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All You Need to Know About Different Tunes

2.0L LNF Performance Tech 260hp and 260 lb-ft of torque Turbocharged tuner version.

All You Need to Know About Different Tunes

Old 08-02-2010, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mhospod View Post
I've been thinking about the LNF turbo upgrade for my 2008 SS/TC. With the new tune the torque is supposed to increase to 320 lb-ft. I was reading on wikipedia, that the F35 transmission that comes stock with the car is rated for 260 lb-ft.

Here the wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F35_%28MU3%29_transmission

Has anyone had any problems with their transmission after they have gotten this new tune or any aftermarket tune?
No ZZP is the only ones that have shattered a trans (other than a few who have done it durning a NLS) ZZPs car was making ~500 whp when it happened.
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Old 08-02-2010, 04:17 PM
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Every manufacturer has a rating system to determine the limits of a products performance. I've read many times that manufacturers will allow a safety factor of, in many cases, 100%. The testing on a transmission is probably a test to destruction at which point they will use 50% of that reading as the RATED power handling capability. Raising the torque output from 260 to 320 is an increase of less than 25%. So if that 100% factor were to be true the TESTED limit would have been 520. Looking at it this way 320 of a possible 520 doesn't look so bad after all. SAFETY FACTORS trump all.

Bottom line is GM isn't going to offer a 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty on something that is designed to fail. Bottom line.

Also! Your research was good but somewhere out there is an update to the power ratings stating all this. I only wish I could remember where it was.
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Old 08-08-2010, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mhospod View Post
I've been thinking about the LNF turbo upgrade for my 2008 SS/TC. With the new tune the torque is supposed to increase to 320 lb-ft. I was reading on wikipedia, that the F35 transmission that comes stock with the car is rated for 260 lb-ft.

Here the wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F35_%28MU3%29_transmission

Has anyone had any problems with their transmission after they have gotten this new tune or any aftermarket tune?
These transmissions are not bad and besides ZZP I don't think that any of the hundreds of SS/TC's running around with tunes either GMS1, Trifecta, HP..... with torque over 300ft/lbs have had issues.
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Old 08-14-2010, 09:36 PM
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This thread was helpful thanks guys.
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Old 08-15-2010, 03:46 AM
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Awesome!
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:49 PM
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K&N air filter

If you went with a drop in K&N air filter, would it make less boost, and the same amount of power? Im only looking to add 5-10hp and this seems like an easy solution. Just wondering if anyone knows what the cheapest route would be? If i needed to get a tune I would be going real soft with the tune for longevity of the vehicle.

What do u guys think?
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:03 PM
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You wont get 5-10 hp on a drop in filter... possibly 1 hp??
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by buellfooll View Post
Every manufacturer has a rating system to determine the limits of a products performance. I've read many times that manufacturers will allow a safety factor of, in many cases, 100%. The testing on a transmission is probably a test to destruction at which point they will use 50% of that reading as the RATED power handling capability. Raising the torque output from 260 to 320 is an increase of less than 25%. So if that 100% factor were to be true the TESTED limit would have been 520. Looking at it this way 320 of a possible 520 doesn't look so bad after all. SAFETY FACTORS trump all.

Bottom line is GM isn't going to offer a 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty on something that is designed to fail. Bottom line.

Also! Your research was good but somewhere out there is an update to the power ratings stating all this. I only wish I could remember where it was.
This is true. I used to be a test engineer at an axle manufacture and they had a test similar to a neutral drop. I forget the calculations but its the engines max torque combined with the 1st gear ratio and 4LO ratio. The input that torque into the pinion. To pass it had to for 240 forward and 120 reverse hits. It wasn't uncommon to get into the 450 total hit range before the spider gears broke.

I'm sure the transmission testing is similar. If you hit the 100% life required to pass you are abusing the car pretty good. In every day driving must people will never approach that kind of abuse.
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 09Victory View Post
If you went with a drop in K&N air filter, would it make less boost, and the same amount of power? Im only looking to add 5-10hp and this seems like an easy solution. Just wondering if anyone knows what the cheapest route would be? If i needed to get a tune I would be going real soft with the tune for longevity of the vehicle.

What do u guys think?
First of all you would never notice 5-10 extra horsepower, and second of all our cars learn down any bolt on without a tune. If you want a little more grunt in the mid range then an aftermarket downpipe is what you are looking for.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:09 PM
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Any tuners close to Wichita KS?? I requent there.
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Old 09-19-2010, 12:21 PM
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nice write up
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Old 09-26-2010, 10:09 AM
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PCN Counter what is that exactly.

I'm the most indecisive person I know, well my lady is too, but I still just can't decide between GMS1 or ZZP

Now maybe you've heard from my other threads, but the reason why I want ZZP is for the spare PCM for warranty issues.

My understanding was that having a spare PCM is impossible to find warranty issues if I switch back to stock.

So what's this PCN counter exactly.
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:38 PM
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thoughts on the maf relocate kit?
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:12 AM
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That helps out alot
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Old 12-19-2010, 12:45 PM
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Hey everyone, Second post from a new Cobalt Owner ( Turbo car owner from Days of Old - GLH Omni)

so I've been reading alot on this GMS1 upgrade and a few things pop into my mind.

1. being that this upgrade is a pre-formatted burn and will not tune for peripheral add-on's like intake and downpipes or exhausts... what is everyone's thoughts on what occurs to the ECU when it senses increased flow.. does the system auto correct to some degree and you get an even more increased power output? or...

Since GMS1 advertises add on's can't be tuned for and you don't get 100% out of what you paid for... does the pre burn, since its tuned for stock components, actually degrade the performance of the car with peripherals added on?... even if some gains are seen, is there a likelyhood of CEL risk or A/F ratios being thrown off and the car knocking or running even more lean?

(I assume from reading alot of your posts, most are seeing gains with the additional add on's... but as I understand it, Turbo cars these days are much more finicky since ECU controls are so much more advanced.) plus with potential warranty issues, does GM also have intake addon's or downpipe add on's ? so far I've seen some for the SC versions.. but not for the TC... and if the car remains mostly stock.. What add on would be the best without voiding warranty AND benefit from the GMS1?

2. since it seems that there are "some" mixed results on installations, maybe as a group we could post
some type of sucessful Dealer locations map where people had good or bad experiences? ... just a thought.

thanks everyone, glad to be involved!
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:50 AM
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I'm a new cobalt ss tc owner and I am wondering if I am going to put full Hahn blot ons on my car and I've been Haveing trouble with deciding wether I should get a ppc tuner or just go with the infi boost tune from trifecta if anyone can give me some suggestions I would greatly appreciate it.
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SpOogAnaTer454 View Post
I'm a new cobalt ss tc owner and I am wondering if I am going to put full Hahn blot ons on my car and I've been Haveing trouble with deciding wether I should get a ppc tuner or just go with the infi boost tune from trifecta if anyone can give me some suggestions I would greatly appreciate it.
The PPC tuner is obsolete. It may have been useful when there was nothing else available. Now you can do a lot more with HP Tuners for less money.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by vahdyx View Post
PCN Counter what is that exactly.

I'm the most indecisive person I know, well my lady is too, but I still just can't decide between GMS1 or ZZP

Now maybe you've heard from my other threads, but the reason why I want ZZP is for the spare PCM for warranty issues.

My understanding was that having a spare PCM is impossible to find warranty issues if I switch back to stock.

So what's this PCN counter exactly.
If you're referring to the "BCM" read here.

How Does a Body Control Module Work? | eHow.com

It also records ECM installs/removals.

Originally Posted by MajorCB View Post
Hey everyone, Second post from a new Cobalt Owner ( Turbo car owner from Days of Old - GLH Omni)

so I've been reading alot on this GMS1 upgrade and a few things pop into my mind.

1. being that this upgrade is a pre-formatted burn and will not tune for peripheral add-on's like intake and downpipes or exhausts... what is everyone's thoughts on what occurs to the ECU when it senses increased flow.. does the system auto correct to some degree and you get an even more increased power output? or...

Since GMS1 advertises add on's can't be tuned for and you don't get 100% out of what you paid for... does the pre burn, since its tuned for stock components, actually degrade the performance of the car with peripherals added on?... even if some gains are seen, is there a likelyhood of CEL risk or A/F ratios being thrown off and the car knocking or running even more lean?

(I assume from reading alot of your posts, most are seeing gains with the additional add on's... but as I understand it, Turbo cars these days are much more finicky since ECU controls are so much more advanced.) plus with potential warranty issues, does GM also have intake addon's or downpipe add on's ? so far I've seen some for the SC versions.. but not for the TC... and if the car remains mostly stock.. What add on would be the best without voiding warranty AND benefit from the GMS1?

2. since it seems that there are "some" mixed results on installations, maybe as a group we could post
some type of sucessful Dealer locations map where people had good or bad experiences? ... just a thought.

thanks everyone, glad to be involved!
The stock SS from the factory has an ECM that "relearns" back to the stock 290 HP/ 290 torque. Add ons won't help you a bit. The GM tune while it adds HP/Torque to an otherwise stock engine it, sort of, removes the "learn down" which will allow you to keep any power increases you might get from add ons. It does NOT actually TUNE FOR add ons. It just allows them to work. Do the GMS1 first and you might be surprised enough with the results you might forget about add ons. Check my sig. I've NEVER gotten a cel. I've had the car on Homestead/Miami road course, Sebring and several times to the drag strip. ZERO PROBLEMS! I'm planing for Atlanta in the spring.

As for dealers? Any dealer that can walk and chew gum at the same time should be able to do the install and flash. OR you can do the hardware install yourself, NO it WON'T hurt your warranty if done according to the included instructions, and have the dealer do the calibration. They are the only people that can do it because it's downloaded to your ECM directly from GM through their Tech2 diagnostic machine.

Have fun!

Originally Posted by SpOogAnaTer454 View Post
I'm a new cobalt ss tc owner and I am wondering if I am going to put full Hahn blot ons on my car and I've been Haveing trouble with deciding wether I should get a ppc tuner or just go with the infi boost tune from trifecta if anyone can give me some suggestions I would greatly appreciate it.
There are many other manufacturers out there for SS performance parts. Do some research and I think you'll be able to save a lot of money. There is a LOT of info on this forum.

The Trifecta tune has the advantage of being switchable and is undetectable when the tune is turned off. Just don't take it to the dealer with it turned on. The mechanic might not want to give you back your car. It's WAY too much fun.
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by buellfooll View Post
...
The stock SS from the factory has an ECM that "relearns" back to the stock 290 HP/ 290 torque.
Small correction;
Stock:
260hp @ 5300rpm & 260lb-ft @ 2000rpm

FYI;
Stage 1 (on Cobalt):
280hp @ 4700rpm & 320lb-ft @ 4300rpm

Originally Posted by buellfooll View Post
...Add ons won't help you a bit. The GM tune while it adds HP/Torque to an otherwise stock engine it, sort of, removes the "learn down" which will allow you to keep any power increases you might get from add ons.
Again, small correction;
Stage1 removes all learn downs - period.
The only things left on the stage1 versus the stock tune are as follows;
1) Turbo overspool
Originally Posted by John Heinricy-GMPD/GMTS
A. The stage 1 tune is only limited by the turbo overspeed safeties that are built into the tune. ...
2) Just like with any aftermarket tune, there are air/fuel tables still built into the tune ~ these tables are not specifically set up for any aftermarket part, rather, they are able to compensate for any upgrades rather than the stock tune which would do a learn dow to keep the power in check.

Originally Posted by buellfooll View Post
...It does NOT actually TUNE FOR add ons. It just allows them to work.
Exactly.

Originally Posted by buellfooll View Post
...Do the GMS1 first and you might be surprised enough with the results you might forget about add ons.
...
As for dealers? Any dealer that can walk and chew gum at the same time should be able to do the install and flash. OR you can do the hardware install yourself, NO it WON'T hurt your warranty if done according to the included instructions, and have the dealer do the calibration. They are the only people that can do it because it's downloaded to your ECM directly from GM through their Tech2 diagnostic machine.
Agreed.

If the dealer try's to pull some crap on you like suggesting that the whole install has to be done at the dealer, or the warranty is void with the stage kit, either politely inform (with printed information) that they are wrong, or find another dealer to do the work.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by soundjunky View Post
Small correction;
Stock:
260hp @ 5300rpm & 260lb-ft @ 2000rpm

FYI;
Stage 1 (on Cobalt):
280hp @ 4700rpm & 320lb-ft @ 4300rpm



Again, small correction;
Stage1 removes all learn downs - period.
The only things left on the stage1 versus the stock tune are as follows;
1) Turbo overspool

2) Just like with any aftermarket tune, there are air/fuel tables still built into the tune ~ these tables are not specifically set up for any aftermarket part, rather, they are able to compensate for any upgrades rather than the stock tune which would do a learn dow to keep the power in check.



Exactly.



Agreed.

If the dealer try's to pull some crap on you like suggesting that the whole install has to be done at the dealer, or the warranty is void with the stage kit, either politely inform (with printed information) that they are wrong, or find another dealer to do the work.
I think the 290/290 was a bit of wishful thinking. As for the stage 1 output, according to, damn i can't remember his name, on GMTunersource, the reason the Cobalt application is rated lower than the other applications is due to the differences in the the way the air intake system is mounted and the parts needed . Get rid of the convoluted tube in the stock system and replace it with a quality aftermarket system using a smooth tube to get the same gains as the others. I used the term "sort of" to prevent the arguments associated with the topic. I DO believe your version and after driving the stage 1 many people will decide that is as much performance as they need. It's worth the bucks for the smile factor. IMHO

But all in all thanks for the corrections and additions. I will never get bent out of shape for someone correcting my mistakes or omissions.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:23 AM
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Correction:

The GM stage 1 DOES NOT remove the learn down. The calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 280/HP 320/TQ just like the stock calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 260/HP 260/TQ. Some people will see bigger gains with the GM stage 1 kit over the stock tune due to aftermarket add-ons helping to hold HP/TQ in the higher RPM range.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by rnjmur View Post
Correction:

The GM stage 1 DOES NOT remove the learn down. The calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 280/HP 320/TQ just like the stock calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 260/HP 260/TQ. Some people will see bigger gains with the GM stage 1 kit over the stock tune due to aftermarket add-ons helping to hold HP/TQ in the higher RPM range.
..."Add ons won't help you a bit. The GM tune while it adds HP/Torque to an otherwise stock engine it, sort of, removes the "learn down" which will allow you to keep any power increases you might get from add ons."

This is EXACTLY why I worded my post the way I did. Everybody has their own idea of what the stage 1 does and the power derived. Until you can show me creditable documentation on exactly what the stage 1 does, as it applies to, the "learn down" feature I'll continue to believe Soundjunky and I are correct. But thanks for your opinion.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rnjmur View Post
Correction:

The GM stage 1 DOES NOT remove the learn down. The calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 280/HP 320/TQ just like the stock calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 260/HP 260/TQ. Some people will see bigger gains with the GM stage 1 kit over the stock tune due to aftermarket add-ons helping to hold HP/TQ in the higher RPM range.
Both Bill and John from GM Performance division has posted exactly the opposite - are you then suggesting they're both lying?

Here are some links that I quickly dug up from each of the two gentlemen related to the stage1 release;

Bill

John - I quickly skimmed this one, and he doesn't refer to the learn down - but I'm at work, and can't scour the internet for any comments he made right now...

Other related thread links;

Intake thread - related to Stage1/2

prelim Stage 2 post
;
...the new reflash will also remove the “learn-down” of the factory PCM so that all of your aftermarket modifications will be allowed to make the power you expect them to make. ...
I realize that not everyone is going to agree on everything, and I'm cool with that, but I don't get where GM is behind saying that he lean down is removed, but people here seem to keep sayings something to the effect of "nah, it's still there"...

in for replies.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:06 PM
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It's removed from the point of view that you can reap the benefits of mods. Typically during tuning, these airloads are simply set to levels that it cannot achieve, so it will always try its hardest to get to them. This allows mods to have an effect, as it allows the engine to get closer to achieving the goal. With the GMS1 kit, the ECU does this within reason, as it still has the turbo overspeed safeguards in place.

It's not removed from the point of view that the ECU targets set airloads. That's just how it's hardcoded to think of things and that cannot be removed, even with aftermarket tuning. The engine has to know what to shoot for.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:58 PM
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I understand what you just said - but to any newbie, you just contradicted a prior post (quoting in reverse);

Originally Posted by Stamina View Post
It's removed from the point of view that you can reap the benefits of mods. Typically during tuning, these airloads are simply set to levels that it cannot achieve, so it will always try its hardest to get to them. This allows mods to have an effect, as it allows the engine to get closer to achieving the goal. With the GMS1 kit, the ECU does this within reason, as it still has the turbo overspeed safeguards in place. ...
Originally Posted by rnjmur View Post
Correction:

The GM stage 1 DOES NOT remove the learn down. The calculated airload tables are set to limit torque to 280/HP 320/TQ ...
See what I'm getting at?

I have read this time and again here, and simply wish to help alleviate confusion on the subject;

I think learn down is a term that cannot be applied to Stage1 cars;
instead another term needs to be implemented that alludes to the ECM not fully knowing what to do... (I just don't have a two-syllable word which would encapsulate this);

Stock+bolt on's = learndown = stock power peaks (albeit moved in RPM range)

Stage1+bolt on's = power gains < Tuned+bolt on's = fully optimized power gains
(the only variable being the tuner, or "tune")

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