only limited by the turbo overspeed safeties that are built into the tune. ...
...Do the GMS1 first and you might be surprised enough with the results you might forget about add ons.
...
As for dealers? Any dealer that can walk and chew gum at the same time should be able to do the install and flash. OR you can do the hardware install yourself, NO it WON'T hurt your warranty if done according to the included instructions, and have the dealer do the calibration. They are the only people that can do it because it's downloaded to your ECM directly from GM through their Tech2 diagnostic machine.
...
As for dealers? Any dealer that can walk and chew gum at the same time should be able to do the install and flash. OR you can do the hardware install yourself, NO it WON'T hurt your warranty if done according to the included instructions, and have the dealer do the calibration. They are the only people that can do it because it's downloaded to your ECM directly from GM through their Tech2 diagnostic machine.
If the dealer try's to pull some crap on you like suggesting that the whole install has to be done at the dealer, or the warranty is void with the stage kit, either politely inform (with printed information) that they are wrong, or find another dealer to do the work.
#170
Senior Member
Small correction;
Stock:
260hp @ 5300rpm & 260lb-ft @ 2000rpm
FYI;
Stage 1 (on Cobalt):
280hp @ 4700rpm & 320lb-ft @ 4300rpm
Again, small correction;
Stage1 removes all learn downs - period.
The only things left on the stage1 versus the stock tune are as follows;
1) Turbo overspool
2) Just like with any aftermarket tune, there are air/fuel tables still built into the tune ~ these tables are not specifically set up for any aftermarket part, rather, they are able to compensate for any upgrades rather than the stock tune which would do a learn dow to keep the power in check.
Exactly.
Agreed.
If the dealer try's to pull some crap on you like suggesting that the whole install has to be done at the dealer, or the warranty is void with the stage kit, either politely inform (with printed information) that they are wrong, or find another dealer to do the work.
Stock:
260hp @ 5300rpm & 260lb-ft @ 2000rpm
FYI;
Stage 1 (on Cobalt):
280hp @ 4700rpm & 320lb-ft @ 4300rpm
Again, small correction;
Stage1 removes all learn downs - period.
The only things left on the stage1 versus the stock tune are as follows;
1) Turbo overspool
2) Just like with any aftermarket tune, there are air/fuel tables still built into the tune ~ these tables are not specifically set up for any aftermarket part, rather, they are able to compensate for any upgrades rather than the stock tune which would do a learn dow to keep the power in check.
Exactly.
Agreed.
If the dealer try's to pull some crap on you like suggesting that the whole install has to be done at the dealer, or the warranty is void with the stage kit, either politely inform (with printed information) that they are wrong, or find another dealer to do the work.
But all in all thanks for the corrections and additions. I will never get bent out of shape for someone correcting my mistakes or omissions.
#171
Senior Member
Correction:
The GM stage 1 DOES NOT remove the learn down. The calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 280/HP 320/TQ just like the stock calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 260/HP 260/TQ. Some people will see bigger gains with the GM stage 1 kit over the stock tune due to aftermarket add-ons helping to hold HP/TQ in the higher RPM range.
The GM stage 1 DOES NOT remove the learn down. The calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 280/HP 320/TQ just like the stock calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 260/HP 260/TQ. Some people will see bigger gains with the GM stage 1 kit over the stock tune due to aftermarket add-ons helping to hold HP/TQ in the higher RPM range.
#172
Senior Member
Correction:
The GM stage 1 DOES NOT remove the learn down. The calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 280/HP 320/TQ just like the stock calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 260/HP 260/TQ. Some people will see bigger gains with the GM stage 1 kit over the stock tune due to aftermarket add-ons helping to hold HP/TQ in the higher RPM range.
The GM stage 1 DOES NOT remove the learn down. The calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 280/HP 320/TQ just like the stock calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 260/HP 260/TQ. Some people will see bigger gains with the GM stage 1 kit over the stock tune due to aftermarket add-ons helping to hold HP/TQ in the higher RPM range.
This is EXACTLY why I worded my post the way I did. Everybody has their own idea of what the stage 1 does and the power derived. Until you can show me creditable documentation on exactly what the stage 1 does, as it applies to, the "learn down" feature I'll continue to believe Soundjunky and I are correct. But thanks for your opinion.
#173
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Correction:
The GM stage 1 DOES NOT remove the learn down. The calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 280/HP 320/TQ just like the stock calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 260/HP 260/TQ. Some people will see bigger gains with the GM stage 1 kit over the stock tune due to aftermarket add-ons helping to hold HP/TQ in the higher RPM range.
The GM stage 1 DOES NOT remove the learn down. The calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 280/HP 320/TQ just like the stock calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 260/HP 260/TQ. Some people will see bigger gains with the GM stage 1 kit over the stock tune due to aftermarket add-ons helping to hold HP/TQ in the higher RPM range.
Here are some links that I quickly dug up from each of the two gentlemen related to the stage1 release;
Bill
John - I quickly skimmed this one, and he doesn't refer to the learn down - but I'm at work, and can't scour the internet for any comments he made right now...
Other related thread links;
Intake thread - related to Stage1/2
prelim Stage 2 post;
...the new reflash will also remove the “learn-down” of the factory PCM so that all of your aftermarket modifications will be allowed to make the power you expect them to make. ...
in for replies.
#174
It's removed from the point of view that you can reap the benefits of mods. Typically during tuning, these airloads are simply set to levels that it cannot achieve, so it will always try its hardest to get to them. This allows mods to have an effect, as it allows the engine to get closer to achieving the goal. With the GMS1 kit, the ECU does this within reason, as it still has the turbo overspeed safeguards in place.
It's not removed from the point of view that the ECU targets set airloads. That's just how it's hardcoded to think of things and that cannot be removed, even with aftermarket tuning. The engine has to know what to shoot for.
It's not removed from the point of view that the ECU targets set airloads. That's just how it's hardcoded to think of things and that cannot be removed, even with aftermarket tuning. The engine has to know what to shoot for.
#175
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
I understand what you just said - but to any newbie, you just contradicted a prior post (quoting in reverse);
See what I'm getting at?
I have read this time and again here, and simply wish to help alleviate confusion on the subject;
I think learn down is a term that cannot be applied to Stage1 cars;
instead another term needs to be implemented that alludes to the ECM not fully knowing what to do... (I just don't have a two-syllable word which would encapsulate this);
Stock+bolt on's = learndown = stock power peaks (albeit moved in RPM range)
Stage1+bolt on's = power gains < Tuned+bolt on's = fully optimized power gains
(the only variable being the tuner, or "tune")
It's removed from the point of view that you can reap the benefits of mods. Typically during tuning, these airloads are simply set to levels that it cannot achieve, so it will always try its hardest to get to them. This allows mods to have an effect, as it allows the engine to get closer to achieving the goal. With the GMS1 kit, the ECU does this within reason, as it still has the turbo overspeed safeguards in place. ...
I have read this time and again here, and simply wish to help alleviate confusion on the subject;
I think learn down is a term that cannot be applied to Stage1 cars;
instead another term needs to be implemented that alludes to the ECM not fully knowing what to do... (I just don't have a two-syllable word which would encapsulate this);
Stock+bolt on's = learndown = stock power peaks (albeit moved in RPM range)
Stage1+bolt on's = power gains < Tuned+bolt on's = fully optimized power gains
(the only variable being the tuner, or "tune")