All you ever hear about is this Sob story how they have to prove something to everyone and everyone thinks they suck so they have to try to make customers look stupid, and make everyone else look wrong (because we all know that ZZP has to always be right, its the only way).

If they actually proved something, instead of just saying they are right, maybe id listen...

As of right now though i just tell people to stay away from them.

 

Effective octane of the mixture. the actual gas octane level does not change. The effective octane of the mixture in the combustion chamber does. As you said earlier in one of your mildly correct parts the water gets evenly distributed and mixed into the gas when alcohol is present (anything that ends in an -ol rally). This mixture then has a new effective octane rating.

 

Gasoline is 2,2,4-trimethylpentane. It is what's called a branched alkane. The petroleum industry calls it "isooctane" inappropriately. Shorthand, it is CH3CH(CH3)CH2C(CH3)2CH3

Ethanol is a straight-chain alcohol, and its molecular formula is C2H5OH. Its empirical formula is C2H6O

Isopropyl alcohol is C3H8O and is a secondary alcohol, where the alcohol carbon is attached to two other carbons.

Methanol is the simplest alcohol of the 3. It's 2 CH3OH + 3 O2 → 2 CO2 + 4 H2O

Methanol is the lightest with the lest amount of energy per gallon making it tricky to use without a secondary pump. Because of the amount needed, the cooling effect is greatest.

What is the main objective of spraying alcohol?

As I stated before, I have thick skin. I've been through the newbie thing on clubGP with everyone mocking me for saying WI doesn't work and telling me they'll never buy from ZZP, and that I'm my own worst enemy. I also know what comes after that and in time you'll see as well. I don't think you'll be so quick to talk about looking bad when records are being broken, pricing of common items is dropping, and custom parts available only at ZZP become popular. Someday people will revive threads like this and be amazed at the conversations that took place. Just give it time...
Technically it would be a solution if you added alcohol and a mixture if you just added water to gas with no alcohol (assuming in the tank). But you are correct in asserting the octane of the solution would be higher. Unfortunately raising octane with a non combustable material cannot provide gains anymore than adding CO2 can.

You need two components for combustion, fuel and oxygen. If you understand why nitrous oxide works, then you understand why CO2 doesn't. If you understand why CO2 doesn't work, then you should understand why water doesn't work.


How's that workin for ya
"hey, don't buy from ZZP cause they don't like water injection"

 

No. its...

Look at these threads where ZZP constantly barges in, and fights with costumers, over stuff that everyone else proves wrong or disagrees with but them.

They can do the deciding for themselves once i show em the threads you got locked.

 

lol I'll be looking back and be amazed how big of an ass a ex vendor could have been.


as of yet, you still have never responded to any of my posts about proof..... those questions have been dodged for month, so imo, you're talking out your ass..

either or, I'm done even trying to argue, or prove. But if you want some, come on out to NY we can hit the dyno and the track any time.

 

And yes, threads YOU have gotten locked...

There are threads that would still be open if you wouldnt have decided that your just going to tell everyone they are wrong, and that everyone else is wrong they have listened to or experienced with.

ONe of the moderators even posted about teh pure awe he was in seeing what you had to say to customers, and how you have slandered your name by just posting...

There is not ONE person who has agreed with you through out ALL of your arguments, other than people who work at ZZP, who say just as useless as stuff as teh last.

If one person, who is noted here to be somewhat knowledgeable about our cars, said one thing that you guys agree upon, Youd have a argument..

when in fact... no one has agreed with you, about anything you have said... Im no where near being a mechanic and half of the **** you say sounds far fetched...

Cant you just go away and stop bothering us?

 

So no one has agree with anything I've said huh?
Explain how two people can say two opposite things both trying to prove me wrong and you support them both simply because they are debating with ME. At that point, it isn't a discussion about the science, it's about proving me wrong.

If one person says water doesn't raise the octane and one says it does, they can't both prove me wrong.

If one person says that water, alcohol and gas do not form a solution and another says it does, how can both people be proving me wrong?

If someone says that water with additional timing makes more HP but someone else says it only makes a better toque curve, how can they both be proving me wrong?

The list goes on and on but many of you (Shortstack) are no longer interesting in discussing science, performance, math, dyno's, etc. Instead you want to name call and repeat the same misinformed points as if repetition makes them true. You actually used a tactic called Ad Populum. Many people believed the world was flat for the same reason.

Finally after calling me names, telling me I'm stupid, refusing to offer up meaningful discussion and telling me to get lost, you have the nerve to claim that I'm responsible for getting threads locked and acting childish. Amazing...
Look back through 5 pages of posting. There aren't any with me degrading any of you guys, what you will see is the opposite laced with "why are you being an ass"? For what saying water injection doesn't work? That makes me an ass?

I'm pointed out fact after fact, cited example, listed out the science, offered $1000 to prove my point. What do you say in return? "We proved you wrong" How? Becaue you posted more? Why do you ignore the threads I showed from 2002? Why do you dismiss the $1000 I'm putting up? Why do you flame me for disagreeing with you?

Why would I come to NY? Offer me a $1000 and I will. Same as what I'm offering you.

 

Actually I will throw the flag down on this one...

ZZP is completely right about everything thus far, I have been following the thread from the beginning and only until now, have I decided to chime in. I think some of the things Zooomer has been saying people may not understand completely, then those people go off and make assumptions on it. But that is neither here nor there. I have to give props to ZZP and Zooomer for standing their ground on giving the FACTS. Please realize they are not trying to make fun of you, or even call you wrong. Rather, Zooomer has taken the time to get technical and explain the nitty gritty facts, chemical compositions, and physics of it all to try and SHOW people not how they are wrong, but how they can make a better choice. Now I am not going to restate any facts, Zooomer has done this already over and over, yet no one seems to get it.

Bottom line what Zooomer is trying to say:

You will always make more power with a completely combustable mixture (IE: Gasoline with methanol) over a semi combustable mixture such as gasoline with methanol and WATER, yet still maintaing all of the benefits (IE: higher octane, cooler intake charge).

 

1 - Show me where i called you a name "in this thread "... i no longer feel the need to call you anything for a point, makes me look stupid.

2 - You have your point, they have theirs.. This is theory. Do you know what people do about their theories? They test them.. you have yet to have tested yours and prove to use that what you say goes... We have tons of dynos showing that after getting meth installed + a tune, we have seen a jump in horse power.. we have our proof, where is yours?

3. No one said water raises octane.. if you may be so kind to re-read where you see that, We have overly stated that like a higher rated octane fuel, it will be less susceptible to burning due to there being a chemical that inhibits the burning (the definition of octane)... in which case, we are using water, not octane.

4. They are both proving your wrong because: The additional timing down low, which they could not run before, is raising theire torque... Even if the other is saying that they saw a increase in HP.. they both obviously saw gains, which you are pretending never happened... 2 people seeing a gain, vs 1 saying they didnt see anything...

Well if thats what zoomer is trying to say, then whats up with this 1000 dollar challenge?

the challenge says that a car without meth inj will make more power than one with it, he didnt say anything about having to use water...

You think they are facts.. if they are facts.. prove them..
and not just by throwing up some equation and saying "thats proof"...

If you want to make your point, dont do it on someone elses thread like you have done EVERY single time..

if people want to follow you and your beliefs, they should... If they dont, they dont...

Instead of trying to prove to us using formulas, and things of the sort... Show us with a car.. show us something with some type of backing behind it...

Were obviously stubborn, and feel how we feel about the subject... You should understand that, and either respect it, or show us something to prove us wrong.

 

I didnt check you truck mods. Now i did. You agree with zoomer? forget this thread, zoomer needs a transplant. Based on your truck, you dont. Anyway based on zoomers terrific on forum winning personality, any potential customers are leaving. me too.

 

Yes, I do agree with Zooomer from my experience, and thank you very much for the compliments qwik, I appreciate it. I will try and dig up my old dyno sheets for you guys from my truck prior to my latest motor build when I started using methanol with water, I then ran 100% methanol with my old build and continue to do so with the new setup. I did see more power with just methanol.

The main benefit with NOT running water was it's a completely combustable mixture with more potential energy than a mixture with water. I also got the cooler intake charge along with it as well as a higher octane rating so I can run more timing. Keep in mind that my truck is not a daily driver and I am using methanol to squeek out every last bit of power with it and run very high timing. My blower is well outside of its effiency range, but on a decently large CID motor, 7 lbs is not all that much and had I not gone with such a small one, I wouldn't have any boost pressure. New for my setup is also a dry 50 shot of nitrous (may actually go up to a 100 shot) pre-blower to increase the intake charge even more (I have not finished the rear end yet though, so I have not been able to dyno it yet with the nitrous, hence also why I may go with a 100 shot, it depends on the changes I see).

 

From iv seen zoomer keeps saying straight water, Nobody runs straight water. Making his whole logic out of place.

We are taking about 50/50 meth injection. And a 50/50 mix with a tune will see gains, Its been proven a million times. Straight water probably wont though... Which is what your little $1000 challenge sounds like, Straight water injection vs nothing. Not 50/50 water and meth mix vs nothing

 

Hi,

I haven't purchased my meth injection kit yet nor have I ever tuned for it (yet). My understanding of why you would mix methanol with water was that the methanol would increase octane and allow for advancing your timing and the water was for its cooling effects on the intake air temperature. Is this not correct?

Edit: I think I also read somewhere that methanol is corrosive and it helps to dilute it? I guess that would make more sense if you were sharing the windshield washer tank and were also spraying the liquid onto your windshield and paint? I dunno.. trying to learn here.

 

What is the best methanol too use...Windsheild Washer fluid, Heet/water, Straight meth + Water?????

 

I know as well as Zooomer knows we aren't talking about straight water. However, the original argument was a 2.6" pulley with 50/50 injection vs. a larger pulley (say 3.0"). There are multiple things to take into account with this, let me try and break it down as best as I can, and simply:


2.6" with 50/50 injection
----------------------------
Advantages:
- More boost
- Cooler intake charge (with the use of the 50/50 injection)
- More timing (higher octane, but at the cost of the potential energy because water is not combustable)

Disadvantages:
- HUGE parasitic (HP) draw to operate the blower at that RPM
- High temperatures (yes it contradicts itself with the use of 50/50 injection, but they are still way higher than at low boost)
- The water quenches combustion (not to the point of where it is no longer combustable though)


3.0"
-----
Advantages:
- Very cool intake charge (inherently)
- More timing than the above setup
- You can run much leaner and SAFELY (leaner always equates into more power, but always at the cost of the reliability to the motor)
- Less parasitic (HP) draw to operate (more power left over for the motor)
- Not quenching combustion (IE: not reducing the potential energy, or more power)

Disadvantages:
- Lower boost (however, you don't have the negative affects of parasitic loss or the heat)


As it was shown previously, here is the efficiency graphs directly from Eaton and Magnuson:





You can see in the first picture, top, that the volumetric efficiency goes down with more boost (and less volume means less power). Also you can see in the first picture, bottom, that the inlet flow is higher, this is because it is directly proportional to the volumetric efficiency, so in other words, this means although you have lower boost, you are still feeding the motor more air and a denser charge.

Now look at the second picture, top, you can see the HUGE increase in temperature associated with running just 5 lbs more or double the boost. With those kinds of temperatures you need to retard timing, and a lot of it! Second picture, bottom, you see the power required to operate the blower at that boost level, roughly 10 HP more (35 HP vs. 25 HP) than running half as much boost (10 lbs vs. 5 lbs).

Couple all of these negative effects (less volumetric efficiency, less inlet flow, higher temperatures, and high HP costs to operate the blower), there is a point where diminishing returns comes into play. Unfortunately no matter how much 50/50 injection you have, it will not negate these effects. I've seen it myself with my truck. I seriously am going to try and dig up my dyno comparisons. This is also why I am having to run the nitrous.

 

Im not arguing with you guys, mainly because its not worth my time to try and prove everything. But il leave you with this, If meth is so useless as you guys claim why has it been used in f/i cars many many years with excellent results?

You can pull all the flow graphs you want but it doesn't mean power cant be made on meth because it can. Im sorry i dont believe you when there are hundreds of cars proving otherwise.


Thats exactly what it does, Check this out if you want to learn more hoe meth injection works, Linky

 

Are these from the Gen V M62?

 

If you read what we are saying, and not what other people seem to mistake it for- you would see that at no point have we ever stated or implied that meth doesn't work. Of course it works or else drag cars would not be running on methanol. We have stated repeatedly that meth works and water does not. The real issue is that people constantly confuse the two. Yes, as silly as it sounds, for some reason people confuse methanol with water when it comes to spraying it in their motor. Don't ask me how, but it happens non stop. People talk about their new meth kit and how much power they heard about this Mustang picking up with it, then they proceed to fill the tank with water or washer fluid and figure its all good. When we try to explain why their setup is not going to be the key to big HP gains, we end up right back here with people talking about cars that run on Methanol.

 

Yes, that is for the Gen V M62s.

Matt M nailed it right on. Methanol works, water not so much.

 

I somewhat see the point your trying to make, But a water/meth mix will gain power also, Maybe not as much as straight meth, But will still gain power. The water helps cool things down so its totally useless. Plus (atleast from my understanding) a water/meth mix is allot safer than straight meth.

My point is you guys seem to think if its not straight meth its useless, And that is not true at all.

 

A point of my thread is that the discussion of 'water injection' 'meth injection' 'meth' ect is drastically confused. People discussing 'meth injection' in this forum are NEVER spraying straight methanol, yet it called 'meth injection'.

Understand that there is NO correlation between water and alcohol. One of my points (yes there are many) is that without a distinction between the two, the discussion is meaningless. It's like calling something an "oxide injection kit" and arguing as to whether it works with some people saying 'of course nitrous makes power, everyone knows that' yet with the majority of the audience spraying carbon dioxide. Adding to it, we start debating on the mixture of carbon dioxide vs. nitrous oxide as if there is some 'perfect mixture'. well guess what? there is. ZERO water or ZERO carbon dioxide.

For the sake of the Cobalt market, I think it's safe to say that most people run blue washer fluid and if you reference back to my posts ALL of them discuss water or the blue washer fluid. In fact the $1000 challenge references this as well. Blue washer fluid is 20% methanol and 80% water (approx, depending on brand), better washer fluid, as pointed out by a member here, is 1/3 methanol and 2/3 water. This is still a problem as any water reduces power.

----side bar---- (yes, you could run 90% methanol and 10% water and see gains because the reduction in power from the water would be so small compared to the gain in power from the methanol assuming increased boost/timing)

Back to it - ALL of the kits that I have see advertised in this market do not support solutions over 50% methanol. Over that and the parts fail. This makes them nearly usesless unless you installed them on a turbo setup as a safety device. now if you had an alcohol injection system running pure alky, it would be sweet. you could fill it with E85 for cheap and gain power/safety

 

Sorry. You are wrong

http://www.magnusonproducts.com/mp62.htm

That is data for the Generation 4 M62.

 

Wait! One of their graphs dont match up?! NO WAY!!!!



Ok now im just being a smart ass, im done

 

Yes, you are correct. I am sorry about that.

 

I understand your point. But your message would be a lot more effective if you could find the same info about the Gen V M62. Because then we could compare numbers based off how fast the blower is spinning.

Here is a cute little graph someone on RLFs made